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wtmtnhiker

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I think the author is focusing on the negatives! it sure was better than working for employers who don't give a care about their employees! Out of about a dozen work camping employers I only had problems with two compared to about 50% of the others I worked for!

I worked at the big warehouse for two holiday seasons. I'm not saying it was all strawberries and cream, but we were treated well. The tough old birds in their 40's to 70's+ were doing much better than most of the local college students they hired. It was good to hear the one who said that he played college sports and he couldn't understand how us "OLDSTERS" could do the work! I told him turning wrenches on heavy duty vehicles and others for 40+ years may have had something to do with it. Maybe three years of active duty inn the Army  did too!

I also worked in an Amusement Park as a games attendant in the summer humidity. It was fun and we were treated well! 

I will say this, This type of employ is mostly for people who have a retirement income or nest egg of finances. And if you go to Workamper News website, most will say the same. It is not something to depend on as a sole income!

:) Living Life One Day At A Time!

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She did as so many others and went out looking for facts to support the story she had previously chosen to write. In our 12 years as work-campers, we met only 1 couple who would fit into the story that she tells. I wonder if Jack Meyer has read this one? Or perhaps any of the other members of this forum who choose to work-camp? I don't believe that they qualify as poverty seniors. 

When you intentionally distort facts as Jessica Bruder did, it is little different from telling a lie. Her story is more fiction than fact and we have been there. 

Good travelin !...............Kirk

Full-time 11+ years...... Now seasonal travelers.
Kirk & Pam's Great RV Adventure

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8 minutes ago, Kirk Wood said:

She did as so many others and went out looking for facts to support the story she had previously chosen to write. In our 12 years as work-campers, we met only 1 couple who would fit into the story that she tells. I wonder if Jack Meyer has read this one? Or perhaps any of the other members of this forum who choose to work-camp? I don't believe that they qualify as poverty seniors. 

When you intentionally distort facts as Jessica Bruder did, it is little different from telling a lie. Her story is more fiction than fact and we have been there. 

Kirk,  you have pretty much summed up my thoughts.

Garry
2018 Grand Design Imagine 2600RB
2017 Chevy Silverado 1500

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There is no question in my mind that there is some percentage of the work campers who fit in the group the article is targeting.

Now saying that, should these people move out on the streets, living homeless on the streets or under the freeway overpasses? 

I sounds like those who fell on hard times are making the best of the situation and living in an RV and travel for jobs. 

Al & Sharon
2006 Winnebago Journey 36G 
2020 Chevy Colorado Toad
San Antonio, TX

http://downtheroadaroundthebend.blogspot.com/

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There is no question in my mind that there is some percentage of the work campers who fit in the group the article is targeting.

I agree and have met a number of them in our travels since 2007. I think they are more likely to be devotees of Cheap RV Living than Escapees.

Quote

I wonder if Jack Meyer has read this one? Or perhaps any of the other members of this forum who choose to work-camp? I don't believe that they qualify as poverty seniors.

In my opinion based on my experience, the members of this forum and Escapees members are no more representative of retired fulltime RVers than the group described in the subject article. They are just at opposite ends of the spectrum. Most fall somewhere in the middle.

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There are many people living the life portrayed. I am very surprised that you would call her a lair? She talked to the people, not you. What does the life that Jack lives have to do with what the author found? What facts did she distort? Kirk: you do exactly what you stated that the author does! I know that when you post it will be from a far right position and being a liberal myself, I will always respond to such foolish and unfounded post.

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It sounds like someone was raised with all the necessities of life at her instant disposal.  Never had to actually "WORK" for her living.   She never actually worked at Amazon, just talked to folks probably at the end of their shift when they were tired.  Did she do any questionnaire's?  Before the job started and after it completed?  Did she actually go Gate Guard in the oil fields or just talk to few that had their version of the life?

She's not the first or the last that view the RV generation as mostly poor pitiful degenerates....

Alie & Jim + 8 paws

2017 DRV Memphis 

BART- 1998 Volvo 610

Lil'ole 6cyl Cummins

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2 hours ago, whj469 said:

There are many people living the life portrayed. I am very surprised that you would call her a lair? 

First of all, he didn't call her a lair. He didn't even call her a LIAR.

What he said was that she appears to have had an agenda and went out in search of case studies to support that agenda. 

I went to Amazon and read a short preview of the book. She uses a woman named Linda as her example for that chapter. That person makes $534 a month from Social Security and that is it. She also has to mooch lodging from people, eat their food, and generally admit that she is codependent and can't make it on her own. At 64. The writing is quite descriptive, down to the detail that Linda's old Jeep that pulls a 25 year old teardrop camper that has bald, cracking tires on it. This before a trip to some place in California that included a steep incline that includes twist and turns.

The setup for that drive included Linda picking her Jeep up at a mechanic shop, and then going to get the trailer, followed by a trip to the gas station. Now here is where I shook my head, almost to a level of disgust. In the narrative, the author casually mentions "Linda went inside to get her receipt and 2 packs of Marlboro Red 100s.

Okay, Linda. If I told you how you could have somewhere in the neighborhood of $225 more a month in your pocket, would you listen to the advice? Quit smoking.

HOW does anybody with NOTHING justify wasting 40% of their nothing on something as stupid as vices?  And I would speculate that a lot of the people who live in 1986 vans, sleep on a board and poop into a pail waste a lot of what limited income they may have, then turn around and e-beg on youtube with their Patreon accounts. I had a neighbor who eventually was forced from their house because they didn't pay the mortgage for 30 months. They managed to buy a new SUV, a new Harley, have 2 little welfare babies, and every story started with "I was at the bar the other night..." Seems like the money they spent on smoking, drinking, the SUV and the Harley would have been sufficient to pay their mortgage. Some people are responsible and some aren't. (Get me started on gamblers who always have money for the casino but can't pay their mortgage or rent.)

Kirk mentioned that her subject matter was possibly more closely geared to the Cheap RV Living crowd, where it is some kind of absurd badge of courage to see how many suckers you can get to support you on Patreon because YOU didn't prepare for the future. And justify it by saying "Well I spend a lot of time editing videos!!" Um, dude, that is nothing more than playing with your computer all day. Get a freakin' job. A MEANINGFUL job that pays a real salary. You may have to skip the big rally over yonder for a few years, but you need money to do anything else.  Now the rebuttal to that is usually how the economy is to blame and all of that kind of rationalization. Did I not live through that SAME economic downturn as everybody else? I lost a job to outsourcing too. I just worked hard at finding another one that actually paid a fair bit more.

Bob Wells, for all his willingness to share what is indeed a deep knowledge base with new users (and I laud him for that), puts out these videos where every 3rd word of the audio is "cheap". Well, cheap does not equal inexpensive. Do you want your Lasik surgery done by Cy the Eye Guy for $79 because it's cheap, or an opthalmic surgeon who will charge more but won't blind you? Do you want to buy cheap used tires for $35 each on which your $100,000 RV will ride or new ones on sale for $200? That is cheap vs inexpensive. (Remember, you don't have to wait until you need those tires to buy those tires when you find a good sale.)

I will buy her book but I will read it with an attitude of "Don't let this happen to you". And yes, I can sound a little snobby, but the day I have to poop into a bucket with a toilet seat, I hope one of my friends complies with my wishes and just shoots me.

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1 hour ago, Alie&Jim's Carrilite said:

She's not the first or the last that view the RV generation as mostly poor pitiful degenerates....

I just did a youtube video talking about the difference between aging and getting old. I will age one year at a time like everybody else, I refuse to get old. If i get to a point where my whole day revolves around getting the mail and then just sitting in a lawn chair and staring straight ahead, that is the day I stopped living and started existing. I know too many people in that first group. Some younger than me! Their life is over. They are just riding the bus until it runs out of gas now. Not me!

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9 hours ago, trailertraveler said:

In my opinion based on my experience, the members of this forum and Escapees members are no more representative of retired fulltime RVers than the group described in the subject article. They are just at opposite ends of the spectrum. Most fall somewhere in the middle.

I guess that you and I will just have to disagree on this one. Escapees do have some folks with deep pockets, but there are also those at the other end of the spectrum. . We find Escapee members come from pretty much the entire economic spectrum.

Quote

What is the Average Retirement Income 2017 (Mean)? What is the Median Retirement Income 2017?

As you can see in the table below, median income is always lower and is probably closer to the reality for most households of retirement age.

You may have also noticed that average retirement income 2017 varies significantly by the age of the head of household.  Household incomes decline the older they become.

Age of Household Median Income Mean Income
Households Aged 55-64 $62,802 $89,986
Households Aged 65-74: $47,432 $68,905
Households Aged 75 and Older: $30,635

$45,989

 

SOURCE: Data is summarized from the US Census Bureau’s Current Population Survey(CPS) Annual Social and Economic (ASEC) Supplement.  The CPS is a joint effort between the Bureau of Labor Statistics and the Census Bureau.

 

Average Retirement Income 2017: How Do You Compare?

Good travelin !...............Kirk

Full-time 11+ years...... Now seasonal travelers.
Kirk & Pam's Great RV Adventure

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Of course their are people trying to live in an RV and make ends meet when they have a limited income. Of course there are many attempting to live in a S&B with very limited income. I don't see the issue... The book may be trying to make something out of nothing. I don't mean that those with limited income are nothing...just that unfortunately the author is trying to make it sound like these people work camping are somehow being abused???

2007 Arctic Fox 32.5 rls for full-timing, now sold.

2014 Sunnybrook Sunset Creek 267rl for the local campgrounds now that we are off the road
2007 Silverado 2500 diesel

Loving Green Valley, AZ (just South of Tucson)

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I watched some youtube of her talking about this. Now I hope I can accurately portray the impression I got of her point of view on this, and to do so I will use an analogy.

Let's say for example that you are Michael Jordan. (This generation would use Lebron James.) And just for giggles, you decide to go out and watch a small college basketball team that is currently 1-16. Michael KNOWS he is not going to see anything remotely approaching what he calls basketball, so going in he has kind of a condescending view of the team he is going to see.

I found myself doing that on occasion with music. I was in REALLY good bands here in Cleveland, to a level where I'd walk into a place and strangers would come over to greet me and tell me how much they like my band. And to be honest I had some ego about it, to the point where I would listen to the band playing that night, doing the best they could do, and all through the set kept saying "We are SO much better than they are".

That is the impression I got after listening to her speak. She went to Amherst and Columbia for her degrees, both kind of exclusive,  hoity toity schools. I get the feeling that she wanted to get into the van dweller community for the same reasons that kids sneak under the tent to get into the circus for free so they can see the animals and freaks inside. That's just how I felt, but it WAS how I felt.

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5 hours ago, whj469 said:

There are many people living the life portrayed. I am very surprised that you would call her a lair? She talked to the people, not you. What does the life that Jack lives have to do with what the author found? What facts did she distort? Kirk: you do exactly what you stated that the author does! I know that when you post it will be from a far right position and being a liberal myself, I will always respond to such foolish and unfounded post.

Yep. About a year ago when Bruder published her Harper's The End of Retirement article (the basis for her book), the reaction here and on other forums was similar. Mostly along what Kirk said above.

People see what they want to see. It's why police separate witnesses, but can also be the basis for a good movie like the 1964 Western The Outrage.

SKP #79313 / Full-Timing / 2001 National RV Sea View / 2008 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon
www.rvSeniorMoments.com
DISH TV for RVs

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12 hours ago, whj469 said:

What facts did she distort? Kirk: you do exactly what you stated that the author does! I know that when you post it will be from a far right position and being a liberal myself, I will always respond to such foolish and unfounded post.

The entire tenor of the article was distorted by who she chose as her sample base. She went after people who are close to penniless. I am only 40 pages into her book (as I bought it late last night) but I have read enough that I can promise you she did not spend any time at all with people who have $250,000 rigs and live in a true RV by choice rather than a beat up, poorly converted van by necessity. That is a concise definition of the difference between homeless and houseless. The assertion that many poor people are poor because of their lifestyle and choices is a valid one. A lot of those people who live like paupers also do not use what resources they have wisely.

And while you are "liberally" responding, maybe spell check so you get "liar" right..... your post will hold much more validity if we know you can spell simple words correctly. I get that people make typos, but the "a" key and the "I" key are on opposite ends of the keyboard.

(See now how foolish YOUR post looked to ME when you decided to bring left vs right into it?)

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Do you know how many older people are living on SS and not much else? Do you know how many older people who have SS that is it is more then 50% of their income? I don't care what you think and particularly after your many posts. They were totally off point. I know at least nine older people or couples who are very poor and live in broken down trailers that they told me that they live there because that is what they can afford. That is within 5 miles from my ranch.

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Okay, so let me reply categorically. Do I know how many older people are living on SS and not much else? No, nor do I care. The article, which was a sales pitch for her book (which I bought), when on to glorify people who live on nothing. If that is something to praise in your mind, so be it. My deeper thought is why they make so little on SS. Given that your SS rate is based on what earnings were during the recipient's working career, if they make squat on SS, it's because they made squat when they worked. Who is responsible for that?

Whether you know at least 9 older people who are poor or not is also not my concern. Do you only know those 9 people? Do you not also know people who managed their life better and are now NOT forced to live in broken down trailers? How did those 9 people you know live before they retired? In nice homes or just in better trailers?

So where is it that I am off point?

I know that I am an older person who lives on SS and disability. I worked hard at decent jobs my whole work life, jobs that paid reasonably well because I also worked hard at my education, an education that I traded 3 years of my life to earn. Nobody gave it to me. Anybody else had the same opportunity.

I don't know about those 9 people,  and I am not saying they are the way I am about to describe, but far too many people chose to live beyond their means in younger years thinking that Uncle Government was going to take care of them forever.

The book in question speaks to cheap living out of necessity. I am THE cheapest human being you will ever know. I wear clothes for 7-8 years. My hair is still long NOT because I necessarily want it long, but I don't want to pay for haircuts. I have not been to a movie theater in a decade, I have not dined in a restaurant of any quality for over that same decade. I don't smoke, drink or do drugs.  (Just curious. How many of those po' folk you mentioned, those 9 people. live in their broken down trailer but have money to smoke and drink? 7? 8? All 9?)

Jessica's book has one common theme through all her case studies. Every one of them had a huge house, much bigger than is practical for 2 people, and were heavily invested in the stock market. Then came the (premeditated) bank crash and real estate crash in 2008 and they lost all of that. (Hmmm... who was elected president in 2008?)  Most of her case studies are also divorced, and the man lost half of what he had. Are people really more comfortable in the $360,000 house than they would be in a $90,000 house?

One of the subjects in her book is a woman who makes a lot of noise about "freedom and independence". That same woman spends months parking in friend's driveways, sponging off her daughter who has a family of her own, and the last pages I read mention that her daughter is now paying for her unlimited cell phone plan. How is that "freedom" and "independence"? That is the definition of codependency, and if you need help with the word, codependency is a situation where one person can't make it on their own and demands that others around them become subservient to their needs. Guilting one of my kids into pitying me because I didn't plan well enough during my working years is not a place I will ever be. I would rather die on my feet than live on my knees. After a car accident, while afflicted with a major concussion, I had 2 people offer to come over and cook, clean and tend to my dog. I declined. My life and my affairs are my business. I do not ask for pity nor do I give any.  So, those people in her book who work those awful 10-12 hours a day of backbreaking work also tell their story in a way that they are looking for sympathy. Not from me. Never.

While it may not be the case of your nine people, a LOT of people created their own poverty. Her book is clearly a deep dumpster dive into the worst case studies she could find. While I know there are people on these forums who are workampers,  I have some doubts whether any of them MUST work rather than choose to. What I can say for sure is that I am not about to walk a half marathon every day in some warehouse no matter HOW my financial situation gets. Plus I have a dog who can't be alone for 10 or more hours at a stretch. If I DO think I'd like to pick up an extra 100 bucks here and there I can always find a coffee shop and play a set of music for 50 bucks and tips. And maybe even sell some CDs. 

And until you read this book, I will not revisit this with you. Its a $13 Kindle download from Amazon. It is well written, well researched. I just find the subject matter to be borderline pathetic. It will also open your eyes no matter which side of that equation you happen to reside.

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I write about full-time RVing and working-while-RVing -- have for the past 25 years. I get contacted by "journalists" on a fairly regular basis. They usually don't ask for facts; or about our experiences as working RVers; or about what we have learned from communicating with, and working with, full-time RVers over the past two-and-a-half decades. Instead they state their agenda, and ask me to put them in contact with people who fit it and who can back them up as living examples. There seems to be quite a few "journalists" who desire to portray full-time RVers and working RVers as poor, downtrodden victims. By the way, I do not give those "journalists" names or contact information.

Coleen Sykora

Escapees Life Member #19747

Workers On Wheels

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32 minutes ago, eddie1261 said:

Then came the (premeditated) bank crash and real estate crash in 2008 and they lost all of that. (Hmmm... who was elected president in 2008?)

I hope you are more knowledgeable than to imply who was elected in 2008 was in any way responsible for the housing bust.  Otherwise, you post was pretty interesting.

2005 Winnebago Voyage 38J

 

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1 hour ago, Coleen said:

I get contacted by "journalists" on a fairly regular basis. They usually don't ask for facts; or about our experiences as working RVers; or about what we have learned from communicating with, and working with, full-time RVers over the past two-and-a-half decades. 

Did you get contacted by Jessica Bruder?

SKP #79313 / Full-Timing / 2001 National RV Sea View / 2008 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon
www.rvSeniorMoments.com
DISH TV for RVs

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15 minutes ago, Zulu said:

Did you get contacted by Jessica Bruder?

I don't know. The name sounds familiar, but I can't say for sure. When I let them know I won't be supplying private information, and won't be helping them support their agenda, that's usually the last I hear from them.

Coleen Sykora

Escapees Life Member #19747

Workers On Wheels

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21 hours ago, eddie1261 said:

 

I will buy her book but I will read it with an attitude of "Don't let this happen to you". And yes, I can sound a little snobby, but the day I have to poop into a bucket with a toilet seat, I hope one of my friends complies with my wishes and just shoots me.

 

I gotta correct you on one point here...

A bucket with a toilet seat beats your back on an oak tree wrapped in poison ivy.....  

Friend of mine did this on a hunting trip.... it's still funny to a select group today!

 

Alie & Jim + 8 paws

2017 DRV Memphis 

BART- 1998 Volvo 610

Lil'ole 6cyl Cummins

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I think they made a movie on this subject. It was called The Grapes of Wrath

I know many people both in and outside of the RV world who are just getting by and what I call living under the radar. Many have low paying jobs working for cash or tips and never file a tax return. They can barely afford gas for their broken down vehicle to get to work but always have beer and cigarette money but never money to fix their vehicle. While I was going to school at night to get my degree they were hanging out at bars playing billiards and drinking. They chose the life they are leading and I chose to get an education which lead to a better paying job. I am not putting them down for their choice. Most are very happy to have an unemcombered lifestyle, no bills etc. I am only saying that they made a choice and are now living with it. 

2015 Itasca Ellipse 42QD

2017 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited Rubicon Hard Rock Edition

2021 Harley Street Glide Special 

Fulltimer

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2 hours ago, Alie&Jim's Carrilite said:

A bucket with a toilet seat beats your back on an oak tree wrapped in poison ivy..

Even without the poison ivy it isn't great.

How is a bucket inside anywhere not better than the slopjar I had to empty

I had a house that sometimes got the sewer line plugged by roots. It always seemed to happen on a holiday or when I had vistors. I also had 3 kids and a mom.  Thank god for buckets when I had an emergency until I could fix it.

It has been said not to muddy the water around us as we may have to drink it soon.  I think that was in a Kingston Trio song and I take it to mean don't be so judgemental of others as your situation could be just as bad or worse soon.

 

I must have missed something. I can't say I would ever have considered Kirk as far right.  Sometimes I might think he is a little squirrely but I never would have thought far right.:P 

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