Federal 38gr or 40gr 275rnd - 2 for 20 @ Dick's

[Yarome]

Anyone interested and near a Dick's sporting goods. They are having an unpublished in-store only deal until the 11th.

Federal .22 LR 36gr copper HP's or 40gr target (lead) .... 2 - 275rnd boxes for $20 (just shy of $.04/rnd).

The only place I know of that even comes close to that is Cabela's 1625rnd deal. Same as the HP's @ Dicks, but comes bulk in an ammo box and free shipping for $99.99. Works out to around $.06/rnd which isn't too shabby either.

Just throwin it out there for you plinkers.

[RV_]

Yarome,

I made a mental note of that sale and then lost my notebook! But fortunately I had a buddy ask me over for some wild pig this after noon and that brain cell fired. Today was the last day of the sale but they held four boxes back for me, 3 hollow point 38gr., and one box of round lead target rounds. MY buddy told me to pick up a couple for him and I did and got pulled BBQ pork fresh killed yesterday, hung and bled, and bled and roasted today. with tater salad, slaw, BBQ beans and blueberry cheesecake so good it made my tongue roll up inside yer haid like a winder shade and beat yer brains ta death!

Thanks again for the heads up,! I didn't even know we had a Dicks here. I usually go to the Base Exchange (BX) where guns and ammo are tax free and on sale sometimes too.

[Jack Mayer]

You can keep your eye on Mass Ammo (online). They have some good deals from time to time on .22.  I usually buy a couple of 5000 round cases when they have their sales. Free shipping, no tax. Comes to around .05 for the CCI or Federal. You have to watch for it, though. 

[Trucken]

Thanks Jack..usually we get 5 to 10 k rounds when we got the chance..eight of us do a lot of plinking, and can go thru a lot in a weekend.. 

just won  a Taurus Judge 410/45 in a raffle....haven’t used it yet just wondering if it’s worth keeping. Know or have experience about it.

[Jack Mayer]

3 minutes ago, Trucken said:

just won  a Taurus Judge 410/45 in a raffle....haven’t used it yet just wondering if it’s worth keeping. Know or have experience about it.

I've shot them, but not owned one. It depends on what you wish to do with it. To me they are more a curiosity, but they do have their place. That is just my opinion, and I'm sure there are those the would be strongly opposed to it

 

[Alie&Jim's Carrilite]

1 hour ago, Trucken said:

Thanks Jack..usually we get 5 to 10 k rounds when we got the chance..eight of us do a lot of plinking, and can go thru a lot in a weekend.. 

just won  a Taurus Judge 410/45 in a raffle....haven’t used it yet just wondering if it’s worth keeping. Know or have experience about it.

I've shot several hundred rounds thru a Judge.  From slug to birdshot.  It can be a handful.  If I was to keep one as a defensive home weapon, loaded with a buckshot you can't miss at 10-15 feet.

[RV_]

I have read of folks that got the 6.5" barreled Judge and making head shots at targets 50 yards away. I would strongly suggest aiming as a 3" - 6.5" barrel can completely miss if not aimed even with shot. I suggest that if you indeed don't think you need to aim your shotgun or shot revolver, that you make a witness screen/panel out of a wooden frame and butcher paper abut a yard square. Shoot it at 5 feet, 15 feet, 75 feet and tell me the optimal range for max pellet spread isn't for a .410 isn't between 25 feet,and 75 feet or 25 yards. Make your own panelk and see what your gun patterns, then shoot accordingly. Go here and scroll down to the pictures of the shotgun holes and pellet spread at different distances. http://firearmsid.com/A_distshotpatt.htm

I would suggest the Winchester PDX 1 combination copper plated disks and buckshot in one shell for the defense rounds. http://www.basspro.com/shop/en/winchester-pdx1-410-buckshot-for-personal-defense 45 colt can be a devastating round out to 25 meters (82 feet.)

Remember it is only a five shot, but if one assailant, that is four more rounds than you will need if you are accurate with the Judge.

I am wavering between the Judge and the carbine Circuit Judge. http://www.rossiusa.com/product-list.cfm?category=15

 

 

[Yarome]

I'm glad someone else was able to take advantage of that as well. I found a Dick's not too far off. When I called I should have been more specific though. I asked if they still had quite a lot in stock and they answered in the affirmative. Evidendly, our definitions of "quite a lot" don't mesh... but I was able to grab their last 8 boxes of the .38 HP's. I've never really played around with any Federal bulk before, but it's not too bad. I put 90rnds through my henry's and another 50 through my G22 with a conversion upper. Granted... the glock with conversion definately has it's favorite flavors. The henry's will eat just about anything, though. It actually ran better than I  had expected and had some fairly decent groupings @50yrds. The glock... I had 2 FTC's and a single FTE. No FTF's and @15yrds.. "meh". Maybe a 25% increase in groupings and a couple of "wild-hairs". That being said... the 22lr conv.'s ramp has 450rnds on it now and is probably overdue for a light re-polish. That "likely" might clear up the FTE/FTC issues.

A judge- Strictly my own personal opinion but I'm not especially a fan and feel they are a bit ill suited for their intended purpose. Kind of fun to shoot, but I wouldn't carry one. Not that a 45lc/410 doesn't have a place. I DO have a bond arms for walks, driving, etc. As a close quarters "snap" gut gun or to take small game it's not too shabby, but 5 rounds would be way overkill for any situation in which it "would" be well suited for a platform like that.  Rifling is too deep and long... among other considerations.

The other contributing factor with the B.A., for me, is the plefora of fairly inexpensive barrels available. Along with the 45lc/410 I have 3 others that'll switch out in moments so it's versatility in being able to throw any pistol ammo already in my stocks was a selling point.  

An in-depth opinion talking sectional densities and such probably isn't too kosher on an RV forum, and a 45lc would be a much better choice as a personal protection round in a judge, but if I "was" talking 410 defense rounds I would probably be buying 4-ball 000 or a slug w/2-ball 000 shells.

Some loads can "look" very devistating on paper, but the reality can be harsh.

[RV_]

Yarome,

The reality is what I did professionally in the military as a Combat arms instructor (CATM) and earlier in my career they called us SAMTU ( Small Arms Marksmanship Training Unit.) I did the Air Force test for Break Free at Lackland and we perfected the .22 conversion kit which thankfully we dropped. I am quite aware of the narratives in reviews to reflect the writer's bias'. Our gunsmith shop at Lackland cut down some military .45s for the OSI and thus was born the short Colt Combat Commander. The USAF Gunsmith shop with dedicated gunsmiths is at Lackland and when I was in 1971-1998 they did all the esoteric testing of weapons not already mandated to be done by the Army Depot or SPECOPS. I was only assigned there for three years 75-78, and only got to do the lubricant and be part of the .22 conversion testing. Nothing fancy. But I trained folks daily on all our rifles, pistols machine guns shotguns and grenade launchers as well as the M2, the Barret .50 sniper rifle, the LAW rockets and my favorite, the Mark 19 Grenade machine gun that fires out to 2000 meters at 300 rounds a minute. Talk about a rush. We also had to burn several thousand or several hundred proficiency rounds in the case of grenades and shotgun rounds annually in addition to our annual qualifications on each weapon we taught and carried ourselves. We also conducted fire power demos for the leadership like the SECDEF and Chiefs of services. I lucked out getting to play with and carry my sidearm and/or rifle daily, make loud noises, blow things up and get paid for it as well as a great retirement. My military service was fun even in the beginning when I was a medic/scrub tech and Medical laboratory Technologist. I found a better way to draw blood with no risk - ground weapons.

The Judge is not IMHO a carry gun. It is the glove box gun or the living room or office gun. It is too bulky to conceal, and too heavy to carry around clipped to a hidden holster. Shoulder holster only for me. In that size and weight it could drop my pants since I gained some weight. My LAR Grizzly was like that as it was a 45 Winchester magnum that was too heavy for me to carry and conceal as it was a larger version of the Colt .45 auto-loader. It did not have the capability to fire shot shells, and spewed a tongue of flaming "un-burnt in the barrel" powder that looked impressive but hurts night vision.

The Judge for me?  I haven't decided which, if any, Judge or carbine I want to get.

Your choice of ammo is your own and we all come at it from different perspectives. I am 65 and have not had to shoot anyone and hope to continue that luck until I die.

I currently use all .40 S&W caliber handguns and one Black Widow North American Arms .22 Magnum with the factory fitted .22 LR cylinder. I keep a loaded Remington 20ga. Wingmaster in the bedroom, and a .40 cal in each night stand and my desk. My last purchase was a S&W M&P .40 Shield when they had a $75.00 rebate earlier this year and I still have not made the time to clean and test it out in the backyard range.

Yarome, on paper is what I suggested, butcher paper that is. Nothing changes a person's mind about at least trying to aim a shotgun like doing their own witness screen. It also helps to so it for hunting purposes with the bird or deer loads you use at the ranges you expect to shoot.

Yes I have run into all kinds of "experts" repeating gun myths too. Heck when I ask what a gauge is most don't know. It's the fraction of a pound of lead rolled into a ball that just fits in the barrel of a sixteen gauge 1/16th or one ounce - 12 ga. is 1/12 and so on, all were measured that way except the .410. It is a caliber invented in the US. Or another good one is to ask what the length of a 12 ga. 3 inch magnum shell is. (The 3" is the chamber size to accommodate the opened shell crimp at the front so it is not obstructing the barrel.) Before firing, every shell is about a half inch shorter than the chamber is is marked to fit. So before firing a 3" shell is ~2 1/2 inches.

For RV self defense I have an article here aimed at RVrs. http://home.earthlink.net/~derekgore/rvroadiervfulltimingwhatisitreallylike/id85.html

I have trained civilian and military police as well as civilians and base personnel, with every weapon imaginable, professionally, for 20 plus years of my 27 year military career.  I've  written some of our base manuals and helped with USAF Tech orders too.

 

[RV_]

Yarome,

I had to look up what a Bond is and found some double barrel derringers and I guess those are what you have? What caliber?

I know it is a typo but when you posted " Evidently, our definitions of "quite a lot" don't mesh... but I was able to grab their last 8 boxes of the .38 HP's. " I believe you meant 38 grain hollow points. .38 is a handgun caliber once forced upon us in the USAF until we got the auto-loading but equally anemic 9mm Beretta. I'd have preferred the .40 S&W to the 9mm by far for our carry guns. I did however take advantage of a "Police Buy" offered by Beretta to AF Security Police members for about half retail back in 1993. I ordered the model 96 which is the exact same gun as the 9mm just chambered for the .40. They changed our name to Security Forces, in 1996 just before I retired. They even shipped them to us in Germany where I was stationed at the time. It was a group buy, but we could order whatever model we wanted as they were not for on duty military carry. I forget the minimum order but we met it in our division alone.

I use one of these https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Naa+Black+Widow+Accuracy&&view=detail&mid=03891846DEAD5B020CFA03891846DEAD5B020CFA&FORM=VRDGAR

and https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Naa+Black+Widow+Accuracy&&view=detail&mid=22E9D95ACCA962CF083A22E9D95ACCA962CF083A&rvsmid=03891846DEAD5B020CFA03891846DEAD5B020CFA&FORM=VDQVAP for a concealed carry gun with five shots as well as my .40 cal S&W M&P Shield. The Black Widow only comes with one cylinder and the extra 22lr cylinder cost extra. I ordered mine with both the machined to my frame 22lr as well as the .22 mag cylinder. I hated carrying the .40 Beretta so I bought the S&W M&P .40 Shield, which is unbelievably thin and concealable. I am looking for a decent holster for it now. I also found I don't fit in my holster and gear belts since I quit smoking seven years ago! I gotta lose some weight!

[Yarome]

RV_,

That's what happens when your fingers are moving faster than your brain pan. Yes... 38gr HP's.

Correct. A Bond Arms derringer (aka. hand cannon). I have multiple barrels so along with the standard .45lc/.410 barrel it came with, and with the exception of .22 WMR, it's able to shoot any pistol ammo I carry. I like to keep things simple. Handguns... my mains are .40 S&W's, backups are .380's, a couple of .22lr's (Mark II & G22 conversion) and a NAA w/LR & WMR cylinders. Shotty's an 870 MM. Looks like not too dissimilar from your load out.

I really do like the BA. I have a horizontal cross draw holster so when driving, around camp or going for a hike it's an "extremely" comfortable carry and quite utilitarian with the variety of barrels and loads. Everything from picking up a little supper of opportunity, popping a flare or as a "show stopper".

I know some folks get a laugh out of the NAA's, but when it's shorts and t-shirt season your carry options are limited. All things aside... used properly a 5-shot WMR at close range that fits in your palm is no joke. 

[RV_]

Yarome,

Yep very similar armories. I had to go with the Beretta because I can gunsmith it down to rolled pins and pieces. The 870 same thing. Despite my 20ga preference the 870 is identical to the military 870 12ga. in parts and function. My Ruger 10-22 includes two of the 25 rd. banana magazines and several of the smaller. I think I am going to buy another and one of these: http://www.tacticalinc.com/gatling-gun-kit-p-571.html

Now that would be fun to shoot. Then I'd be buying the 4-5000 round bulk .22 crates! I am going to get back into my shooting and fishing again.

 

[Yarome]

On 11/24/2017 at 6:19 PM, RV_ said:

....870 is identical to the military 870 12ga. in parts and function.

I think I am going to buy another and one of these: http://www.tacticalinc.com/gatling-gun-kit-p-571.html

Now that would be fun to shoot. Then I'd be buying the 4-5000 round bulk .22 crates! I am going to get back into my shooting and fishing again.

You still want to be careful with their newer models though. I've been seeing some MIM parts and other "cost cutters" in those (mainly their "express" line) that make me a little nervous for a self-defense tool. You can get away with a lot of it, and it's really not expensive switching out a couple parts here and there, but wonder how it might affect their sales when folks start talking about their 870 (without mentioning specific models) failing on them.

I like my newer (~ish) 870MM just fine, but even that came with a thin short hard plastic follower and spring that was a little less than adequate for fast feed. You're only talking a $20 "fix", but still.... how'de you like to have that little thing crack a piece off and wedge a shell half way up the tube when you really need it. 

 That would make a FINE squirrel gun!  I've never seen anything like that before. All you need is some tanker glasses and a foulard to complete the ensemble.

[RV_]

The Gatling kits have been around for a while. I've handled one but never fired one. I imagine they're a hoot to crank up.

Back in the mid 1970s we had a recall on the 870 hammers and a few other parts due to metal crystallization.

[Trucken]

Well had a chance to shoot the Judge and I was impressed. Range Master suggested a test panic shoot with the 410. Just point and shoot all five rounds of 410 from 30 feet. Used #4 shot, would not like to be on the receiving ent of that. 

Then did the same test with the 45 and only hit the target once. Aiming with 45 did much better, 4 out of five were on target impressive for a 3 inch barrel. So I will keep it sell my 9MM, as I prefer shooting my 22LR, lots cheaper and hardly shoot the 9. 

Helped owner of the game preserve where I Volunteer to build a 200 yard shooting range, for his family and friends. Welded up swinging target out of quarter inch plate steel for hand guns and and spinning targets for 22’s. 

I had a sign made up no long guns on moving target. unfortunately some of his relatives, or his friends cannot read or just don’t give a darn. Swinging targets and spinning targets blown apart by long guns. When I mow the grass i have to pick up garbage bag  of trash. Can’t leave shotgun shells or clay pigeons with the skeet thrower, as they will use them up with no regrets. 

Sorry for the diatribe, I just finished mowing and cleaning up the range for Thanksgiving. Just sad, all the effort I put into it is abused.

Trucken 

 

[Yarome]

6 hours ago, RV_ said:

I imagine they're a hoot to crank up.

Especially if you picked up a couple of these. 

[RV_]

 

[RV_]

Trucken,

that is terrible!

 

 

[Ray,IN]

On 11/12/2017 at 7:45 PM, Alie&Jim's Carrilite said:

I've shot several hundred rounds thru a Judge.  From slug to birdshot.  It can be a handful.  If I was to keep one as a defensive home weapon, loaded with a buckshot you can't miss at 10-15 feet.

Did not know buckshot is available in .410, largest I've found is #2 shot. Still hoping Santa buys me a Henry .410 shotgun.

[Yarome]

4 hours ago, Ray,IN said:

Did not know buckshot is available in .410, largest I've found is #2 shot. Still hoping Santa buys me a Henry .410 shotgun.

Absolutely. It's gotten rediculous. They have some "SD" shells in .410 that are really quite creative. Even in a 2 1/2" shell you can get 3 or 4 000 buck loads... 3 copper plated disks over 12 plated BB's... or Hornady has a .41 FTX slug over 2 .35 round shot.

If you go with "specialty" shells they have flechette loads, flashbangs, incendiaries and on and on. It seems that the "human condition" knows no bounds in what we'll throw out even a .410 pipe.

Within the effective range of a Judge or similar "hand cannon" type gut gun though even plain ol #6 or #7 is going to ruin any would be assailants day.

I'm quite fond of Henry's and hope you get your wish, Virginia. 

[RV_]

Ray,

click on this link with about ten different .410 personal defense loads. I'm partial to the  Winchester PDX1 load.

https://www.bing.com/search?q=.410+self+defense+loads&pc=MOZI&form=MOZLBR

Here is a gel and meat test as well as penetrating tests all at 7 yds:

If you want to train for personal defense a good book is Street Survival:

https://www.bing.com/search?q=street+survival+book&pc=MOZI&form=MOZTSB

It's written by cops for cops and other armed professionals. Pictures of actual aftermaths showing perps and cops that lost the gunfight.

There's a lot more that you can't get from a book but can with an experienced instructor. I'm lucky in that I never had to pull the trigger on or off duty. Hope I never do.

That book has a picture where a perp took 38 9mm rounds to the face, neck, chest, and limbs before he laid down and was stopped. Others have survived 12 gauge hits. Then in 1980 I read where a young child accidentally discharged a .177 pellet rifle and it managed to penetrate her 9 y/o brother's heart and killed him. The one thing you can be sure of is that a bullet will not always do what you think it will. That's why we teach double taps and hold the weapon on the aggressor in case they come at you again.

I caution folks from believing folks online that seem to know, but to those who know they are immediately recognized as a wannabe. When someone says the sound of their shotgun alone will send an intruder away, that's bad info. All you've done is betray your position and let them know to draw their gun if they are armed. Then the myth that you don't have to aim a shotgun inside a room in a house because it spreads out. Most rooms are under 20' in any direction. Rounds only spread out about a foot at 15 yards. That's 45 feet!

Click on the next link below and look at the patterns at 15 yds or 45 feet bearing in mind that almost all gunfights happen at 7 yards or less.That's 15 feet with almost no spread. You must aim a shotgun at close ranges of 25 yards or less. Also you need to practice with the rounds you are going to actually use and load in your gun for hunting or defense.

Excerpt:

"Shotgun patterns fall into three zones, "A", "B", and "C".  Starting at the muzzle of the shotgun and extending typically to 5~7 yards, the "A" zone sees the buckshot load traveling as a tightly grouped mass of pellets with almost no spreading.  Because there is no spreading pattern, shot placement must be accurately delivered just as though you were using a handgun. 

The "B" zone starts around the 5~7 yard mark (the end of the A zone) where the buckshot pattern is just opening up to a hand sized pattern.  It continues out to the point where the majority of the pellets remain within the thoracic cavity (more on that later).  For many shotguns, this is around the 20 yard range but may be less or more depending on the barrel length, choke, and brand of buckshot. 

The "C" zone starts at the end of the "B" zone and is used to extend the effective range of the shotgun by shooting a slug projectile (usually 1 oz of solid lead).  The "C" zone typically reaches out to 100 yards (with a little practice on your part) for a man sized target.  This article doesn't address the "C" zone nor the use of shotgun slugs.

Let's take a look at several targets shot at 15 yards which is within the "B" zone of my Benelli SuperNova.  I'll only be showing one distance (15 yards) for each of the three brands of buckshot I used.  In addition, I only shot each target one time.  When I normally do this, I would shoot a target at a specific distance three times with the same brand of buckshot.  This would give me somewhat of an "average" pellet spread and would let me see how tight or loose the pellet spread was at that distance."

Click here for the article for pictures of pattern testing with different loads at different ranges:

http://www.stu-offroad.com/firearms/patterntest/buck1-1.htm

 

[Yarome]

Interesting video comparison. I noticed there were a couple of others, however, the main issue I would have with them is that their premise for comparison is fundamentally flawed, IMHO. A better "apples to apples" comparison between sectional densities would have been with the 2-1/2" 4-000 (a longer shell and more projectiles isn't always better).

Not knocking the loads. Any one of which out of a small hand cannon at close range is going to ruin anyone's day.

My opinions are my own, but something that might be interesting to watch.

1. .410 Federal 2-1/2" 000 (4-000) @ 7ft. 2:44min  
2. .410 Winchester 2-1/2" PDX1 (3disk + BB) @ 3.5ft. 2:22min

At such short distances the 3.5-7ft won't make a large difference in penetration, but should be noted to extrapolate the size of the spread patterns.