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Gaining Weight with a bit of balance.


Dollytrolley

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Seems like every other day some lurker decides to bail out of his super-LGT into the dark side so.......the posts are usually the same.....what kind of driver licence do I need ? How can I register the rig? Can I get the ECM hopped up to 775Hp like my chipped dually? 

And of course the final easy-2+answer question....what wheel base should single to since I have NO IDEA what my new trailer will be or if I will take my D-7 CAT or my pink Vespa on the bed and

.....oh ya what will the pin weight and steer axle weigh if I slide my hitch six feet in front or rear of the driver($) or.... tandems? ? ? ?

Some times I post a RESPONSE offering to email my cobbled up spreadsheet and some folks take the bait and then.......they find that the spreadsheet needs raw-data in order to calculate weight and balance and things get quiet....really quiet....

Once in while a LGT fellow with a big trailer tries the spreadsheet and some of these folks get mad.....go figure.....kill the messenger?

So what if......forget the spreadsheet ($orta)..... what if......

Starting at F-150 Short-bed Lgt to Longbed to 250, 350, 450, 550, ........780....W900.....etc in wheel base increments of....say six inch steps and weights of 200 lb increments were listed in a......epic reference guide that everyone could thumb through while sipping Crown Royal with a dash of Dr Pepper ?  ?     ?       ?

I think this epic tome could be composed in less than 2,000 pages......

So I have done the hard part here....(Tha Idea / Concept)......who wants the "Glory" of making the next 1,999 pages.....

 

Drive on......( No data ......no Glory)

97 Freightshaker Century Cummins M11-370 / 1350 /10 spd / 3:08 /tandem/ 20ft Garage/ 30 ft Curtis Dune toybox with a removable horse-haul-module to transport Dolly-The-Painthorse to horse camps and trail heads all over the Western U S

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????? ummmm NO!  Still gonna have the same issues as before with folks not knowing their present weights & let's not even open tha CG box Amigo.  I'll always be willing to help.... on a one by one basis only.

"There are No Experts, Do the Math!"

2014 Freightliner Cascadia DD16 600hp  1850ft-lb  18spd  3.31  260"wb
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16 minutes ago, NoDirectionHome said:

????? ummmm NO!  Still gonna have the same issues as before with folks not knowing their present weights & let's not even open tha CG box Amigo.  I'll always be willing to help.... on a one by one basis only.

Hay know,

Shucks Knoo these lurkers don't even know the color of the HDT they are drooling over......they just need a few pages of ...."concept-wishfull-weights to throw the $$$ darts at.....

These lurkers are not close to any real world weights.....yet....

 

Drive on......(What if'$.......no actual weights.....yet)

97 Freightshaker Century Cummins M11-370 / 1350 /10 spd / 3:08 /tandem/ 20ft Garage/ 30 ft Curtis Dune toybox with a removable horse-haul-module to transport Dolly-The-Painthorse to horse camps and trail heads all over the Western U S

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Let’s see...my little twuck has about 11,000 lbs a payload, cipher off say 3500 lbs a pin weight, 500 lbs for more fuel than when I weighed it the other day, why that leaves 7000 lbs available for stuff :o. A below deck beer cooler can’t be that heavy...

"Are we there yet?" asked no motorcycle rider, ever. 

 

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20 hours ago, noteven said:

Let’s see...my little twuck has about 11,000 lbs a payload, cipher off say 3500 lbs a pin weight, 500 lbs for more fuel than when I weighed it the other day, why that leaves 7000 lbs available for stuff :o. A below deck beer cooler can’t be that heavy...

Ya know Knott.....you bring up a point that I have been seeing......for the most part the "thumb-up-in-air-method-of-Wt&Bal" seems to be the preferred method at the end of the day for most HDT owners and the truth is that most HDT units have plenty of safety margin that can be used IF your thumb is short

.....

I tend to calculate Wt&Bal since our bed / box combo is fairly long so getting the load right makes the ride much nicer well worth a 40 sec tickle of the spreadsheet.....

Maybe my idea of a table of example HDT Wt&Bal is way ahead of it's time so

......maybe I just might cobble up a few generic short and long bed LGT tables to give the super-pickup boys and girls some giggles.......

Drive on.......(thumb-up works...... sometimes)

97 Freightshaker Century Cummins M11-370 / 1350 /10 spd / 3:08 /tandem/ 20ft Garage/ 30 ft Curtis Dune toybox with a removable horse-haul-module to transport Dolly-The-Painthorse to horse camps and trail heads all over the Western U S

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When you do a Wt&Bal every time it becomes a standard of the routine, airplanes and boats demand that for stability.    Trucks on the other hand particularly privately operated ones often are way out of the envelope.    I am going to call it what it is, ignorance, not stupidity but, the unknown to the average casual truck user.   

 

You could use a generic 1 ton pick up with a 9K empty weight and a generic tractor at 17K with a 230" WB      Trailers are much harder to quantify do you use a 35' weekender or a 45' full time rig?     Maybe a generic trailer with tandem axles and a 20% pin load, say 4K and 6K.     

 

Steve  

2005 Peterbilt 387-112 Baby Cat 9 speed U-shift

1996/2016 remod Teton Royal Atlanta

1996 Kentucky 48 single drop stacker garage project

 catdiesellogo.jpg.e96e571c41096ef39b447f78b9c2027c.jpg Pulls like a train, sounds like a plane....faster than a Cheetah sniffin cocaine.   

 

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59 minutes ago, Steve from SoCal said:

When you do a Wt&Bal every time it becomes a standard of the routine, airplanes and boats demand that for stability.    Trucks on the other hand particularly privately operated ones often are way out of the envelope.    I am going to call it what it is, ignorance, not stupidity but, the unknown to the average casual truck user.   

 

You could use a generic 1 ton pick up with a 9K empty weight and a generic tractor at 17K with a 230" WB      Trailers are much harder to quantify do you use a 35' weekender or a 45' full time rig?     Maybe a generic trailer with tandem axles and a 20% pin load, say 4K and 6K.     

 

Steve  

Steve,

Good examples to play with.....

Would you mind sending me a email at.

Mmcdan3189@aol.com

And I will send you a copy of my spreadsheet and you could fiddle around with some examples.....

The spreadsheet has both the truck AND the trailer on the same sheet and they are live-linked together so if you flush the Biffy in the trailer the "transfer" of "mass" from the clear water tank to the black water tank allows the spreadsheet to live-adjust the weights of the trailer axles, hitch, truck drivers and steer axle....just what the average RV geek needs to know.....

What the heck.....

Drive on......(who knows..,.)

97 Freightshaker Century Cummins M11-370 / 1350 /10 spd / 3:08 /tandem/ 20ft Garage/ 30 ft Curtis Dune toybox with a removable horse-haul-module to transport Dolly-The-Painthorse to horse camps and trail heads all over the Western U S

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A MD or HD cab & chassis vertical cg is below the frame rail as they leave the factory.  Truck "upfitter" engineers are looking at mass placed higher and higher on the chassis.  Braking standards are (if I remember) met with vertical cg at or below 65" above the frame rail - anything exceeding that requires a certification of braking compliance. 

connecting a heavy stiff hitch "pony" trailer more  than 1.6 meters (63 inches +/-) behind the centerline of the rear wheelbase is bad juju. A RV "fiver" is like a pony kind of. Not much weight on the hitch, axles nearly in the middle of the trailer. Floatin around.

Straight trucks: carrying substantial mass behind the rear wheelbase is bad juju.  Box length overhang is also considered due to body swing on corners and yaw stability on slippery roads or emergency manouevers. 

My little phart KW requires more input from Otto the Pilot towing a 11,000lbs/1350lbs hitch weight travel trailer on the back end receiver than it does with 18,000lbs 3400lbs pin "fiver" hitched to the 5th wheel which is centered over the rear axle....

Not sure I will get over a scale with the TT before the snow flies to see how much it unloads the front axle but it is noticed by my expert touch on the controls :D

So long story short Dolly and Steve I agree totally with doing a careful weight distribution if you are designing a HDT RV towmobile with the hitch dangling way back, one rear axle removed without a brake timing test, and a drom, and 900 gallon fuel tanks that may be full or empty, and a car deck which may or may not be loaded while towing hitched way back,  and a generator behind the rear axle and a Nascar tool set, etc etc

"Are we there yet?" asked no motorcycle rider, ever. 

 

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13 hours ago, noteven said:

A MD or HD cab & chassis vertical cg is below the frame rail as they leave the factory.  Truck "upfitter" engineers are looking at mass placed higher and higher on the chassis.  Braking standards are (if I remember) met with vertical cg at or below 65" above the frame rail - anything exceeding that requires a certification of braking compliance. 

connecting a heavy stiff hitch "pony" trailer more  than 1.6 meters (63 inches +/-) behind the centerline of the rear wheelbase is bad juju. A RV "fiver" is like a pony kind of. Not much weight on the hitch, axles nearly in the middle of the trailer. Floatin around.

Straight trucks: carrying substantial mass behind the rear wheelbase is bad juju.  Box length overhang is also considered due to body swing on corners and yaw stability on slippery roads or emergency manouevers. 

My little phart KW requires more input from Otto the Pilot towing a 11,000lbs/1350lbs hitch weight travel trailer on the back end receiver than it does with 18,000lbs 3400lbs pin "fiver" hitched to the 5th wheel which is centered over the rear axle....

Not sure I will get over a scale with the TT before the snow flies to see how much it unloads the front axle but it is noticed by my expert touch on the controls :D

So long story short Dolly and Steve I agree totally with doing a careful weight distribution if you are designing a HDT RV towmobile with the hitch dangling way back, one rear axle removed without a brake timing test, and a drom, and 900 gallon fuel tanks that may be full or empty, and a car deck which may or may not be loaded while towing hitched way back,  and a generator behind the rear axle and a Nascar tool set, etc etc

Knott,

Good points to consider and your comments regarding handling differences with different hitch locations and loads really bring home that many RV HDT owners often seem to miss.....that point is that it is often possible to enhance the ride quality and rig handling by working a few Wt & Bal calculations and then making a few adjustments to have a better trip and treat the machinery better.

If you would run some "what-if" calculations on your rig just shoot me a email at.    Mmcdan3189@aol.com and I will email back the spreadsheet that you can fiddle with...

 

Drive on......(better balance...... better trip)

97 Freightshaker Century Cummins M11-370 / 1350 /10 spd / 3:08 /tandem/ 20ft Garage/ 30 ft Curtis Dune toybox with a removable horse-haul-module to transport Dolly-The-Painthorse to horse camps and trail heads all over the Western U S

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Right, from the newest Volvo Body Builder guide:

Quote

.......

VTNA requires that trucks built shall have a center of gravity height/wheelbase ratio of 0.50 or less when loaded to a weight not exceeding GVWR* distributed proportionately to, but not exceeding GWVR,* and a center of gravity height not exceeding 1778 mm (70 in.) on single rear axle vehicle or 1905 mm (75 in.) on tandem rear axle vehicles. As a guide, the vertical center of gravity height of the incomplete vehicle, as manufactured by VTNA, may be assumed to be the distance from the ground to the top of the frame side rail measured at the longitudinal midpoint of the vehicle in the unladen condition for single axle vehicles and laden condition for tandem axle vehicles.

........

The frame rail height may be calculated from the chassis diagrams in this document. Also, if you are measuring an unloaded chassis, you may assume the loaded frame rail height to be approximately two inches lower than the bare chassis. Vehicles completed as trucks could require a vertical center of gravity lower than the recommendations above based on the stability considerations of certain vocational body and/or usage situations. The above recommendations consider only vehicle brake performance. If higher vertical center-of-gravity limitations are required for a specific vocational body or application, contact VTNA or submit all chassis specifications along with body and payload information in a request for advice to: Product Information Dept./Sales Engineering.

https://www.volvotrucks.us/-/media/vtna/files/shared/body-builder/manuals/volvo_section-0-body-builder-general-information.pdf/

I would guess that when you calculate the trailer cg component I'd guess it'd be done at the rocker pin height of the hitch at ride height?  Or since it is air suspended does it have a roll center you need to go by?  Or is truck cg vs hitch roll center the whole point of it all?

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There is a roll center, since there is movement sideways on any hitch. But I would not consider it significant unless you are already at an edge condition - and I'd never want to get that close, from a design perspective.  I've done some loose calculations in the past on this, but we have a "stacker" project we are working on that will require some more detailed calculations. I'll post the results here, later (probably much later - like in a month). We will use DT's spreadsheet first, but likely will get Volvo engineering involved as well.

On a somewhat related issue....The cg stuff is important especially when dealing with heavier objects. I've seen a tall drom (8') do scarey stuff with a lot of weight in the top. We will not build a tall drom (limit is 7'), and advise against heavy weights above 3' (in the drom). Henry can tell some stories about large droms.......and heavy cranes in them.

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2 hours ago, Jack Mayer said:

There is a roll center, since there is movement sideways on any hitch. But I would not consider it significant unless you are already at an edge condition - and I'd never want to get that close, from a design perspective.  I've done some loose calculations in the past on this, but we have a "stacker" project we are working on that will require some more detailed calculations. I'll post the results here, later (probably much later - like in a month). We will use DT's spreadsheet first, but likely will get Volvo engineering involved as well.

On a somewhat related issue....The cg stuff is important especially when dealing with heavier objects. I've seen a tall drom (8') do scarey stuff with a lot of weight in the top. We will not build a tall drom (limit is 7'), and advise against heavy weights above 3' (in the drom). Henry can tell some stories about large droms.......and heavy cranes in them.

Jack,

Oh yes the ole rock-n-ROLL thingy.....

Just spitballing here so.....from my hillbilly view the air-ride truck seem a little ......"roll-prone" but where the RV operator seem to have adventures is in the trailer.....

As we all know, when you REALLY have a concise answer that matters we Have to go the Source........UTube.....

 

All kidding aside when you view the MANY RV trailer Roll-Overs you need to stand back and consider the massive roll coupling in the sway event($).....

Many..... Most RV trailers are loaded to the gross or grossly overloaded and the tend to have poor suspension to begin with so roll instability is standard feature from the factory.....

I have a uber-$ecret spreadsheet that is cobbled together from a HUGELY complex marine barge / crane stability testing requirement .  This spreadsheet seems to confirm what I see in the real world of roll......

NO folks please don't ask for the Roll Spreadsheet.....it ain't leaving my computer.....it ain't even close to prime-time.

Dolly-the-paint-horse has suspension that a NASCAR geek would kill for and she has never fell down in +40,000 miles of my jerky shifts and swerves to miss boulders and drunk drivers.....pretty amazing considering that the average horses brain is about as small as many truck drivers but still bigger than my brain......

Now Dolly-the-paint-horse does roll every day just after breakfast but for the most part she can traverse grounds that most people would stumble over and she has Four feet to keep track of....Dolly has a vertical CG that far exceeds the .50 Volvo specs however Dolly has a sensor and software suspension program($) that Volvo could not even comprehend.....or afford....

So where do all the V C G numbers lead to.......keep the trailer light and the loads low to the ground.....like the NASCAR geeks......

Don't try to mimic Dolly-the-paint-horse suspension or loading ......her "$ystems" are just too advanced to mimic.....now Dolly does roll her eyes a bit when my fat butt adds a Lot to her already high V CG .......if you put those numbers in the spreadsheet the Volvo Engineers would fall over dead......don't ask, don't tell.

 

Drive on.......(try to keep "things" light and......low)

 

 

 

97 Freightshaker Century Cummins M11-370 / 1350 /10 spd / 3:08 /tandem/ 20ft Garage/ 30 ft Curtis Dune toybox with a removable horse-haul-module to transport Dolly-The-Painthorse to horse camps and trail heads all over the Western U S

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The rv goal seems to be not to use stability capability of the tractor but to isolate the trailer unto itself as much as possible through narrow upper and lower 5th wheel plates, side to side oscillating 5th wheel connections, air suspended  hitches etc. due to their less than robust enough construction I guess...

And then stuff as much stuff as possible into every nook and cranny built as high in the air as possible...

Looking at flop over accidents involving semi trailer combinations, the trailer always goes first due to it's high cg in relation to the tractor, and then takes the tractor over. 

Yaw control is my main concern towing any rv trailer due to their long tail design and their little trolley wheels halfway down the unit giving them their floaty nature.  Floaty hitch plus reduced steer axle braking traction could equal an unexpected "hold my beer and watch this!" moment. Emergency swerve to avoid = danger. Crosswinds = danger. Ice = danger. Wet roads in normally dry land = oil and water danger.  

Anyways I prefer configurations that are inherently stable as possible when any and all moveable cargo is left behind, and adding cargo increases stability rather than detracts from it. 

The images below are of train derailments during a good old Alberta "wind event" 2 evenings ago. The wind blew the cars off the track.  The trestle is 50 miles from me. It was breezing 50 gusting to 75 mph here.  The other cars in the ditch were about 150 miles west of here. 

I was actually feeling unusual yaw and stability changes in my 40ft  3 axle "fiver".  And it was parked. We stayed upright.   :o:D:D

CN derailment.jpg

CN derailment 2.jpg

"Are we there yet?" asked no motorcycle rider, ever. 

 

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Bit surprised atcha DollyTrolly. Didn't think you were all that wild about getting into a long discussion about sway, waggle, weight, balance, and flying trucks. But heck, if ya'll are gonna start up, I might as well play too.

For reference, we have a 2001 Volvo 770, singled mid at 230". An unusual feature is an aluminum bed. Purchased that way. (we all make silly mistakes) Truck weighs nominal 17K

Trailer is an XLR ToyHauler, 44' overall, with a 14' garage, sitting on 3 axles. Trailer weighs nominal 18K. We don't haul water around. Clean, fresh, gray, black, just a couple of gallons in the hot water heater. I do carry 15 gallons of gas for the generator.

On longer trips we carry a Smart on the deck of the truck, paper towels, two bags of tools, the ramps, and the dog. The smart adds 1800 lbs, ramps are 150, dog is 40.  When the two motorcycles go, one is a 3 wheel Spyder and the other is a HD Street Glide. Spyder is about 1000# and the Harley is about 850#. The bikes go in the garage to travel.

A year or so ago, we took an around the country trip, drove 12500 miles and had no issues with sway. (so I thought - we'll come back to that foolishness in a minute). During the following season, we took a couple of shorter trips either without the bikes or without the smart, but in either case, not the typical full load.

With reliable (not village drunks) following us, I was informed that the trailer was swaying from side over a foot outside the lane I was in. Think total movement of about 3-4 ft.   By the way, for those of you that are interested, the rig was fully loaded and weighed wheel for wheel by Trey & Susan. Pin weight was around 2500# at 13%

Sooooo...I figgered it was time to try to sort it out.

There are as many opinions about why as there are grains of sand on a beach. When you scrape all the poop out of the way, comes down to only a very few that are even plausible. Watch the YouTube video - it's instructive.

Weight - Brute Force method, add lots of weight everywhere so nothing can affect it (Damping)

Weight - Move all the weight in the trailer forward if there's room

Weight - Change the center of gravity by moving the axle(s) to the rear to generate the correct pin weight. 

To Continue

...The Brute Force method works, or, at least, appears to work only because the oscillation forces aren't violent enough to overcome the inertia or weight of the truck. In other words, it ain't fixed, it just looks like it. With the aluminum bed weighing in at around 900# compared to over a ton you get quite a bit more damping effect with a steel bed. Same deal for tandem rears. Unfortunately, we are already about 700# overweight. No fair adding more weight in selective areas.

Weight Shifting actually does work IF you can shift enough stuff around. With our toy hauler, we have nearly 14' of cantilever overhang. Other than the motorcycles, we have a washer / dryer set back there. They don't move. The rest of it is tie-down straps, a few chocks, dirty socks, lawn chairs, and an ice chest. Not much in the way of weight. The big slides and food cabinets are all located over the axles, pretty much a "0" in the balance calc's.

And Finally....the dreaded axle relocation. Trust me when I tell you that you will have no friends in this endeavor. Your best bud from 3rd grade will tell you that adding weight on the tractor will stop it absotutely unless it doesn't which means you need to add water tanks under the 5th wheel and mumble..No dealer will do the work because no formal engineering study was done and they aren't certified to design/build, only to replace in kind. It ain't cheap. There's stuff in the way, like skirting, and levelers and steps and whatnot. Wheel cutouts most likely won't line up.

So whats the point of all this rambling BS??

Stay Tuned - More to follow

Sorry for the chopped up delivery, this one handed typing after my shoulder replacement only lets me do half of the alphabet at a time. 

So, after much gnashing of teeth, listening to an infinite number of solutions (or pre-meditated disasters), seems to me that the only real "fix" is to move the axles toward the rear of the trailer.

Here's where the ugly decisions start. If you do nothing, you'll be fine if you only drive 40 mph, but otherwise danger could be lurking. So First, get a good accurate weight. By axle at least, by wheel won't hurt, but for this, doesn't help much either. We're not building watches or flying areo-planes here. Use one of the W+B work sheets to figure out what % of weight is on the kingpin. There are at least two on the forum, one measured in Dolly inches and the other in feet. I've also seen one based on percent of total. Do that for each configuration you intend to use, ie. Smart, no Smart, Razer, bikes,etc. Most of the W+B sheets will tell you the amount of weight on the king pin for a given length of trailer (engineer types call this "Moment", Rednecks call it "how long a 2X4 do you need Bobby Joe?) Looking at the various solutions you got from the W+B sheets, pick the one that has about 20% of the total weight of the trailer. That will tell you the length of the moment (the distance between the hitch and the rear most trailer axle) that you should have. 

Now that you know what you need, what do you need to do? With luck, nothing. With a bit less luck, just slow down a little bit and nothing else need be done. Not enough? It's your family, go back and see what weight you can relocate. If all that fails and you elect to move the trailer axles, understand that you are opening a bushel basket size can of worms.

More coming...

 

Paul & Paula + Daisy the amazing wiggle worm dog...

2001 Volvo 770 Autoshift, Singled, w/ Aluminum Bed - Toy Draggin

2013 395AMP XLR Thunderbolt Toy Hauler

2013 Smart Passion

2012 CanAm Spyder RT

2013 Harley Davidson Street Glide

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1 hour ago, adept99 said:

Bit surprised atcha DollyTrolly. Didn't think you were all that wild about getting into a long discussion about sway, waggle, weight, balance, and flying trucks. But heck, if ya'll are gonna start up, I might as well play too.

For reference, we have a 2001 Volvo 770, singled mid at 230". An unusual feature is an aluminum bed. Purchased that way. (we all make silly mistakes) Truck weighs nominal 17K

Trailer is an XLR ToyHauler, 44' overall, with a 14' garage, sitting on 3 axles. Trailer weighs nominal 18K. We don't haul water around. Clean, fresh, gray, black, just a couple of gallons in the hot water heater. I do carry 15 gallons of gas for the generator.

On longer trips we carry a Smart on the deck of the truck, paper towels, two bags of tools, the ramps, and the dog. The smart adds 1800 lbs, ramps are 150, dog is 40.  When the two motorcycles go, one is a 3 wheel Spyder and the other is a HD Street Glide. Spyder is about 1000# and the Harley is about 850#. The bikes go in the garage to travel.

A year or so ago, we took an around the country trip, drove 12500 miles and had no issues with sway. (so I thought - we'll come back to that foolishness in a minute). During the following season, we took a couple of shorter trips either without the bikes or without the smart, but in either case, not the typical full load.

With reliable (not village drunks) following us, I was informed that the trailer was swaying from side over a foot outside the lane I was in. Think total movement of about 3-4 ft.   By the way, for those of you that are interested, the rig was fully loaded and weighed wheel for wheel by Trey & Susan. Pin weight was around 2500# at 13%

Sooooo...I figgered it was time to try to sort it out.

There are as many opinions about why as there are grains of sand on a beach. When you scrape all the poop out of the way, comes down to only a very few that are even plausible. Watch the YouTube video - it's instructive.

Weight - Brute Force method, add lots of weight everywhere so nothing can affect it (Damping)

Weight - Move all the weight in the trailer forward if there's room

Weight - Change the center of gravity by moving the axle(s) to the rear to generate the correct pin weight.

 

 

Well P & P,

There ya go shooting a hole in my sermon on the rock-n-roll stump.....sorta

In your case you seem fairly "light" but in the real world it's likely several factors that conspire to make your RV into a "wiggle-wagon"...

I will need some time to compose my .........next sermon so hang in there .........right now I have to hide the chainsaws from memory-loss-mom-n-law .........she is presently a bit grumpy.

IF I do not get back to you in a day or two...... that may mean...... that she found the chainsaw and got one started........gulp.

 

Drive on.........(Wiggle-wagon....not fun....)

97 Freightshaker Century Cummins M11-370 / 1350 /10 spd / 3:08 /tandem/ 20ft Garage/ 30 ft Curtis Dune toybox with a removable horse-haul-module to transport Dolly-The-Painthorse to horse camps and trail heads all over the Western U S

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4 hours ago, adept99 said:

With reliable (not village drunks) following us,

Hey, I resemble that remark.  Though I only drink moderately, I have been accused of being the village fool..........

In Paul's case, it appears that several small factors are conspiring against him:

1) Light drive axle on the truck when not loaded with the smart.

2) Trailer is designed to carry less load in the garage, relative to weight in the tanks.

3) High CG of the trailer.

4) less than optimum pin weight, but this is a factor of item 2.

  Following Paul for several hundred miles back in August, it seemed dips at the ends of bridged would initiate a pitching, which unloaded the rear axle of the truck, then the wiggle-waggle would get to going.  Just add a grass skirt and some drums.

Re-surfacing the truck bed with 6" of 4000# cement, 5/8" re-bar 6"o/c might help.  Adding water to the tanks also might help, but would make the trailer grossly overloaded.

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Henry and I worked on an extreme case of the situation Paul describes - light pin weight along with considerable mass in the rear.  It was truly "ugly" and was never properly resolved. Only "masked" with a "solution". There is no denying physics. In the case I'm talking about the truck was pretty much out of control, and could be put in that condition at will. Initially the hitch was rear of the axle, but not excessively. It was moved to forward of the axle. That had no real effect, although it did improve things slightly...and I mean slightly. The final resolution was to mask the situation with an F550. In that case, the condition still existed and would occur, but be "hidden" somewhat by the truck suspension. It still happened, though. That rig is still being driven in that condition, as far as I know.

The lesson is that you MUST have adequate pin weight, before even considering the other issues.

Jack & Danielle Mayer #60376 Lifetime Member
Living on the road since 2000

PLEASE no PM's. Email me. jackdanmayer AT gmail
2016 DRV Houston 44' 5er (we still have it)
2022 New Horizons 43' 5er
2016 Itasca 27N 28' motorhome 
2019 Volvo 860, D13 455/1850, 236" wb, I-Shift, battery-based APU
No truck at the moment - we use one of our demo units
2016 smart Passion, piggyback on the truck
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See our website for info on New Horizons 5th wheels, HDTs as tow vehicles, communications on the road, and use of solar power
www.jackdanmayer.com
Principal in RVH Lifestyles. RVH-Lifestyles.com

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5 hours ago, adept99 said:

Bit surprised atcha DollyTrolly. Didn't think you were all that wild about getting into a long discussion about sway, waggle, weight, balance, and flying trucks. But heck, if ya'll are gonna start up, I might as well play too.

For reference, we have a 2001 Volvo 770, singled mid at 230". An unusual feature is an aluminum bed. Purchased that way. (we all make silly mistakes) Truck weighs nominal 17K

Trailer is an XLR ToyHauler, 44' overall, with a 14' garage, sitting on 3 axles. Trailer weighs nominal 18K. We don't haul water around. Clean, fresh, gray, black, just a couple of gallons in the hot water heater. I do carry 15 gallons of gas for the generator.

On longer trips we carry a Smart on the deck of the truck, paper towels, two bags of tools, the ramps, and the dog. The smart adds 1800 lbs, ramps are 150, dog is 40.  When the two motorcycles go, one is a 3 wheel Spyder and the other is a HD Street Glide. Spyder is about 1000# and the Harley is about 850#. The bikes go in the garage to travel.

A year or so ago, we took an around the country trip, drove 12500 miles and had no issues with sway. (so I thought - we'll come back to that foolishness in a minute). During the following season, we took a couple of shorter trips either without the bikes or without the smart, but in either case, not the typical full load.

With reliable (not village drunks) following us, I was informed that the trailer was swaying from side over a foot outside the lane I was in. Think total movement of about 3-4 ft.   By the way, for those of you that are interested, the rig was fully loaded and weighed wheel for wheel by Trey & Susan. Pin weight was around 2500# at 13%

Sooooo...I figgered it was time to try to sort it out.

There are as many opinions about why as there are grains of sand on a beach. When you scrape all the poop out of the way, comes down to only a very few that are even plausible. Watch the YouTube video - it's instructive.

Weight - Brute Force method, add lots of weight everywhere so nothing can affect it (Damping)

Weight - Move all the weight in the trailer forward if there's room

Weight - Change the center of gravity by moving the axle(s) to the rear to generate the correct pin weight.

 

 

 

27 minutes ago, rickeieio said:

Hey, I resemble that remark.  Though I only drink moderately, I have been accused of being the village fool..........

In Paul's case, it appears that several small factors are conspiring against him:

1) Light drive axle on the truck when not loaded with the smart.

2) Trailer is designed to carry less load in the garage, relative to weight in the tanks.

3) High CG of the trailer.

4) less than optimum pin weight, but this is a factor of item 2.

  Following Paul for several hundred miles back in August, it seemed dips at the ends of bridged would initiate a pitching, which unloaded the rear axle of the truck, then the wiggle-waggle would get to going.  Just add a grass skirt and some drums.

Re-surfacing the truck bed with 6" of 4000# cement, 5/8" re-bar 6"o/c might help.  Adding water to the tanks also might help, but would make the trailer grossly overloaded.

 

10 minutes ago, Jack Mayer said:

Henry and I worked on an extreme case of the situation Paul describes - light pin weight along with considerable mass in the rear.  It was truly "ugly" and was never properly resolved. Only "masked" with a "solution". There is denying physics. In the case I'm talking about the truck was pretty much out of control, and could be put in that condition at will. Initially the hitch was rear of the axle, but not excessively. It was moved to forward of the axle. That had no real effect, although it did improve things slightly...and I mean slightly. The final resolution was to mask the situation with an F550. In that case, the condition still existed and would occur, but be "hidden" somewhat by the truck suspension. It still happened, though. That rig is still being driven in that condition, as far as I know.

The lesson is that you MUST have adequate pin weight, before even considering the other issues.

P & P,

Now obviously I am pretty much the "Ex-Pert" on these subjects since I was the go-fer (Pizza, Dr Pepper.....flowers for wives...etc.) for a bunch of BIG-Brain vehicle-dynamic engineers……….so how much “Vehicle-Dynamics” rubbed off on the lowly pilot……..just enough to stay alive…….

 

So…...since I opened my pie trap a crammed both feet in I guess I can just dig this hole deeper……

 

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.”

 

Now some of you might think that some famous Big-Brain guy made the above quote but no…...this was written by a guy trying to get the pin weight at the sweet-spot on a RV trailer……

 

ALL Three posts above concentrate on …...Weight…...Weight…...and location(s) of…..Weight.

 

 

 

Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted.”

 

Maybe Weight and weight location(s) are NOT the total problems with this trailer…..imagine the cheep RV suspension might not be ….stable??

 

 

A man should look for what is, and not for what he thinks should be.”

 

Now this quote of mine really ticks me off in that another geek with Albert in his name has taken credit for this quote…... but trust me this is me simply me preaching…..that while Weight and Weight Distribution are factors in RV trailer instability or stability it is only ONE of many others important factors that compose the handling qualities of a RV trailer.

 

 

It’s not that I’m so smart, it’s just that I stay with problems longer.”

 

Once again, if you can NOT cram enough weight over the hitch pin perhaps one might widen out and improve the suspension(s) and tires ? Does it take a much more “stable” truck to tow this marginal trailer in it's present configuration? Has a tandem truck towed this trailer?

 

 

If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.”

 

This quote might support Rick's suggestion of pouring 4K pounds of concrete in the front bedroom floor…..maybe not….
 

 

We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them.”

 

Once again if enough weight can not be added to fit the “Norms-Of-RV-Trailers” perhaps other factors need to be considered.
 

 

"Any man who can drive safely while kissing a pretty girl is simply not giving the kiss the attention it deserves."

 

I threw this quote in from the other Albert guy because he obviously knows more about girls than me (or Phil)….knows. Sounds likely more fun but it could cause a rig to swerve…….

 

Drive on…...(Lotsa other factors to consider than pin…...and garage ...weight)

97 Freightshaker Century Cummins M11-370 / 1350 /10 spd / 3:08 /tandem/ 20ft Garage/ 30 ft Curtis Dune toybox with a removable horse-haul-module to transport Dolly-The-Painthorse to horse camps and trail heads all over the Western U S

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15 hours ago, adept99 said:

Bit surprised atcha DollyTrolly. Didn't think you were all that wild about getting into a long discussion about sway, waggle, weight, balance, and flying trucks. But heck, if ya'll are gonna start up, I might as well play too.

For reference, we have a 2001 Volvo 770, singled mid at 230". An unusual feature is an aluminum bed. Purchased that way. (we all make silly mistakes) Truck weighs nominal 17K

Trailer is an XLR ToyHauler, 44' overall, with a 14' garage, sitting on 3 axles. Trailer weighs nominal 18K. We don't haul water around. Clean, fresh, gray, black, just a couple of gallons in the hot water heater. I do carry 15 gallons of gas for the generator.

On longer trips we carry a Smart on the deck of the truck, paper towels, two bags of tools, the ramps, and the dog. The smart adds 1800 lbs, ramps are 150, dog is 40.  When the two motorcycles go, one is a 3 wheel Spyder and the other is a HD Street Glide. Spyder is about 1000# and the Harley is about 850#. The bikes go in the garage to travel.

A year or so ago, we took an around the country trip, drove 12500 miles and had no issues with sway. (so I thought - we'll come back to that foolishness in a minute). During the following season, we took a couple of shorter trips either without the bikes or without the smart, but in either case, not the typical full load.

With reliable (not village drunks) following us, I was informed that the trailer was swaying from side over a foot outside the lane I was in. Think total movement of about 3-4 ft.   By the way, for those of you that are interested, the rig was fully loaded and weighed wheel for wheel by Trey & Susan. Pin weight was around 2500# at 13%

Sooooo...I figgered it was time to try to sort it out.

There are as many opinions about why as there are grains of sand on a beach. When you scrape all the poop out of the way, comes down to only a very few that are even plausible. Watch the YouTube video - it's instructive.

Weight - Brute Force method, add lots of weight everywhere so nothing can affect it (Damping)

Weight - Move all the weight in the trailer forward if there's room

Weight - Change the center of gravity by moving the axle(s) to the rear to generate the correct pin weight. 

To Continue

...The Brute Force method works, or, at least, appears to work only because the oscillation forces aren't violent enough to overcome the inertia or weight of the truck. In other words, it ain't fixed, it just looks like it. With the aluminum bed weighing in at around 900# compared to over a ton you get quite a bit more damping effect with a steel bed. Same deal for tandem rears. Unfortunately, we are already about 700# overweight. No fair adding more weight in selective areas.

Weight Shifting actually does work IF you can shift enough stuff around. With our toy hauler, we have nearly 14' of cantilever overhang. Other than the motorcycles, we have a washer / dryer set back there. They don't move. The rest of it is tie-down straps, a few chocks, dirty socks, lawn chairs, and an ice chest. Not much in the way of weight. The big slides and food cabinets are all located over the axles, pretty much a "0" in the balance calc's.

And Finally....the dreaded axle relocation. Trust me when I tell you that you will have no friends in this endeavor. Your best bud from 3rd grade will tell you that adding weight on the tractor will stop it absotutely unless it doesn't which means you need to add water tanks under the 5th wheel and mumble..No dealer will do the work because no formal engineering study was done and they aren't certified to design/build, only to replace in kind. It ain't cheap. There's stuff in the way, like skirting, and levelers and steps and whatnot. Wheel cutouts most likely won't line up.

So whats the point of all this rambling BS??

Stay Tuned - More to follow

 

P & P

Now you did it......your wiggle-wagon has...... infected my stock / horse trailer sorta like eboli ........this sickness is contagious......sorta

Two weeks ago we loaded Dolly-the-paint-horse in her 1984 old-time four horse straight-load trailer with her riding loose in the back half so she can turn around and smile at folks following.....we were taking her on a forty mile round trip to the tooth-vet to have her  6 month / $270 tooth leveling done.....

As we headed out of town and gained speed at about 45 mph I started to feel a cyclical vibration come and go......hummmm....at 50 mph it increased but at 57 mph things got smooth......hummmm.....ok my dim little red warning light starting to glow a bit so.......I start to muddle through the selection of half truths that I will tell myself that this is not happening....I select a old favorite lie of the "cold-tires-flat-$pots-lie"......

Fast forward to two days ago......horse trailer is empty to make a 40 mile one ton hay run and as we leave town the cyclical vibration appears again but some what worse in amplitude and the cyclical range has widened from 43 to 58 mph.....hummmm my little red warning light is glowing a bit brighter so.....I select another favorite lie...."flat-$pot-tires-and-empty-trailer-no-damping".....two lies......

So.......using the tried and untrue that the more hitch weight the better we loaded the ton of hay in front of the trailer........being a half-A$$ed-ex-pert ($elf-proclaimed) we started the twenty mile trip back to town and at first the cyclical vibration amplitude was about half but at about the ten Mile mark it was at full amplitude and I pulled over to check for loose wheels and whatever.....by the time we get to town the threshold of vibration had lowered to 35 mph and then it happened.......the REAL Ex-pert turned her glare on me and said......"hay bucko ..... Dolly-the-paint-horse ain't setting foot in this trailer UNTILL you fix this trailer.....BUCKO".....

Gulp.....so I get down on my belly and shine a light hard on the suspension and the closer I looked the uglier things were......imagine only +200,000 miles of washboard back pig-trail roads wore out the cheap-no-grease spring and walking beam bolts and bushings.......AND .....  Just to flip me off the driver-$ide walking pivot bolt has warn a two inch slot upward in the mount channel in only EIGHTY miles......gulp.

So Paul.......my point is when things start vibrating dohickies start wearing and wearing and the more things wear the worse things vibrate the more they vibrate and then Dolly-the-paint-horse is not allowed in the trailer....

So do you think that a few thousand miles might have worn your cheep-RV-$usspension to the point that any bridge-joint triggers the wiggle-wagon effect......

The horse trailer vibration is in the "Z axis".......your trailer has a low frequency "Y axis" vibration ($werve)......

Trailers are a royal pain in the A$$......

So today I crawl under the horse trailer and gas-ax off the welded-on nuts and replace all bolts, bushings, and walking beam mounts and then.......good to go for the next 199,999 miles......

 

Drive on........($lower and $lower .....till the wheels fall off)

97 Freightshaker Century Cummins M11-370 / 1350 /10 spd / 3:08 /tandem/ 20ft Garage/ 30 ft Curtis Dune toybox with a removable horse-haul-module to transport Dolly-The-Painthorse to horse camps and trail heads all over the Western U S

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Now you had to do it Dolly.  I wasn't going to tell anyone of my last episode with a vibration on my 1 ton dually.  For a few weeks when I would get in the truck and drive to town I started to feel a vibration between 40 and 60 MPH.  As you mentioned the light red light comes on and I think hmmmm must have lost one of the wheel weights and have a balance problem one on of the wheels.  
Then one time I'm walking up to the truck from the rear and I notice one of the inside dual looks a little odd.  I get down and look at it and its bald and the other tire has about 50% tread.
Hmmmmmm.......So what I was doing was running around on a flat tire and it buffed it smooth.
Did I mention I'm a full fledged truck mechanic for 40 years and know all maintenance and pretrip procedures and only check my tires when I start a long trip!!!!!!!!!!!
So I'm telling this to you Dolly and don't want you to tell anyone else, I'm somewhat embarrassed about it, so mums the word.

As you say (Drive on-  The mechanics vehicles are the worst maintained)
 

"It is better to have more truck than you need than to need more truck than you have"

2001 Volvo 660, Cummins 400 ISX, Eaton 3 Peddle Auto Shift    
2014 Fuzion 40' Toyhauler
2015 Smart Car                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                            

 

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20 minutes ago, dennisvr said:

Now you had to do it Dolly.  I wasn't going to tell anyone of my last episode with a vibration on my 1 ton dually.  For a few weeks when I would get in the truck and drive to town I started to feel a vibration between 40 and 60 MPH.  As you mentioned the light red light comes on and I think hmmmm must have lost one of the wheel weights and have a balance problem one on of the wheels.  
Then one time I'm walking up to the truck from the rear and I notice one of the inside dual looks a little odd.  I get down and look at it and its bald and the other tire has about 50% tread.
Hmmmmmm.......So what I was doing was running around on a flat tire and it buffed it smooth.
Did I mention I'm a full fledged truck mechanic for 40 years and know all maintenance and pretrip procedures and only check my tires when I start a long trip!!!!!!!!!!!
So I'm telling this to you Dolly and don't want you to tell anyone else, I'm somewhat embarrassed about it, so mums the word.

As you say (Drive on-  The mechanics vehicles are the worst maintained)
 

Dennis,

Trust me ...... Our little secret......not a peep.....

Cobbler kids have no shoes.....

Body shop owner has no hood on car....

Pilot gets lost (oh that's normal)....

Anyhow Dennis as a "long-time-truck-geek" you "know" that duals are installed not to carry a load but to have the spare tire installed already..... 

Mum is Tha word......

Drive on......(till the inside dual flat catches fire.....)

97 Freightshaker Century Cummins M11-370 / 1350 /10 spd / 3:08 /tandem/ 20ft Garage/ 30 ft Curtis Dune toybox with a removable horse-haul-module to transport Dolly-The-Painthorse to horse camps and trail heads all over the Western U S

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On 10/20/2017 at 12:30 PM, adept99 said:

Bit surprised atcha DollyTrolly. Didn't think you were all that wild about getting into a long discussion about sway, waggle, weight, balance, and flying trucks. But heck, if ya'll are gonna start up, I might as well play too.

For reference, we have a 2001 Volvo 770, singled mid at 230". An unusual feature is an aluminum bed. Purchased that way. (we all make silly mistakes) Truck weighs nominal 17K

Trailer is an XLR ToyHauler, 44' overall, with a 14' garage, sitting on 3 axles. Trailer weighs nominal 18K. We don't haul water around. Clean, fresh, gray, black, just a couple of gallons in the hot water heater. I do carry 15 gallons of gas for the generator.

On longer trips we carry a Smart on the deck of the truck, paper towels, two bags of tools, the ramps, and the dog. The smart adds 1800 lbs, ramps are 150, dog is 40.  When the two motorcycles go, one is a 3 wheel Spyder and the other is a HD Street Glide. Spyder is about 1000# and the Harley is about 850#. The bikes go in the garage to travel.

A year or so ago, we took an around the country trip, drove 12500 miles and had no issues with sway. (so I thought - we'll come back to that foolishness in a minute). During the following season, we took a couple of shorter trips either without the bikes or without the smart, but in either case, not the typical full load.

With reliable (not village drunks) following us, I was informed that the trailer was swaying from side over a foot outside the lane I was in. Think total movement of about 3-4 ft.   By the way, for those of you that are interested, the rig was fully loaded and weighed wheel for wheel by Trey & Susan. Pin weight was around 2500# at 13%

Sooooo...I figgered it was time to try to sort it out.

There are as many opinions about why as there are grains of sand on a beach. When you scrape all the poop out of the way, comes down to only a very few that are even plausible. Watch the YouTube video - it's instructive.

Weight - Brute Force method, add lots of weight everywhere so nothing can affect it (Damping)

Weight - Move all the weight in the trailer forward if there's room

Weight - Change the center of gravity by moving the axle(s) to the rear to generate the correct pin weight. 

To Continue

...The Brute Force method works, or, at least, appears to work only because the oscillation forces aren't violent enough to overcome the inertia or weight of the truck. In other words, it ain't fixed, it just looks like it. With the aluminum bed weighing in at around 900# compared to over a ton you get quite a bit more damping effect with a steel bed. Same deal for tandem rears. Unfortunately, we are already about 700# overweight. No fair adding more weight in selective areas.

Weight Shifting actually does work IF you can shift enough stuff around. With our toy hauler, we have nearly 14' of cantilever overhang. Other than the motorcycles, we have a washer / dryer set back there. They don't move. The rest of it is tie-down straps, a few chocks, dirty socks, lawn chairs, and an ice chest. Not much in the way of weight. The big slides and food cabinets are all located over the axles, pretty much a "0" in the balance calc's.

And Finally....the dreaded axle relocation. Trust me when I tell you that you will have no friends in this endeavor. Your best bud from 3rd grade will tell you that adding weight on the tractor will stop it absotutely unless it doesn't which means you need to add water tanks under the 5th wheel and mumble..No dealer will do the work because no formal engineering study was done and they aren't certified to design/build, only to replace in kind. It ain't cheap. There's stuff in the way, like skirting, and levelers and steps and whatnot. Wheel cutouts most likely won't line up.

So whats the point of all this rambling BS??

Stay Tuned - More to follow

Sorry for the chopped up delivery, this one handed typing after my shoulder replacement only lets me do half of the alphabet at a time. 

So, after much gnashing of teeth, listening to an infinite number of solutions (or pre-meditated disasters), seems to me that the only real "fix" is to move the axles toward the rear of the trailer.

Here's where the ugly decisions start. If you do nothing, you'll be fine if you only drive 40 mph, but otherwise danger could be lurking. So First, get a good accurate weight. By axle at least, by wheel won't hurt, but for this, doesn't help much either. We're not building watches or flying areo-planes here. Use one of the W+B work sheets to figure out what % of weight is on the kingpin. There are at least two on the forum, one measured in Dolly inches and the other in feet. I've also seen one based on percent of total. Do that for each configuration you intend to use, ie. Smart, no Smart, Razer, bikes,etc. Most of the W+B sheets will tell you the amount of weight on the king pin for a given length of trailer (engineer types call this "Moment", Rednecks call it "how long a 2X4 do you need Bobby Joe?) Looking at the various solutions you got from the W+B sheets, pick the one that has about 20% of the total weight of the trailer. That will tell you the length of the moment (the distance between the hitch and the rear most trailer axle) that you should have. 

Now that you know what you need, what do you need to do? With luck, nothing. With a bit less luck, just slow down a little bit and nothing else need be done. Not enough? It's your family, go back and see what weight you can relocate. If all that fails and you elect to move the trailer axles, understand that you are opening a bushel basket size can of worms.

More coming...

DollyPappa here........I am writing in RED now because when things get a bit crazy I sometimes type in RED because I most likely will get flamed by what fallows........

OK.....THE MAJORITY here in the forum are TRUE believers in that any lateral instability can be mitigated as long as you can pile a few TONS of force into the hitch pin...........AND the only the real way that the "GROUP" seems to want to solve the "pin Weight" issue is by moving the AXLES REARWARD........GULP..........THAT "SOLUTION" is a ROYAL-PAIN-IN-THA-KIE$TER......and NOT easy....

NOW........what THE GROUP really wants is,.......... to move the trailer axle positions RELATIVE to the trailer CENTER of GRAVITY ........SO................SO............REMOVE the forward axle of the trailer...........SHUCKS why not remove not only the forward axle BUT ALSO the CENTER axle..........

NOW.........BEFORE you get out the gas-ax and start cutting axles out of your trailer........wonder out to your trailer and unwind your 35 foot Stanley Tape measure and jot down the following dimensions ........

1. PIN to center of forward AXLE

2. PIN to center of center AXLE

3. PIN to center AXLE

Then email these three Dimensions along with the most current weight slips of your truck and trailer (Trey & Sue?) and I will out of the goodness of my heart REMOVE the AXLES for you and then return the calculations that will give you the actual increases in your pin weight(s).........(My email is:    mmcdan3189@aol.com)

OBVIOUSLY IF you were to remove the forward axle you would likely need to change to TWO remaining axles to higher capacity axles and tires.........NOW IF........IF......you were to remove the front AND CENTER axles the REAR axle and tires would get pretty BIG..........SOMETIMES LESS IS............MORE, better handling........???????

 

DRIVE ON...............(Am I running out of ......RED ink?)

 

 

 

 

 

97 Freightshaker Century Cummins M11-370 / 1350 /10 spd / 3:08 /tandem/ 20ft Garage/ 30 ft Curtis Dune toybox with a removable horse-haul-module to transport Dolly-The-Painthorse to horse camps and trail heads all over the Western U S

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Dolly,

So what you are proposing is that one might, in theory, remove the forward 2 axles and replace the remaining axle with one sized to carry the load?  While to this country boy, this seems pretty straight forward, the wanna-be enjuneer in me  sez it sounds like you're predicting where the frame is gonna buckle.

Need more coffee...........

KW T-680, POPEMOBILE
Newmar X-Aire, VATICAN
Lots of old motorcycles, Moto Guzzi Griso and Spyder F3 currently in the front row
Young enough to play in the dirt as a retired farmer.
contact me at rickeieio1@comcast.net

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2 hours ago, rickeieio said:

Dolly,

So what you are proposing is that one might, in theory, remove the forward 2 axles and replace the remaining axle with one sized to carry the load?  While to this country boy, this seems pretty straight forward, the wanna-be enjuneer in me  sez it sounds like you're predicting where the frame is gonna buckle.

Need more coffee...........

sucker rod trusses, the long way.... big turnbuckle on the one end for tuning... 

no wait this the HDT forum ... a remote actuated planetary gear DC adjustable phase converted turnbuckle on the one end,  strain sensor / laser aligned remote readout transmitted to your iphone, for tuning on the fly

"Are we there yet?" asked no motorcycle rider, ever. 

 

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