A question for the electricians.

[Tex Bigfoot]

 I own a 5^th wheel and of course it has a GFCI circuit.  4 plugs that are tripped anytime that the main GFCI plug trips.

Is there a safe way to change this so that only the plug that senses a problem trips at a time?

I ask this due to the refrigerator being on this circuit. If the power has a hick up the circuit trips and I may not be aware of it until the propane runs out and the food in the refrigerator is spoiled.

This is happening at home so we don’t check it all the time.

Can I rewire this circuit as a “home run” then install GFCI plugs from a pigtail and remain safe in a wet or possibly wet environment?

[Devilishjim]

JMHO I think the fridg should be on its own circuit

[oldjohnt]

   Tex, good question, here's my take on your situation.

 I agree I would NOT prefer my fridge GFCI protected for the very type of reasons you describe. I WOULD want any exterior receptacles,,,,,,,,,,bathroom receptacles,,,,,,,,,,,,,kitchen receptacles near the sink,,,,,,,,,,,,,, etc. all GFCI protected.

 As far as wiring and what is and what is not protected in a GFCI branch circuit, they typically have a LINE and a LOAD side. The LINE (supply) side could be wired to a circuit breaker (home run if you like)  in your panel and

A) Anything plugged into the GFCI receptacle itself is protected........

B  If you connect another ordinary receptacle fed off the LOAD side of the GFCI............ ITS ALSO PROTECTED

You could run a home run branch circuit to the fridge and use an ordinary non GFCI receptacle to power it so the fridge is NOT GFCI protected (Well DUH) and then downstream on that same branch circuit use a GFCI receptacle in which case its the same as above IE loads plugged into  that receptacle are protected or any loads on a circuit wired off the LOAD side of that GFCI would be protected. However, if the fridge is on a circuit downstream of a GFCI that's fed off its LOAD side, its gonna be protected. 

 A GFCI senses the outgoing current and the incoming return Neutral current  and if there's as little as 5 to 6 milliamps difference in that going out versus that being returned (due to a fault, its being returned elsewhere)  it trips.

I can envision residential NEC conflicts in a case where an outlet or device within 6 feet of the kitchen sink requires protection and if the RV fridge is so located, it may well have been wired that way for a reason???????????????   

In residential applications I recall exceptions for freezers and refrigerators etc. provided they are plugged into a receptacle that is not readily accessible  (like behind the unit) and it was a SINGLE not a duplex receptacle.

I am NOT offering any opinion as to the applicability of the NEC with respect to RV's, but still the theory and safety considerations may be something to consider regardless.  

 

John T NOT an electrician you asked for but a long retired electrical power distribution design engineer, so no warranty and do as the experts or NEC suggests NOT me...........

 

[Tex Bigfoot]

My guess is that the reason it got wired the way it did was cost saving. This is a stand alone circuit and goes to a breaker marked GFCI in the panel 

the refrigerator is in line with the kitchen plugs from the bathroom plug. so they just put them all on one circuit.

I think you just described what I was hoping for . 

let me see if I can describe for you what I think will work you tell me if I'm right. Remove the GFCI plug at the head of the line. tie the hot to hot with a short black lead Or in plumbing terms a Tee. ( in order to reinstall the GFCI plug) do the same with the white and the ground. Then reinstall the GFCI plug.

 I now have all the plugs down stream are not protected so in order to have GFCI protection I need to do the same to them. which would leave any plug that I did not change with only normal circuit breaker protection.IE...... the refrigerator only.

Because I would add GFCI plugs at the wet locations

 

[Tex Bigfoot]

Jim

I agree it needs to be on its own . Its a matter of ease of access and not having to go to the north in order to get south so to speak.

So I'm looking for a safe alterative , we don't use the plugs in the bathroom but someone might some day.

[oldjohnt]

Tex, I apologize but I'm having difficulty understanding what you now have.

 Instead of a GFCI "Receptacle", is there instead a GFCI "Circuit Breaker" in your panel ???

If itsa GFCI circuit breaker then everything on that branch circuit is protected regardless if its an ordinary receptacle and any fault anywhere in that circuit will trip the breaker

If the fridge is plugged into a GFCI receptacle its, of course, protected, and to defeat that you could splice/T off the LINE input side and install a regular receptacle and plug the fridge into it. Remember if its a GFCI receptacle anything plugged into it or anything fed from its LOAD side is protected, but (assuming its NOT a GFCI circuit breaker) the LINE input side is NOTprotected

You mention "plugs" in the bathroom, is it an actual GFCI Receptacle or simply a regular one that's either downstream of an earlier GFCI (like the fridge) or fed from a GFCI circuit breaker in the panel???

If you have a GFCI circuit  breaker in the panel anything on that circuit is protected so the only way to defeat that is run a new home run to the fridge fed by a normal breaker.

Assuming its NOT a GFCI circuit breaker, the LINE input side of a GFCI receptacle IS  NOT PROTECTED so wire up a regular receptacle to there and its NOT protected assuming its not fed from the LOAD side of a prior GFCI

My best pure guess from your post is you have a GFCI circuit breaker and that's fine and all on it are protected so you only have to rig a new receptacle home run fed from the panel with a normal breaker.

To protect outdoor or kitchen or bath or wet location receptacles install a GFCI receptacle in those locations or have only one in the lead with others fed off its LOAD side.

Sorry, I just don't know what you have but hopefully you understand how to accomplish what you need ????

 

John T

 

[Darryl&Rita]

The fridge circuit should be GFI protected, due to the vents on the door to the back of the fridge. It's not water-tight back there.

[Kirk W]

6 hours ago, Tex Bigfoot said:

I agree it needs to be on its own

In most RVs the outlets are all in a "daisy chain" configuration with everything from the GFI on protected by it, That is one reason for the refrigerator to be on it but the other is the fact that the refrigerator outlet is in an area that could be exposed to moisture in wet weather particularly when driving. It probably also serves the outside outlet which is also possible to be exposed to wet conditions. I suspect that RIVA requires that both of them be on that circuit. 

Nearly all GFI outlets have two sets of connections for the outgoing side of the connection, one to have all things protected by the GFI and the other position only the GFI outlet is protected. If it were me, I would want both of those outlets GFI protected. As long as the refrigerator is operated in automatic mode it will not stop if the GFI opens, only shift to propane. 

[57becky]

Instead of daisy chaining the outlets, assuming you are not using a GFI breaker in the panel, you could use GFI outlets at each location you now have standard outlets protected by the first outlet at the start of the circuit.  If you wire the first GFI outlet so it is not daisy chaining other outlets but is just tapped off the wire run, and then install new GFI outlets the same way on the rest of the locations, including the fridge, you will have GFI protection where it is required and then only the one that sees a problem will trip, instead of all the downstream outlets tripping.

[Tex Bigfoot]

15 hours ago, oldjohnt said:

Tex, I apologize but I'm having difficulty understanding what you now have.

 Instead of a GFCI "Receptacle", is there instead a GFCI "Circuit Breaker" in your panel ???

No only a daisy chin of GFCI outlets protected by the 1st in line but it is  stand alone circuit with its own breaker

If itsa GFCI circuit breaker then everything on that branch circuit is protected regardless if its an ordinary receptacle and any fault anywhere in that circuit will trip the breaker

If the fridge is plugged into a GFCI receptacle its, of course, protected, and to defeat that you could splice/T off the LINE input side and install a regular receptacle and plug the fridge into it. Remember if its a GFCI receptacle anything plugged into it or anything fed from its LOAD side is protected, but (assuming its NOT a GFCI circuit breaker) the LINE input side is NOTprotected

You mention "plugs" in the bathroom, is it an actual GFCI Receptacle or simply a regular one that's either downstream of an earlier GFCI (like the fridge) or fed from a GFCI circuit breaker in the panel???

If you have a GFCI circuit  breaker in the panel anything on that circuit is protected so the only way to defeat that is run a new home run to the fridge fed by a normal breaker.

Assuming its NOT a GFCI circuit breaker, the LINE input side of a GFCI receptacle IS  NOT PROTECTED so wire up a regular receptacle to there and its NOT protected assuming its not fed from the LOAD side of a prior GFCI

My best pure guess from your post is you have a GFCI circuit breaker and that's fine and all on it are protected so you only have to rig a new receptacle home run fed from the panel with a normal breaker.

To protect outdoor or kitchen or bath or wet location receptacles install a GFCI receptacle in those locations or have only one in the lead with others fed off its LOAD side.

Sorry, I just don't know what you have but hopefully you understand how to accomplish what you need ????

Thank you I believe I've got it wish I could draw it out and post but never have been able to get a picture to post here 

Break the daisy chain at the first GFCI outlet ( this leaves the rest of the circuit protected only by a regular breaker) then move downstream of the refrigerator and install a second GFCI outlet to protect the other wet locations while leaving them daisy chained.

 

John T

 

 

[Tex Bigfoot]

Thank you Kirk and  57Becky

you both helped to clarify what I'm needing to do .

yes I do realize that the refrigerator plug Could , Maybe , possibly in the next 100 years get wet from the outside but its very doubtful due to the plug being high and away from the outside  panel and it is a chance that I'm willing to take. 

 

 

[oldjohnt]

2 hours ago, Tex Bigfoot said:

Thank you I believe I've got it wish I could draw it out and post but never have been able to get a picture to post here 

Break the daisy chain at the first GFCI outlet ( this leaves the rest of the circuit protected only by a regular breaker) then move downstream of the refrigerator and install a second GFCI outlet to protect the other wet locations while leaving them daisy chained.

You're welcome, Tex

  I think you have it down now CONGRATULATIONS.  Pretty simple now that you have the concept...........

As far as safety (fridge on GFCI or not), its something I'm always preaching on here, but as I always say ITS YOUR RV, YOUR RISK AND YOUR CHOICE.

As far as "daisy chaining" is concerned, "some " certainly not all, electricians and I recall a few inspectors DID NOT PREFER using ordinary receptacle wiring  terminals for "splicing" branch circuit conductors and instead used wire nuts and pigtails BUT THAT WAS THEIR PREFERENCE.  

 Take care and be safe

John T  Hope to be at Escapees in Livingston Texas in a week or so, wave if you're near...............

[Kirk W]

2 hours ago, Tex Bigfoot said:

yes I do realize that the refrigerator plug Could , Maybe , possibly in the next 100 years get wet from the outside but its very doubtful due to the plug being high and away from the outside  panel and it is a chance that I'm willing to take. 

I didn't say that it does happen, I was explaining the reason for the RIVA requirement that it be GFI protected. Refrigerators have been wired in that way for many years before the GFI outlets even existed. Most such installations have the position of t that outlet well to the side and away from the vents of the air inlet and up off of the cabinet floor, so like you, I doubt that it would ever get wet but the other outlet that is at issue is the one found on the outside wall of most RVs and I have seen those get wet enough to cause a problem. If I were building an RV I probably would separate the refrigerator's outlet from the one on the outside wall, but with the RVs that I have owned it would have been very difficult to do that after the construction was completed. 

In the many times that I have been involved in troubleshooting a circuit that is tripping the GFI, I can only remember one time that it came from the refrigerator's 120v outlet so the risk for it is pretty low. I have seen many cases of the source being the one on the outside of the RV. If you can separate the one for the Refrigerator from the outside outlet, then I would probably agree with you. 

[oldjohnt]

1 hour ago, Kirk Wood said:

 

In the many times that I have been involved in troubleshooting a circuit that is tripping the GFI, I can only remember one time that it came from the refrigerator's 120v outlet so the risk for it is pretty low.

EXACTLY, in 47 years of continuous RV ownership (even before the days of GFCI) and sales, I cant recall situations where a fridge was tripping a GFCI. In residential use if an electrical appliance/device etc. whose skin could become energized (hot skin) is within 6 feet of the kitchen sink (a possible current return source) that's when GFCI protection becomes relevant. Again I offer no opinion as to NEC or RVIA related safety considerations.   

John T

 

[Lou Schneider]

I've heard of several cases where the heating element in an absorption fridge developed a short to it's casing.  Usually it burns out shortly thereafter but sometimes the element can fail while leaving the short intact.  It happened once to me.

If there isn't a GFCI protecting the refrigerator this can energize the RV's chassis.  In my case the I never used the electric mode (propane costs less than buying electricity) and I only discovered the problem while tracking down why my rig was tripping shore power GFCI outlets.

A refrigerator uses very little propane, a typical RV tank will last a couple of months feeding only the fridge.  Ensuring the tank is full before youbget home should eliminate the fear of the fridge draining the tank between trips.

[bigjim]

Are you talking about a motorhome? In my experience a 30# cylinder would last me about 2 weeks give or take including a little cooking.

[Tex Bigfoot]

6 hours ago, Kirk Wood said:

I didn't say that it does happen, I was explaining the reason for the RIVA requirement that it be GFI protected. Refrigerators have been wired in that way for many years before the GFI outlets even existed. Most such installations have the position of t that outlet well to the side and away from the vents of the air inlet and up off of the cabinet floor, so like you, I doubt that it would ever get wet but the other outlet that is at issue is the one found on the outside wall of most RVs and I have seen those get wet enough to cause a problem. If I were building an RV I probably would separate the refrigerator's outlet from the one on the outside wall, but with the RVs that I have owned it would have been very difficult to do that after the construction was completed. 

In the many times that I have been involved in troubleshooting a circuit that is tripping the GFI, I can only remember one time that it came from the refrigerator's 120v outlet so the risk for it is pretty low. I have seen many cases of the source being the one on the outside of the RV. If you can separate the one for the Refrigerator from the outside outlet, then I would probably agree with you. 

Yes I agree with the outside 120 V plug , it needs to be GFCI .

This circuit begins in the bath I will tap the circuit so that only the plug is protected . The next in line is the refrigerator it will be protected only by the breaker panel . The next is in the kitchen I will add a GFCI plug and leave the daisy chain that will cover the other kitchen  plug and the outside .Again thank you all for your help

 

[oldjohnt]

16 minutes ago, Tex Bigfoot said:

This circuit begins in the bath I will tap the circuit so that only the plug is protected . The next in line is the refrigerator it will be protected only by the breaker panel . The next is in the kitchen I will add a GFCI plug and leave the daisy chain that will cover the other kitchen  plug and the outside .Again thank you all for your help

Tex, YOU HAVE IT DOWN PAT NOW,,,,,,,,,,,,The LINE input side of the bath GFCI receptacle has normal circuit breaker overcurrent protection so tapping to it will provide the same for the fridge, and adding a GFCI receptacle in the kitchen protects anything plugged into it PLUS any other receptacles that are wired to its LOAD terminal        CONGRATULATIONS        Whether or not to provide GFCI protection for the fridge is obviously YOUR free choice.

John T