Rough Lives PBS artcle

[eddie1261]

On 10/27/2017 at 9:06 PM, Alie&Jim's Carrilite said:

A bucket with a toilet seat beats your back on an oak tree wrapped in poison ivy.....  

Friend of mine did this on a hunting trip.... it's still funny to a select group today!

 

Had I seen that I would have laughed until I peed myself. AND found a way to get a picture of it for the Christmas card he got every year.

But the point being, this is why I bought an RV and not tried to trick out a van. I have a bathroom so my bucket will continue to be used for washing the car.

I am now 60% through her book and it is really well written, but it is written in a way that she comes off as a spoiled child who is looking down from her lofty perch at all the "losers" who are working slave labor jobs while she travels for her work on a comfortable expense account. She seems to be mentioning only people who fit her agenda. I am sure that somewhere in the workamper world there are people who are NOT working 12 hour days running around an Amazon warehouse or slogging through sugar beet fields, yet she really stresses those two jobs and really goes out of her way to explain how awful they are. And I agree. Running around a million square foot warehouse looking for a back scratcher to fill an order is not my idea of retirement.

I am trying to read with a mind open enough to get her point yet still remember that for every RVer out there who does not have to work until they die, there is probably one who does. Not everybody positioned themselves for older years the same way through their younger years. She is relying heavily on Bob Wells "uber frugal" philosophy, which is fine, but it brings me back to what I have said in the past. At what point does living on $500 a month become nothing more than existing? I personally am in a little bit better place than that but many aren't due to divorces, bad investments, job furloughs, etc..... I will finish this book tomorrow and see where she is trying to go with this. At this point I am impressed with the writing but not the underlying attitude. She is like Toby Tyler sneaking into the circus to see the wild animals and freaks inside.

[Zulu]

5 hours ago, Coleen said:

I don't know. The name sounds familiar, but I can't say for sure. When I let them know I won't be supplying private information, and won't be helping them support their agenda, that's usually the last I hear from them.

Here's the thing, Coleen -- the thread's about a book by Jessica Bruder who, as you said, may or may not have contacted you.

Yet you lump Bruder with other "journalists" (your air quotes) who you clearly do not respect. Isn't that jumping to conclusions?

[Kirk W]

15 hours ago, Coleen said:

Instead they state their agenda, and ask me to put them in contact with people who fit it and who can back them up as living examples. There seems to be quite a few "journalists" who desire to portray full-time RVers and working RVers as poor, downtrodden victims

That seems to be the current trend. I suspect that you are old enough, as I am, to remember back when the popular trend was to write stories about the wealthy people who live in RVs and roam the country? Those were distortions of facts used to prove an agenda then, just as the reverse seems to be true today. The simple fact is that the full-time RV world is pretty much a cross-section of our society and isn't dominated by one socioeconomic group.  I suspect that you would also agree with me that the Escapees RV Club and forums are not mostly wealthy people either but just a pretty typical group of RV owners from America. Even though we may be members of the Escapees, that hardly means that we only get to know others who are members. 

There is no doubt that there are poor folks among the work-camping community but I suspect that most of the truly poor who live in RVs can be found in the more rundown RV parks and not moving, because of the expense associated with travel. There are also some very wealthy people traveling by RV. It has been my observation that articles written about folks living in RVs tend to be most accurate when published in RV magazines, but there are some accurate ones out there in other publications. 

If you do a study that is done seeking cases to support an already held opinion, that is not research at all. 

 

[Pieere]

Work camping even if it is someones sole income is sure more ethical than sitting on ones duff collecting welfare, smoking dope and playing video games living off the parents or girlfriends' employ or vice versa! 

And correcting someones spelling errors is childish when one doesn't agree with their thoughts!

Why have I let my hair grow long! because I'm 66+ years young and I still have some to grow! 

This is all Sarcasm!

In being real, when someone posts it is because they were curious about what others think! If the mods are in disagreement then just delete this!

[Coleen]

12 hours ago, Zulu said:

Here's the thing, Coleen -- the thread's about a book by Jessica Bruder who, as you said, may or may not have contacted you.

Yet you lump Bruder with other "journalists" (your air quotes) who you clearly do not respect. Isn't that jumping to conclusions?

The original poster provided a link to an article and asked for our thoughts. I read the article and posted my thoughts.

[Coleen]

4 hours ago, Kirk Wood said:

 The simple fact is that the full-time RV world is pretty much a cross-section of our society and isn't dominated by one socioeconomic group. 

A fact that many people miss -- or choose not to believe.

[Lou Schneider]

23 hours ago, Coleen said:

I get contacted by "journalists" on a fairly regular basis. They usually don't ask for facts; or about our experiences as working RVers; or about what we have learned from communicating with, and working with, full-time RVers over the past two-and-a-half decades. Instead they state their agenda, and ask me to put them in contact with people who fit it and who can back them up as living examples.

Quite right, Colleen.  I can back up what you said from the other side, the time I spent working in the media.

All too often, a reporter doesn't go out and create a story based on the facts he uncovers, it's quicker and easier to set the premise of the story first, then go looking for facts that support that narrative.

I once asked an editor about this, he replied their business was delivering an audience to their advertisers and a counter-argument wasn't what their audience wanted to hear.

[eddie1261]

On 10/28/2017 at 12:51 PM, Coleen said:

The original poster provided a link to an article and asked for our thoughts. I read the article and posted my thoughts.

Read the book and see if your opinion changes. Anybody with minimal reading comprehension skills can see that she did exactly what a few of the posters have said. She had an agenda and she sought out only those case studies who supported that agenda. They all shared a few general situations that got them to where they are. Whether it was a sudden job loss, over reaching and buying the palace when the mansion would have sufficed, over investing in risky ventures, or divorces that cleaned them out. Toss in an injury here or there, though it appeared to me that the author went to some lengths to overly dramatize minor injuries and turn them into major injuries (One had a sore  wrist that supposedly made he unable to work. Really? An owie in her wrist?).

Something shared by almost every one of them was this. They all spent half their "road" time parked in their kid's driveway, at "a friend's property", couch surfing... basically intruding on people who had more than they did. Now this is where you personal opinion will probably vary from mine and may cause you to want to chastise me for not agreeing with you, but there is no circumstance so dire that I am going to intrude into anybody's life. Ever. In any form. Not for mail forwarding, which is asking people to set time aside from their life to deal with my life, not for a parking space, not for food, nothing. I am an extremely proud person, and in my opinion that sort of thing is admitting I can't take care of myself. and I will never beg for anything. I will never go to a church food bank, never accept welfare or food stamps... nothing like that. We can live quite a while without food as long as we have water. It isn't optimal, it isn't comfortable, but Muslims fast for a month every year, so anybody could do it if they absolutely had to. If not for being diabetic I might try it for a month just to see how it went. If I tried it, my blood sugar would go so low I would die.

So her book was extremely well written, but in my opinion it was agenda driven and does not really speak to the majority of people here. It addresses the Cheap RV Living crowd that tends to draw the converted van crowd.  I know many of you workamp, but I have yet to see a whole lot of you say you work those 12 hour days at Amazon or in the sugar beet fields. I have also yet to see anybody here trying to live on $534 dollars a month in SS like one of her major subjects does. Because that person can't afford gas, she parks in friend's driveways. (She CAN spend $200 of those monthly dollars smoking though. Doesn't it seem like when you have no money, vices should be the first thing to go? And please DO NOT tell me how hard it is to quit. If I can quit drinking like I did many years back, anybody can quit anything. It will be 24 years on New Year's Day. It's not hard. It takes desire, discipline and mental toughness, but it is possible.) The point of bringing that up is that some people contribute to their financial woes by not having priorities. And those who allow people to intrude on their lives by offering driveways and couches are enablers.MAKE them go out and make it on their own.

One thing that caught my attention was one subjects story about how she HAD to work at an Amazon warehouse because she needed the money for gas to get to the RTR. Really? Life will end if you don't go to the RTR where Grizzly Adams is going to bitch at you if he can hear your music or TV playing? That is why I will never attend. If that guy came to my RV and told me to turn my TV down, you'd read about it om the paper the next day, or see me on Live PD..... Anything that happens inside those 4 aluminum cladded OSB walls is my business.

Closing, I DO recommend her book. It was a good read.

[Kirk W]

8 hours ago, eddie1261 said:

Closing, I DO recommend her book. It was a good read.

And that is where you and I disagree. Because she is a talented writer, many of her readers will be convinced that she is right. I sure won't help her to sell fiction in the pretense of fact. 

[trailertraveler]

Quote

People see what they want to see.

And because perception is reality, they sometimes deny/discount the perceptions/reality of others.

Quote

Of course their are people trying to live in an RV and make ends meet when they have a limited income.

This is a photo of the fulltimer's row at a park near Tularosa, NM.

Note all the HDTs, New Horizon 5th  wheels and Diesel Pushers! We see similar in many small towns all across the country. You will not encounter them staying in or volunteering/workkamping in federal, state or non-profit facilities. These folks are working to support families or themselves. The older ones I have talked to do not have employer pension programs and/or employer provided/assisted health insurance. They may or may not have veterens benefits. They are not likely to be able to retire early and at least some will likely work until they are no longer able. However, I would not call them workkampers. They are workers who are living in an RV (camper).

[eddie1261]

One thing I found distressing in the book was her detailed comment about how, at some social gathering,  a couple of van people wandered over to greet the group and when they said they live in a van, they were suddenly ostracized. And according to her narrative, ostracized to the point where people were acting as if they weren't even there. When the van dweller spoke in the conversation the comments went ignored. They quickly left the group. 

Another incident she reported was a time when there was a group of about 12 people all with the same model RV parked together and a van pulled up. The van was quickly told it was not permitted to park with that group. Permitted. As I did when I read it in the book, I am thinking, as I repeat it now how big my fine would be after I did what I would do to ANY SOB who tried to tell me where I can and can't park in an open scenario. That kind of arrogance and condescension will NEVER fly with me. We are all just "folks".

Her book was intended to focus on the financially challenged, and the majority of folks here are not in that category. There ARE forums online that people in her subject base fit far more closely than here. And her assertion that RVers are anything less than friendly people willing to share their experience and knowledge I find irresponsible and reprehensible. There was no indication that she spoke to anybody who was NOT a financially distressed van dweller to get the opposing perspective, and that is a real indication that the book was agenda driven.

Still I say, however, it was a good read.  (I read Mein Kampf too back in college, but I am not an anti-Semite or a Nazi. You don't have to agree with the content to make it a good read.) She gave a window into the lives of a small handful of people. There are a lot of positives to take from her book, most notably that I never want anything to do with working those jobs she detailed that are analogous to kids working in shoe factories in Indonesia..... She told tales of people well into their 70s being required to force march 15 miles over a 10 hour shift. Not me! I was less than 100 Kindle pages into it before I realized that from my perspective, this was going to be a "Don't let this happen to you" book. It absolutely does not address the lives and experiences of most of the people here.

[eddie1261]

On 10/27/2017 at 5:10 PM, pjstough said:

I hope you are more knowledgeable than to imply who was elected in 2008 was in any way responsible for the housing bust.  Otherwise, you post was pretty interesting.

He WAS responsible for the escalation of the welfare state for the next 8 years, was he not?

[pjstough]

No, the increase in spending on social welfare programs was the result of the destruction of the economy of GW Bush.  Our country could not recover from the Great Recession in a couple of years, and of course our country is still suffering from virtually unlimited immigration, that is supported by Democrats, Republicans, a Libertarians.

[eddie1261]

7 minutes ago, pjstough said:

No, the increase in spending on social welfare programs was the result of the destruction of the economy of GW Bush.  Our country could not recover from the Great Recession in a couple of years, and of course our country is still suffering from virtually unlimited immigration, that is supported by Democrats, Republicans, a Libertarians.

And ACA was initiated by who? Giving free medical insurance to people with no income paid for my people WITH income? Bush didn't do that. More people on food stamps than at any time in history? Bush didn't do that. The most liberal immigration ever? Bush didn't do that. But I am not going to debate politics with you in a forum about a book. FYI, I was not a Bush fan either. I fail to understand how a C student gets to be president..... Quite frankly, I think the best candidate for president is me, though I would likely come up several hundred million votes short....

[pjstough]

Evidently, you dont understand politics or economics as well as I was giving you credit for.

[eddie1261]

3 minutes ago, pjstough said:

Evidently, you dont understand politics or economics as well as I was giving you credit for.

I understand it far better. I just don't believe in handouts. If you want medical insurance, pay for it yourself. And having 6 babies by 6 fathers, all of whom are dead or in prison, is NOT the way to make money. Good day to you, sir.

[pjstough]

2 minutes ago, eddie1261 said:

I understand it far better. I just don't believe in handouts. If you want medical insurance, pay for it yourself. And having 6 babies by 6 fathers, all of whom are dead or in prison, is NOT the way to make money. Good day to you, sir.

And of course that is the situation for everyone who was helped by the ACA.  LOL

[mrschwarz]

I have read other articles like this. They have a pre-conceived notion and cherry-pick the facts to support it. You know, like everyone who gets a health insurance subsidy has 12 kids and is married to 15 prisoners.

[Zulu]

And just like that the thread took a turn for the worst . . .

[Pat & Pete]

6 hours ago, Zulu said:

And just like that the thread took a turn for the worst . . .

And , you seem to have a nack for pointing that out . Meh .

I guess somebody has to . 

 

[Pieere]

6 hours ago, Zulu said:

And just like that the thread took a turn for the worst . . .

Agreed 100%. 

[Pat & Pete]

6 minutes ago, Pieere said:

Agreed 100%. 

Zulu has a helper . Amazing .

Instead of telling everyone that the sky is falling ( something very obvious ) , why not show folks the way to shelter ?

[whj469]

I am sorry that I ever posted here! I don't want to read post made by ignorant and uneducated people!

[Blues]

On 10/28/2017 at 8:49 PM, eddie1261 said:

Something shared by almost every one of them was this. They all spent half their "road" time parked in their kid's driveway, at "a friend's property", couch surfing... basically intruding on people who had more than they did.

That's funny.  Our friends and family always want us to stay in their driveway, and if we took them up on it, it wouldn't be an intrusion. 

It almost always turns out that they were wrong when they thought we'd be able to fit, so we almost never do it.  And they're disappointed.  Your mileage obviously varies.

 

On 10/26/2017 at 6:17 AM, Kirk Wood said:

She did as so many others and went out looking for facts to support the story she had previously chosen to write. In our 12 years as work-campers, we met only 1 couple who would fit into the story that she tells. I wonder if Jack Meyer has read this one? Or perhaps any of the other members of this forum who choose to work-camp? I don't believe that they qualify as poverty seniors.

She chose to write a story about a group of people who are living that lifestyle and doing that work in order to survive, people who never imagined themselves being nomads.  She didn't choose to write about people who choose to be nomads, and do this work because they just want to. 

If a person writes an article about popular former presidents, does she have to include unpopular former presidents, too, or risk being called a liar or writer of fiction because she didn't include the full scope of former presidents?  I don't think so.

 

On 10/26/2017 at 8:10 PM, eddie1261 said:

First of all, he didn't call her a lair. He didn't even call her a LIAR.

What he said was that she appears to have had an agenda and went out in search of case studies to support that agenda.

Actually, what he said was:

Quote

When you intentionally distort facts as Jessica Bruder did, it is little different from telling a lie. Her story is more fiction than fact and we have been there. 

And how is her story fiction?  She reported the stories that these people told her, and told of her experiences trying to do the same thing.  That's not fiction.

[eddie1261]

Fiction was probably a strong word, but I think he meant that she focused on one particular subset of a group she called "Nomads"  (I mean, the book is called Nomadland) and planted the seed in the minds of her readers that they represent the majority. She presented only anecdotal evidence without a lot of tangible proof, though I don't know what kind of tangible proof she could have gathered. Centering on the case studies she selected, that picture she draws makes it seem as if that specific subset is the rule rather than the exception. When people are given just enough to use their power of perception, their conclusions can go many difference ways.

As a wild analogy, let's say the you know a couple, John and Jane. John is very involved in little league and carried the team equipment. On some random Thursday, you see Jane walking with a case and you can see that her shins and calves are badly bruised. The buzz starts that maybe John did it to her. And hey, you KNOW he has all that baseball equipment, including bats. Something like a bat could do that kind of damage. And John's a really big, strong guy, isn't he? And remember that time that he had the plumber in and he didn't think the work was good and they had that big argument? I never knew he had a temper like that!!

So now the buzz says that John has a temper, that he is a big and strong man, and he has baseball bats at his disposal. To someone just hearing that much, how long do you think it becomes gospel that John must have beat Jane with a bat and hurt her legs?

And that is how the power of persuasion alters perception and creates reality. And the contents of the book go FAR deeper than that PBS interview, which I also watched. I am not trying to sell books for her and I wish you could find it free, but I am likely the only one in this discussion who read it and knows what she said. The RV people with cash flow are not working 12 hours days in the Amazon warehouse out of necessity. She centered on the lower income van dwellers, not you guys with the big tractors pulling 40 ft 5th wheels, of the 40 ft Class A owners, most of whom are doing just fine financially and might be working because they enjoy the social interaction, if not just for something to do, because your story wouldn't be a book.  I am also sure that many of the van dwellers do NOT fit her profile, and she likely met many in 3 years of research, they wouldn't fit her agenda, so she didn't use them. Fair enough there. Her subjects weren't 40 somethings who work remotely from their RV and live mobile by choice. All of her case studies were old people who were also poor. Remember, the idea is to sell books, and the stories of fairly well off people touring the country in fancy RVs is more dog bites man than man bites dog.

But this topic has been beat to death now. Other than to say she wrote a good book that told the story SHE wanted to tell, which is not necessarily accurate across the board.