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I recently installed two Battle Born lithium batteries and an Ames 2000 watt inverter charger into my travel trailer. Here is how it looks all finished up minus the parallel cables for the two batteries,

 

Here is my real world usage for those batteries

 

 

anybody else using these batteries, I am a big fan. I will no longer carry a generator 2-4 day boondocking trips.

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Welcome to the forum.  Glad to see another lithium battery user. 

I looked at the Battle Born website and the users manual has some good spec info, unlike some other providers of drop in replacements for lead acid batteries.   I didn't take the time to view all of your videos, but what I did watch was informative and well done.

Please give us a report after 6 months and a year of using them and how they worked out.

 

 

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I have to ask just so I know. A brand new user coming out and among his first posts are what amounts to a sales pitch for these batteries....

Do you work for or are you compensated by this battery company in exchange for this post?

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2 hours ago, eddie1261 said:

I have to ask just so I know. A brand new user coming out and among his first posts are what amounts to a sales pitch for these batteries....

Do you work for or are you compensated by this battery company in exchange for this post?

Click on his Avatar and then click on "see their activity".  He has a few more posts which have nothing to do with good comments about things he may or may not have.

I did the above research before I replied to this topic and felt comfortable he is just stating what he has and is wondering if anyone else has the same.

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I should also note that I DID watch the videos after making that inquiry, and got a good bit of intel from them. I plan on using lithium for my solar storage when it's time to buy solar, and I had decided that some time ago.. Expense be damned, I want battery storage I can install once and forget about.

I was only curious because on a music forum I frequent, when new users come on and within their first 3-4 posts they are posting product reviews that seem to be strongly urging the user base to buy what they are showing, then they either work for the company or would paid/given free product to buy a good review. On that forum, that kind of user gets a lifetime ban. After watching his vids, I was 90% certain he was just providing insight from his experiences and he was not really trying to sell anything to anybody. 

I am a fan of lithium because they guarantee so many cycles, and that they can be taken down to nothing if the sun isn't cooperating. Again, I don't want to ever have to look at them again once they are in place or worry that I ran them down too far and shortened their life. That alone is worth the cost to me.

Edited by eddie1261

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6 hours ago, eddie1261 said:

I initially planned to buy 2 at once. I am going to have to space that out over a few months.

If it were me, I just save up for the required time and then put in both Li batteries at the same time. 

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10 hours ago, eddie1261 said:

...........I am a fan of lithium because they guarantee so many cycles, and that they can be taken down to nothing if the sun isn't cooperating. Again, I don't want to ever have to look at them again once they are in place or worry that I ran them down too far and shortened their life. That alone is worth the cost to me.

I don't know of any battery that I would recommend installing and "never have to look at them again".  

To date I have not see reports about long term usage of these "drop in" lithium batteries.  The long term usage reports have been from DIY installations which more tightly control the upper charge voltage and the cutoff for the lowest discharge voltage level than what the drop in batteries do. 

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2 hours ago, Kirk Wood said:

If it were me, I just save up for the required time and then put in both Li batteries at the same time. 

That is a great plan in theory, and I would prefer to do it that way, but finances will prevent it. The way I will be able to afford that second battery is saving that money after my $600 mortgage payment goes away, which means after I am out living in my RV.  Adding the second one will be a simple thing because of where they will live. I have already designed a wooden "retainer" for one of the underneath compartments, right below where the controller and inverter will live,  and when the time comes to add #2 it will be a simple matter of installing 2 12" cables. One of the attractive things for me is that they are only 30 pounds. I don't lift weights anymore. 90 pound batteries would require help to lift, and I have no help. Roof space is dictating what I can have, and I will be able to go with one 265w panel, based on roof real estate. Beyond that, I don't have room, as it's just a 25 ft RV, and there will be a weBoost cell booster up there too. Factor in a skylight, roof AC, fan vents.... not much room up there. What I might do is carry a suitcase set for another 120w and set them up when I land, with cables rolled up and stored underneath waiting to be plugged in when I land somewhere and set them out. I talked that option through on the phone with Renogy and they assured me that would work out fine.

I watched the testing videos that NDNomad did, and that was great info. One thing to consider there is whether that he doesn't appear to be using solar panels to recharge them, so the fact that he went 92 hours before needing to charge was awesome. Then factor in that as long as the sun is out, in my case I would be recharging them every day, and I like the idea of how this should work.

I have all kind of notes on the computer about this to help me remember basic basics, like wiring from the batteries back toward the panels, doing the panels last, so the power has somewhere to go. That kind of thing comes natural for me from IT work where you start troubleshooting at the wall outlet and work back toward the computer. This kind of "learning something new" is where the excitement lies for me. I am going to get to watch TV and browse the internet on power generated by the sun. Just one generation back, my father would have laughed at that idea. And that is the perspective I have on things like that. He was born in 1917. When he was born there was no air travel and no television. In 1969, well within his life span, he saw television from the moon. That kind of technological advancement came in one generation. Devices in your shirt pocket that are essentially small computers that can be configured to make telephone calls? Robots that vacuum your floor? Phone calls where you can see the other party on a screen? Isn't the Apply wrist phone what Dick Tracy had? The Jetsons had it right.

Oh, I do ramble on sometimes, don't I? So back to your point, yes, I would like to buy both at once. Finances will prevent that. I was sure I wanted lithium before I watched those videos. His thorough testing made me even more sure. He did a good job on those.

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2 hours ago, Al F said:

I don't know of any battery that I would recommend installing and "never have to look at them again".  

To date I have not see reports about long term usage of these "drop in" lithium batteries.  The long term usage reports have been from DIY installations which more tightly control the upper charge voltage and the cutoff for the lowest discharge voltage level than what the drop in batteries do. 

There is no maintenance on them. No fluid levels. No off gassing....What would I have to check? That the cables are tight? And 30 pounds vs 95? That's for this old guy. And they guarantee 5000 cycles. That's 13.5 years, which takes me to 79. $66 bucks a year per battery. With no maintenance required. Build a nice tight retaining box so they can't bounce around.... I don't know what you mean by that term "drop in". Can you explain that? At some point in any installation, DIY or OEM, weren't they "dropped in"?  LOL!!

Example: My coach batteries are installed in such a way that I can't even reach the hold downs to unscrew them with my fat, stubby little arms. Granted the alligator arms come in handy when it's time for someone to pick up a lunch check, but not for this.  If I managed to do that, I then have to remove the front battery cables, find a way to wrangle a 95 pound battery out of the compartment by myself, then take off the rear battery cables, wrestle THAT one out, open the caps, check the levels, and then reverse the process. I can't lift 95 pounds in that configuration. I can lift 180 on a weightlifting bar, but that is standing on my feet, with a nice wide base, using my legs.... So when I need my existing coach batteries serviced, I have to take the RV somewhere and pay somebody to do it. I know how. I just can't. And I can't stress this enough, I don't want to. That would take me 2 hours to try and do that simple task. I don't want to spend 2 hours doing that. Set 'em and forget 'em sounds much better to me.

This video is pretty well done. Upper charge voltage? I don't really know what you mean by that, but I can deduce that you may mean "When they battery is at 100%, stop charging it".  Isn't that what the charge controller does, control that? Shunt off any voltage beyond capacity? The video I linked here tests where they ran the batteries OUT to 0% remaining and it recharged to 100% the next day.

I had an old timer on another forum tell me how I MUST have 2 pairs of 6v golf cart batteries wired in series parallel because that's what HE has and it works so well for him. Well, I'm sure it does. I don't want to, and can't, lift extremely compact 95 pound cubes of lead. And I don't want to deal with battery acid. Lithium is my answer to that problem. 30 pounds, no acid. I may, at some point, even replace the coach batteries with lithium. For now, just the solar storage will be lithium.

So can you please elaborate on what "drop in lithium batteries" means?

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On 10/11/2017 at 9:43 AM, eddie1261 said:

There is no maintenance on them. No fluid levels. No off gassing....What would I have to check? That the cables are tight? And 30 pounds vs 95? That's for this old guy. And they guarantee 5000 cycles. That's 13.5 years, which takes me to 79. $66 bucks a year per battery. With no maintenance required. Build a nice tight retaining box so they can't bounce around.... I don't know what you mean by that term "drop in". Can you explain that? At some point in any installation, DIY or OEM, weren't they "dropped in"?  LOL!!

Example: My coach batteries are installed in such a way that I can't even reach the hold downs to unscrew them with my fat, stubby little arms. Granted the alligator arms come in handy when it's time for someone to pick up a lunch check, but not for this.  If I managed to do that, I then have to remove the front battery cables, find a way to wrangle a 95 pound battery out of the compartment by myself, then take off the rear battery cables, wrestle THAT one out, open the caps, check the levels, and then reverse the process. I can't lift 95 pounds in that configuration. I can lift 180 on a weightlifting bar, but that is standing on my feet, with a nice wide base, using my legs.... So when I need my existing coach batteries serviced, I have to take the RV somewhere and pay somebody to do it. I know how. I just can't. And I can't stress this enough, I don't want to. That would take me 2 hours to try and do that simple task. I don't want to spend 2 hours doing that. Set 'em and forget 'em sounds much better to me.

This video is pretty well done. Upper charge voltage? I don't really know what you mean by that, but I can deduce that you may mean "When they battery is at 100%, stop charging it".  Isn't that what the charge controller does, control that? Shunt off any voltage beyond capacity? The video I linked here tests where they ran the batteries OUT to 0% remaining and it recharged to 100% the next day.

I had an old timer on another forum tell me how I MUST have 2 pairs of 6v golf cart batteries wired in series parallel because that's what HE has and it works so well for him. Well, I'm sure it does. I don't want to, and can't, lift extremely compact 95 pound cubes of lead. And I don't want to deal with battery acid. Lithium is my answer to that problem. 30 pounds, no acid. I may, at some point, even replace the coach batteries with lithium. For now, just the solar storage will be lithium.

So can you please elaborate on what "drop in lithium batteries" means?

"Drop in":  Direct replacement of lead acid batteries, no modifications to charging or discharging parameters.  "Just remove old lead acid batteries and "drop in" the lithium.

The upper charge voltage in these drop in batteries is higher than and exceeds what has been considered safe charging voltage voltage for LiFePO4 chemistry batteries.  Also the low voltage cutoff seems very low. 

When you discharge a lead acid battery to close to 0 capacity one time you just reduce the life of the battery.  Do that with lithium one time and you go buy new expensive batteries.

Will these batteries work just fine?  I don't know.  Just putting out what I have learned from research.  Could be my concerns are out of line.  We'll know better in 2-5 years as people start using them and reporting on how it works for them.

Quote

And they guarantee 5000 cycles.

A guarantee is only as good as the company behind it.  Will these folks be around in 2-4 years if the batteries fail?  Will they possibly  question if you abused the batteries and therefore voided the warranty?   I don't have the answers, just a thought.

I installed lithium batteries in my RV and love them.  I don't have a place or the extra weight capacity in my RV to put enough of the heavy lead acid batteries to match the capacity of my lithium.  130 pounds versus 500 pounds.  On our trip to Alaska last year the savings in not needing to stay at RV Parks at $40-$50/night paid for the lithium batteries. 

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4 hours ago, Al F said:

When you discharge a lead acid battery to close to 0 capacity one time you just reduce the life of the battery.  Do that with lithium one time and you go buy new expensive batteries.

 

That is interesting because the link I had in my reply tested that very thing. He ran a pair of 100 amp hour lithiums down to zero and they charged right back up the next day. I have also called 2 companies that make them and they said the same thing, that you can run them all the way out if conditions cause that and they will charge back up as soon as the sun starts hitting your solar panels. I spoke to GreenLife Battery and asked them these questions. I was told that if I set the charge controller to stop the charging at the threshold specified that I would have no issues with what you described.

Do you use yours as solar panel power storage or do you run your generator to charge them? I will leave my cabin batteries as is (2 Interstate series 27s) for the house 12v and these will be solar strictly for the TV,  the computers, the router, wifi repeater, and charging the phone, tablets, etc. so this is a whole new installation, not replacing the lead acid that are there now. I have done my energy audit homework and calculated every scenario and combination of devices that the solar will power, and it should be just fine. Being able to avoid those expensive parks is exactly what I had in mind! Reassuring to hear how well they worked for you and how much you saved.

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Since lithium batteries can be killed by overdischarging them, I recall that some installations utilize a battery management system that disconnects them from load if the voltage falls below a certain level.

I fly RC planes (different application, I know!!) extensively and a Low Voltage Cutoff is standard on planes with lithium batteries because they are so intolerant of low voltage. 

I wonder if the Battle Born Lithium Batteries might have this protection built into the case. I looked at their website but didn't find much technical information. 

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Yes Eddie it is very hard to comment on the drop ins as the companies have not been around long and we do not know, and they do not publish, just exactly how these batteries work. As AL and Mark say we can tell you with absolute certainty that taking a lithium battery down to Zero kills the lithium cell. We also know with exact certainty what the discharge curve looks like for these batteries and what the appropriate high and low cut out points are for charging. From that we know that the charging parameters that the drop in manufactures are giving customers are wrong. This is not a matter of opinion but physics and chemistry. We know how LiFePO4 cells react to charging and discharging and what things shorten their life or kill them.  SO, the question becomes are the manufacturers just pushing bad information or do they have some proprietary electronics that protects these batteries. Maybe they do but you will find many of us who have built our own packs and/or  followed Lithium for a few years to be very skeptical because the numbers don't seem to add up.   Obviously we hope these work out for everyone but the skepticism comes from the manufacturers lack of detail and high prices. 

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2 hours ago, mptjelgin said:

Since lithium batteries can be killed by overdischarging them, I recall that some installations utilize a battery management system that disconnects them from load if the voltage falls below a certain level.

Are these concepts as far as overcharging the same whether the recharge is coming from a generator or a solar panel? I ask because all of the reading and research I have done, as well as a conversation with local source who sells solar panels, tells me that the function of the charge controller is to shut off the current flow to the batteries when the charge reaches a predefined threshold. This is the part I am not getting. I mean, you can't overfill a cup if it has a float valve on it that t?urns off the water when the cup is full. Isn't the solar charge controller that float valve that doesn't let any more "water" into the battery

As far as the batteries themselves, if you guys are engineers and chemists and such, I defer to your experience, but I question why a company who gives a written warranty would deliberately tell customers something so blatantly wrong, particularly when I also add in testimony from end users. That being said, I wouldn't deliberately run my lithium batteries down to 0%, for the same reason I wouldn't go 6 months without food. I wouldn't recover from that any better than a battery down to 0, if the time lapse video testimony on RV Four Seasons youtube channel was somehow faked. 

Just curious, did you guys watch that video I linked to? If so, do you have an opinion to offer as to whether you believe it is real or was faked? I found that video quite enlightening because of the time lapse factor.

I love learning stuff!

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7 hours ago, eddie1261 said:

Are these concepts as far as overcharging the same whether the recharge is coming from a generator or a solar panel? I ask because all of the reading and research I have done, as well as a conversation with local source who sells solar panels, tells me that the function of the charge controller is to shut off the current flow to the batteries when the charge reaches a predefined threshold. This is the part I am not getting. I mean, you can't overfill a cup if it has a float valve on it that t?urns off the water when the cup is full. Isn't the solar charge controller that float valve that doesn't let any more "water" into the battery

As far as the batteries themselves, if you guys are engineers and chemists and such, I defer to your experience, but I question why a company who gives a written warranty would deliberately tell customers something so blatantly wrong, particularly when I also add in testimony from end users. That being said, I wouldn't deliberately run my lithium batteries down to 0%, for the same reason I wouldn't go 6 months without food. I wouldn't recover from that any better than a battery down to 0, if the time lapse video testimony on RV Four Seasons youtube channel was somehow faked. 

Just curious, did you guys watch that video I linked to? If so, do you have an opinion to offer as to whether you believe it is real or was faked? I found that video quite enlightening because of the time lapse factor.

I love learning stuff!

I'm not an engineer or a chemist, I don't believe others are either. 

Keep in mind none of us need to be engineers with backgrounds in tires, automotive engine/transmission design, brake design to know that a vehicle will not last long, if every time I started off, I floorboarded the accelerator, maxing the shift points on the transmission, until I get up to the speed I am going to drive at, then driving at that speed up to where I need to stop and slam on the brakes to close to the point of making the tires skid until I come to a stop.  

You do realize, that is what you are saying, that we need to be engineers in vehicles to provide the type of vehicle driving information in the paragraph above.

Just like due to our research over a few years we question the parameters provided by these new "drop in" lithium batteries. We don't have to be engineers to pass on information we have gathered from what we consider reliable sources. 

I suggest that since you seem to feel very comfortable in buying these batteries, you go ahead and buy them and see how they work.  The RV'ing world needs people to buy these batteries so we can get some real world feedback. 

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eddie1261,

In one of your replies, you said you really like the "install and forget" aspect of lithium batteries. 

Not monitoring the charge and discharge level of any batteries is kind of like saying I bought a vehicle and I don't need to monitor my fluid levels in the engine and transmission, or check the air pressure in my tires.   Even the engine starting batteries, need to be monitored from time to time.  Especially if the engine is not run for several weeks or months.  

You can not bother checking these things on your vehicle for a while, but sooner or later that will catch up with you. 

I'm not say you need to check your batteries 3 times a day.  However with a proper battery monitor mounted inside your RV that you can view just by glancing up on the wall, you can monitor your batteries very easily.

BTW,  with Lead Acid AGM batteries they are pretty much maintenance free, like the Lithium.  The are a lot heavier as you are well aware of.  Additionally lead acid has far less usable capacity for each square foot of space than Lithium.

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I try to read all I can about these batteries. My retirement a few years out and I am going to realize the fruits of y'all's pioneering work. Right now I believe electric car batteries are the ticket for us. This could all change in the next few years though. Thank you.

Edited by GlennWest

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8 hours ago, eddie1261 said:

Are these concepts as far as overcharging the same whether the recharge is coming from a generator or a solar panel? 

As far as the batteries themselves, if you guys are engineers and chemists and such, I defer to your experience, but I question why a company who gives a written warranty would deliberately tell customers something so blatantly wrong, particularly when I also add in testimony from end users. That being said, I wouldn't deliberately run my lithium batteries down to 0%, for the same reason I wouldn't go 6 months without food. I wouldn't recover from that any better than a battery down to 0, if the time lapse video testimony on RV Four Seasons youtube channel was somehow faked. 

Just curious, did you guys watch that video I linked to? If so, do you have an opinion to offer as to whether you believe it is real or was faked? I found that video quite enlightening because of the time lapse factor.

I love learning stuff!

Eddie-

My comments were about over-discharging lithium batteries and were in response to your comment about someone taking them down to zero and then charging them back up with no problems. You can't take a lithium battery down to zero volts without killing it. What I imagine is happening is that they are consuming the rated usable capacity of the battery, calling that "zero", and then recharging. That is fine as long as there is some control system or device to cut the battery off at a certain low voltage.

I did find a specification sheet for the Battle Born batteries that states they include a built-in battery management system (BMS) that guards against high and low voltage, high and low temperature, and automatically balances the cells. So that seems to be in order. 

I did watch both of the videos and don't think that they are faked. He has a pretty simple system with a couple of batteries and an inverter. I frankly don't think that he understands it very well or that he has presented much of a technical evaluation, but he is happy with it and that is fine. 

For instance, he shows his AIMS inverter/charger and also his old converter, and says that he got them both hooked up and charging the battery.  In that scenario if he is on the inverter (no shore power) the old charger will be taking the inverted 120 volts, and converting it to 12 volts as it tries to charge the battery. Using inverted power from the battery.  That only wastes power. These are the kinds of things that need to be understood and addressed. 

He also mentions that his old lead-acid Optima batteries were only good for 6 hours of inverter time with overnight furnace use, and that they took hours and hours to recharge off off of the generator. It sounds like those batteries were not performing correctly and that his charging setup was poor. So this isn't really an apples-to-apples comparison. 

Not knocking these Battle Born batteries at all. They may be great. But for $899 a pop, I'd want to be sure of exactly what they are and see more of a track record. One mistake could be very expensive. 

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Okay. Replies from 2 of the battery manufacturers verify what you guys are saying. While they run down  APPARENTLY to 0% in the videos, they have a built in battery management system that does not allow overcharging or completely depleting. So in those videos where the guy with the beard took them down until they showed 0%, his 0% was just the bottom point they can safely go to before the BMS kicks in and says "stop before you trash them". So the BMS prevents me from doing what you guys were correct in warning me about. Whatever  that discharge  threshold is before there is damage, that BMS stops the discharge right there.

That info came from both Battle Born and Green Life. Slightly different in how they worded the reply, but the same information.

That video you watched, and the info from NDNomad here, pretty much depicted how I intend to use them. I suppose others may have a bigger bank of these things and run their whole coach, but mine will be in addition to the 2 lead acid coach batteries that the generator charges and be 100% for solar use. I kind of view that as simplification. I have watched videos of people who know way more about electronics and electricity that I do who install all these crossfeeds and switches and fuses every 3 inches and all this stuff that is way outside my scope. Basically saying that my generator will never touch my lithiums and my solar panels will never touch my coach batteries. They won't even be in the same compartment, so they don't get any ideas about breeding and I end up with a bunch of half breed ankle biter D cells I have to raise.... hoping they get scholarships and end up in the NFL. Playing for the Chargers....

My plans are to spend almost all my time in New Mexico, Texas and Arizona, and while I am aware that the temps vary with elevation, it won't be anything close to where I grew up on the shores of Lake Erie, where we see -10 temps for 1-2 week stretches in the winter accompanying 26 inches of snow. I only mention that to say that I won't likely be using the furnace much. When it's cool I will go lower, when it's hot I will go higher. I do plan to have a home base RV Park so I can truly enjoy the freedom I have never had to just go and do when the mood hits me. No fitting things in around a job, no care about other people's schedules. If on some random Tuesday I think I want to see desert, I can do that.

I have been retired for over 4 years and have just realized that I never left the hamster wheel that is work life. No more 1pm meetings, no phone ringing all day because people can't remember their passwords or don't know how to remote in from their winter home in Florida, nobody standing at my desk with their laptop when I get back from lunch. No pressure, period. I'll figure it out here soon.

Someone apparently took offense because I inquired if some of the responses are from engineers or chemists. I am well aware that you don't have to be a chemist to understand any chemistry at all, or an electrician to know + from -. I was asking socially so I know who I am talking to. If I need advice on how to make rabbet or dado cuts, would I ask a carpenter, or an auto mechanic or a plumber? I like to know who is offering their input, having run into many people in my IT Tech life as well as on some RV forums and music forums who have the attitude of "THIS is the right way because THIS is what I do!" with no other credential other than it's how they do it. Those kind of people I tend to just ignore. If it works for them, great. Lift two pairs of 100 pound golf cart batteries if you like. I prefer 30 pound lithium, and it is worth the cost to me JUST for the weight loss. I have found that you don't learn new things by doing something the same way forever. (Get me started on the guy who uses a 12 year old digital audio workstation who told me not to use Pro Tools, the current music industry standard, because HE uses Reaper.) That was why I asked that question.

Edited by eddie1261

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Eddie---I did not see your updated post. Seems like sometimes I do not get notifications. Anyway, thanks for the info. That explains that. Keep us updated please. There is not a lot of feedback on the drop ins yet.

Noteven, Progressive Dynamics did, I expect they still do. When I looked at the charger they offered they did not have the parameters set at levels which I felt were appropriate for LiFePO4 batteries. Maybe they have changed that. Especially for those that build there own pack at this point I feel most comfortable with those chargers that allow the user to manually set the  levels.

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They do but if you have an inverter/charger why do you need a converter. I am not replacing mine, just having the inverter repaired. 

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They do but if you have an inverter/charger why do you need a converter. I am not replacing mine, just having the inverter repaired. 

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