Still having b attery problems

[Yarome]

9 hours ago, SWharton said:

Good rant!!!

What all my "rantings" boil down to in your specific case.. and if you are not comfortable delving into the miriad of custom settings (very understandable)... I think you would find that moving to the AGM-2 profile would make you a much happier camper with shorter charge times and minimal impact to your battery banks lifecycles.

If you want to stay with equalization cycles, you could select "flooded" and be still be well within the tolerance ranges of your AGM's.

Option #3... back to AGM 1.

[SWharton]

We have diligently followed Magnum's settings and had everything set for AGM 2. We were aware that settings were different for AGM batteries and felt Magnum should know what they are doing. I think our biggest problem was looking at voltage(since everything seems to use voltage as the "standard") and that threw us into a panic. As we learned from all of you and upgraded our monitor we felt more and more comfortable that all was really fine.

At this point we will stick with AGM 2 and no equalization. If we start seeing lower rating problems we will probably equalize.

We are working on getting our 2nd solar panel, just waiting for an appt. time and then we should be in good shape. The supplier is holding a panel for us.

[Yarome]

13 minutes ago, SWharton said:

We were aware that settings were different for AGM batteries and felt Magnum should know what they are doing.

At this point we will stick with AGM 2 and no equalization.

That's entirely my bad then. I had, mistakenly, read that you were using the AGM 1 profile. Sorry...

You're good.

[SWharton]

No problem Yarome.

[Al F]

Yarome,

Great advice. 

[Al F]

I'm not sure if i should jump in with some unsolicited advice about the solar panels and wiring or not, but here it goes anyways.

Just in case you haven't thought about the these things:

--  Be sure the new solar panel matches the old panel in watts and voltage. 

--  Check the wire size coming down from the solar panels (or combiner box).  If the wire size is #10 and the solar panels will be wired in parallel, you may have a significant voltage loss (more than 3% loss) when the solar panels are in midday sunlight.  You might consider having the installer pull new #6 wire. 

--  Or you could wire the solar panels in series, which would double the voltage, assuming the controller will handle the higher voltage.

--  The down side with wiring the panels in series is, if you shade even one solar chip on one panel you loose almost all output from both panels.  If the panels are in parallel and one part of one panel is shaded, you still get full output from the other panel.

It would be good to use a wire size calculator like this one from Blue Sea and check what your voltage loss will be.  I would shoot for 1% loss if possible.  Just remember the wire length is the round trip distance, the length from the combiner box to the controller times 2.

[SWharton]

Thanks Al. Panel matches, running in parallel and we will see about the wire size.

Sometimes things are meant to be. My regular solar supplier had the panel available; he delivers to my installer once a week and that is on Weds; called my installer and he can fit us in on Friday AM. Just rolling along.

[Smitty77_7]

Just a tag on bit of reminder info for those who use Lifeline's and Magnum Inverter/Chargers. In Feb of 2017, Lifeline alter their charging parameter's just a tad. I called Magnum to see if they'd be making any software updates to the AGM1 setting, and they said the only way to do that was to send the unit in for a new board, or buy the board and swap it out yourself. So, they recommend just using the Customized profile, to alter the charging parameters to Lifeline's new recommended values. 

Probably not a major difference for many, but as I understood it, the new value was to ensure Lifeline's don't 'walk down' to a lower top charge level. So, worth the research and the 10 mins it takes to set a Customized profile.

Again, just a repeat of this info, not targeted specifically to this thread:)!

Best to all,

Smitty

 

[SWharton]

New panel now installed and working. Installer said we can probably fit 6 panels on the roof if we wanted. We will see how the 2 work and then make a decision as to a third. Installer and supplier say up to 3 panels can run on our #10 wire, then we will need to switch. I seriously doubt if we would go beyond 3 panels. This rig just uses so much more electricity than our 5th wheels, all that technology.

Next project is to add Bluetooth to our MH. 2015 model and came without Bluetooth!!!! When we have a chance we will get the Jabra Freedom and try it out. Fry's Electronics carries it. I'll need to see if they will match the Amazon price.

Always something!!!!

[SWharton]

We are considering adding more solar to get ahead of the 30% tariff. We have been told the 30% tariff goes into affect on 2/17, no one is too sure what the impact will be. Apparently there are a lot of if/and/but in the law.

We are not serious boondockers, maybe go off grid for 3-4 days at a time. Alaska trip will be more off grid.

We are trying to decide whether we should go to 3 panels(480w) or 4(540w). We were told the #10 wire could handle 3 panels by our installer but someone else told us the wire can handle 4 panels. Does anyone have any feel for this?

If we go to 4 panels what additional changes will we need to make.

We want to make the decision this coming week so we can put the panels aside and avoid the tariff.

Thanks as usual...................

 

[Yarome]

7 minutes ago, SWharton said:

We are considering adding more solar to get ahead of the 30% tariff. We have been told the 30% tariff goes into affect on 2/17, no one is too sure what the impact will be. Apparently there are a lot of if/and/but in the law.

We are not serious boondockers, maybe go off grid for 3-4 days at a time. Alaska trip will be more off grid.

We are trying to decide whether we should go to 3 panels(480w) or 4(540w). We were told the #10 wire could handle 3 panels by our installer but someone else told us the wire can handle 4 panels. Does anyone have any feel for this?

If we go to 4 panels what additional changes will we need to make.

We want to make the decision this coming week so we can put the panels aside and avoid the tariff.

Thanks as usual...................

p

3 possibles. 1. You won't feel the price hike for a little while since there is a tariff free allowance on imports. Actually tariff'd panels won't start hitting the markets for a couple 3-5 months~ish. 2. Suppliers will anticipate the tariff and will have already (or soon will be) hiking their prices 'now' to help off-set the later year supplies and to remain more competitive against those that didn't plan ahead. Ie., a 12% hike now so they won't have to have a sudden 30% hike later. (While their competitors are charging +30, they can still charge +12) OR.. 3. Suppliers over anticipate the market, buy like mad to stock up with the tariff exempt allowance which will likely put them in some serious hardship as consumer demand drops... but not before they "burn-off" the allowance and raise the market prices earlier than should have been the case. In that event though... if enough of them over anticipate there are going to be some good deals to be had as that old rule comes into play... "supply & demand".

Bottom line? Buy NOW if you have any plans for expansion in the next couple of years or,,,, roll the dice for surplus discounts later in the year.

#10/2... where? Depends on how you're wiring and where you're using it. All parallel runs to your c-box? Perfectly fine with 540w since they are only carrying single panel loads to your c-box (short run). Series/parallel? Likely still fine with 2x2 arrays (4 total).

#10 from your c-box to your solar controller? Yeah... no. Shouldn't be using it with a single panel if there is any kind of distance (like from your roof to floor level or below. More-so with more panels, but even 3- 135's, and assuming you're staying with 12v...  would be a big no no. Too much current potential. Typically, 10/2 is going to be rated for 30amp max. It's less about the "#" of panels than how large the panels are and what their current potential is.

Distance is going to matter also (in terms of line loss), but really, the major contributing factor is where you're using it.

[Yarome]

41 minutes ago, SWharton said:

If we go to 4 panels what additional changes will we need to make.

Dunno. Which solar controller are you running?

[SWharton]

Controller is a Morningstar Sunsaver Duo. Main reason we are asking is so we go in with some knowledge of what to expect. We are leaning toward getting both panels. We know the price, same price as what we installed in Dec.

 

[Yarome]

13 minutes ago, SWharton said:

Controller is a Morningstar Sunsaver Duo. 

Thattttt's... borderline. Max output rating for 4 would be in the 30amp range. The sunsaver Duo is rated for 25amps input. Sooo.... what are the odds you're going to actually see 30amps? Not likely... however... it's possible you might see 25 and just a "touch'". Safe play would be to upgrade your controller.

I happen to like Morningstar's. A tristar 45amp PWM would set you back around 170 bones and would do you quite nicely. You could probably even get $75~ish back out of your sunsaver. 

[SWharton]

Thanks Jarome  this is the info we are looking for. We are so weak in our knowledge and understanding of all this. We are learning but I doubt we will ever be comfortable with our knowledge.

How did you arrive at 4 panels producing 30 amps? Our math says 640/12=53 amps -20%(fudge factor)=42 amps. Just wondering where we went wrong this time.

[Yarome]

8 minutes ago, SWharton said:

How did you arrive at 4 panels producing 30 amps? Our math says 640/12=53 amps -20%(fudge factor)=42 amps. 

At least you're smart enough to ASK! 

We "call" panels 12v or 24v, but that's not entirely true. You have to use the Vmpp rating of the panels to calculate amps. Ie., a 100watt "12v" panel may have a Vmpp (maximum power) of 18v. So 100/18 would give you a 5.5amp Impp... or maximum rated current.

[Yarome]

Ohh... The other reason would be because you said "540w" in your previous post.. not 640w.  540w=30amps. 640w=35. If that is the case then you most certainly would need to upgrade your controller.

[SWharton]

I will put my trust in you and your math. Way beyond me. Why can't solar life be simple....

OK. We buy 2 panels and a new controller and sell the old controller(hopefully).

Thanks as usual....................

 

[SWharton]

Sorry about the typo............................

[Yarome]

5 minutes ago, SWharton said:

OK. We buy 2 panels and a new controller and sell the old controller(hopefully).

If you're doing Alaska soon you'll "really" appreciate the difference those 2 panels will make in your day to day. You're talking ~140-170ah's of juice a day. That's NONE too shabby!

[Al F]

The best way to determine the wire size to use is to use a wire size calculator, such as: http://nooutage.com/vdrop.htm

The calculator gives a percentage of voltage loss.  Note that a 3% loss is OK, 2% loss is good, and 1% is ideal. 

So taking your proposed install of 640 watts.  Then assuming all the panels are in parallel that gives 35 amps at 18V.  Putting the in wire length from the combiner box to the solar controller into the calculator. ( NOTE: the calculator only requests one way length and automatically calculates the round trip length.)

20 feet-- 10% loss.

30 feet--  14.5% loss

If you wire your 4 panels into two pairs of panels wired in series and then parallel the 2 sets,  your voltage goes from 18V to 36V and your loss would be:

20 feet--  4.8% loss

30 feet--  7.2% loss

Much better but sill a large loss.  Don't take my writings for this wire loss recommendation.  Jack Mayer, a very well respected person on this forum, has on his website the same recommendation, 1% loss is what he wires for.  http://www.jackdanmayer.com/rv_electrical_and_solar.htm#The Golden Rules

If you are happy with spending $$$ on solar and batteries and willing to continually giving up 5-15% of what you paid for, then that is find.  If the installer offered us a 5% discount all of us would be happy, a 15% discount, thrilled.  But a simple thing of wire size costing us the 5% to 15% of power we don't worry about.

It is not a case of will the wire handle the panels, is how much loss in power from the panels are you willing to accept.

 

[SWharton]

Thanks AL will print this out and do our google research. We have the panels reserved. Just working on the details...................

[SWharton]

We did all our reading and educating.

We are working on our solar purchase. If we went with 4 panels, #4 wire, combiner, new controller and monitor price is around $1200+installation. Our installer suggested another option: install another 2 panel system with another controller price is around $800+installation.

Any thoughts on this? We like the second system since it is $400 less and will give us a backup system is something happens to the other.

We will never go  beyond 4 panels, just not that serious of a boondocker and we always have the generator.

Thanks as usual..............

 

[Yarome]

15 hours ago, SWharton said:

install another 2 panel system with another controller

That is most certainly an option.

One thing you would gain by upgrading the controller you have is an improved charge algorithm, more control over your charge profile and, by installing a shunt (if you don't already have one), the capability to install a temp sensor for temp compensated charging (ideal).

The Duo's main "claim to fame" is the ability to manage two seperate banks (ie., house bank and chassis battery), but not especially the capability for the best quality charge.

Without a price quote breakdown it's difficult to say if those prices are "fair" or not. Right off the bat.. $1200 in gear alone seems exceptionally high. $1200 "installed" maybe(?)

[Al F]

22 hours ago, SWharton said:

We did all our reading and educating.

We are working on our solar purchase. If we went with 4 panels, #4 wire, combiner, new controller and monitor price is around $1200+installation. Our installer suggested another option: install another 2 panel system with another controller price is around $800+installation.

Any thoughts on this? We like the second system since it is $400 less and will give us a backup system is something happens to the other.

We will never go  beyond 4 panels, just not that serious of a boondocker and we always have the generator.

Thanks as usual..............

 

I have never examined the pros or cons of a two controller system.  So no opinion there.

"I never say never."  When I plan on doing something, I generally figure I won't do something different.  Kind of like I will never do xyz.  I am usually proven wrong.

A new 60 amp solar controller, with #4 wire from the combiner box to the controller would give you the option to expand in the future.  It also may be more efficient and therefore get you more charging to your batteries.  

$400 is not a huge amount of money compared to the overall cost of the system.  Is it worth while to save the $400?  I can't give you a good answer.   Heck, I spent $3500 on just the 400AH of lithium batteries themselves.  For our RV'ing style I feel it was money well worth spending.