SWharton Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 We have RVed for 40 years but rarely boondocked. We have taken a renewed interest in boondocking but have several questions after our first foray. Rig: We have a MH with an Onan 5000w generator. We currently have 4 deep cycle batteries which we plan to replace with AGM in the near future but need to understand battery usage better before we buy them. We are currently camping in a national park where we cannot run the generator overnight. Each morning our batteries have been very low(we don't think they are in good shape), 11.6v or lower. We bought a timer for the refrigerator and now turn it off overnight. We do turn it on for 30 minutes during the night to let it cycle and cool down again. This did not seem to help our battery usage at all, seems to have made it worse. Tonight we will not run it for the 30 minutes and see what the battery is like in the AM. We make sure we are fully charged before going to bed. Overnight we have the usual items turned on, charging phones, satellite stuff, 12v fan(on high), and of course the refrigerator. What should our expectations be regarding battery voltage in the AM with the refrigerator running and without. Does anyone know this info. We are trying to figure out "normal" which I know does not exist. I hope this makes sense to you and thanks for your responses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LindaH Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 4 hours ago, SWharton said: Overnight we have the usual items turned on, charging phones, satellite stuff, 12v fan(on high), and of course the refrigerator. What should our expectations be regarding battery voltage in the AM with the refrigerator running and without. Does anyone know this info. We are trying to figure out "normal" which I know does not exist. We pretty much exclusively boondock. We turn off our inverter when we go to bed, so we have nothing running that requires AC electricity such as charging phones, or our satellite receiver. We don't keep any fans running, either (we might keep the fan on over the bed if it's hot, but it would be on low, not high). We also do not keep the furnace on overnight (unless we're expecting single-digit temperatures, and then it's set at the lowest possible temperature...this doesn't happen often since we go south in the winter). We do keep our refrigerator on. Our batteries, at their lowest, are at 12.0 when we get up in the morning, but usually higher. We have solar to recharge the batteries during the day, but we do usually turn on the generator for 30 to 60 minutes in the morning to get a jump-start on the charging. LindaH 2014 Winnebago Aspect 27K 2011 Kia Soul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjstough Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 Do you have a residential refrigerator? If not, are you trying to run your absorption refrigerator on electric? Either of the those situations takes a lot of electricity. 2005 Winnebago Voyage 38J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWharton Posted September 21, 2017 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 Yes, we have a residential refrig. I just emailed Trojan and cannot believe the quick and knowledgeable response I received from them. I had answers to my questions in 5-10 minutes. We have concluded, which we kind of knew, that our batteries are in bad shape. We will be getting our AGM's in a couple weeks to get around all our problems and be able to boondock with confidence. We will turn off the inverter tonight andd see if that helps us. This has been a rough start to boondocking but with all your help we are resolving our issues. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjstough Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 From what I have read a residential refrigerator takes about 150-200 amp hours in a 24 hour period and with your current battery bank has about 200 amp hours usable, I can see why your batteries are low in the morning. Also, I doubt your batteries are fully charged at night, as even with a good three stage charger it would take several hours of generator time to fully charge the batteries. How are you measuring the state of charge of your batteries? 2005 Winnebago Voyage 38J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWharton Posted September 21, 2017 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 My main concern is overnight when I can't run the generator. I believe the problem now is the state of the batteries. Our inverter went out twice and dragged the batteries down to pretty much zero. 11.3 volts. Then, because the bank of batteries are not on a slide out tray(and I can't put one in) I was sloppy checking water since I need to remove the cables and pull each battery. Don't even suggest Flow-rite. I have spoken to them and they do not have anything to fit these batteries. This is why we are going to AGM, if I buy new flooded batteries I have no assurances that a Flow-rite system would fit them. I can't go 6 volt because there is not enough space. The only way I have to measure our battery charge is the Magnum, the solar and the generator display. They all are in sync with each other. Tonight we are going to turn off the inverter at night to see if that helps the batteries but my concern here is the temp in the refrigerator in the am. I will keep experimenting.................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWharton Posted September 22, 2017 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2017 Turning off the inverter helped a lot. We are inching our way to a solution. Concern about refrigerator temps though. May need to get an ice chest as a temporary fix. I'll see how the day goes with the generator going on and off. In another thread I was told about an possible option on the Magnum to turn off the inverter automatically when voltage is low. Research time again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noteven Posted September 22, 2017 Report Share Posted September 22, 2017 SWharton - would a "Danfoss compressor" type 12v fridge be a possible solution? "Are we there yet?" asked no motorcycle rider, ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWharton Posted September 22, 2017 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2017 I don't know what that is but we will not switch refrigerators, when plugged in we love it. The p[roblems seems to be boondocking and the batteries, not the refrigerator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat & Pete Posted September 22, 2017 Report Share Posted September 22, 2017 1 hour ago, SWharton said: I don't know what that is but we will not switch refrigerators, when plugged in we love it. The p[roblems seems to be boondocking and the batteries, not the refrigerator. But , if the fridge took less 'juice' , the boondocking and batteries likely wouldn't be a problem . So , maybe you have the cart in front of the horse ? But , maybe your cart is filled with carrots? And , how long will it be before your boondocking outweighs being 'plugged in' ? Goes around , comes around . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandsys Posted September 22, 2017 Report Share Posted September 22, 2017 If your fridge will stay cold overnight when no one is opening its door you might look to see if it is on a separate breaker or one shared by items you don't use during the night anyway. Turning off the breaker means not having to try to reset the same temperature in the fridge itself. Also, a full fridge requires less electricity than a nearly empty one; you might want to stick bottles of water in there to help fill it up. Linda Sand Blog: http://sandcastle.sandsys.org/ Former Rigs: Liesure Travel van, Winnebago View 24H, Winnebago Journey 34Y, Sportsmobile Sprinter conversion van Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat & Pete Posted September 22, 2017 Report Share Posted September 22, 2017 2 hours ago, sandsys said: If your fridge will stay cold overnight when no one is opening its door you might look to see if it is on a separate breaker or one shared by items you don't use during the night anyway. Turning off the breaker means not having to try to reset the same temperature in the fridge itself. Also, a full fridge requires less electricity than a nearly empty one; you might want to stick bottles of water in there to help fill it up. Linda Sand Or , stick those water bottles in the freezer for the day and transfer them to your fridge at night . You have to have something to do while out in the middle of nowhere , right ? Goes around , comes around . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al F Posted September 23, 2017 Report Share Posted September 23, 2017 As I am going to try to summarize your setup. Please update with additional information. -- You DO NOT have a battery monitor, such as a Trimetric. -- You have a residential fridge which consumes 100-150AH a day, not leaving you much for your day to day other activities. While I have read topics about residential refrigerators, it is cursory read. The 100-150AH per day is what I remember not an exact number. -- Your 400AH battery bank has at the most about 200AH usable capacity a day. For longest battery life 100AH usage is recommended. -- Additionally many 2000 watt inverters use about 2AH of batter just by being on and no 120V devices being used. That is 48AH a day coming out of your 200AH capacity. -- You mention "Satellite stuff". If that is a satellite TV receiver that thing is a energy hog. About 7-10amps of 12VDC through the inverter. My thoughts. -- Yes your batteries most likely need to be replaced, and because of the difficulty in monitoring the water level, AGM is a good choice. -- Boondocking and living off of your batteries, generator and/or solar is a hobby. I didn't come up this thought, but it makes sense. Hobby being: you know you battery usage, charging and overall condition. You become educated on batteries and their charging. If you install solar you research what to expect to expect from them and know the different ways the are connected (parallel/series) to the solar controller. You run your generator because you know how much energy you need to put back in the batteries. When you run your generator you understand how many AH's you will be putting back in the batteries. That is not just run the generator for an hour or two, or even overnight. -- You need to know precisely what your battery AH usage is every day. A battery monitor is a must for knowing your real usage. You may have something on (satellite stuff, maybe) that uses more AH's than you realized. -- One of things about lead acid batteries, including AGM, is they are most happy if they are charged to 100% capacity at least every 2-4 days. Consistently charging them to 90% reduces their capacity permanently. Charging to 100% requires running a generator for a long time. That is more like 6-12 hours, even with a 3 stage charger. Just running the generator for a couple of hours only brings you to 80-90% depending on how far down you discharged the batteries. 50% discharge typically requires more than 2 hours to get to 90%. -- There are several, very educational websites which have been posted on this forum, one of which is Jack Mayer's website. I have run out of time to post them tonight. We are traveling for the next 2-3 days. I'll plan on coming back and posting the websites when I can. Al & Sharon 2006 Winnebago Journey 36G 2020 Chevy Colorado Toad San Antonio, TX http://downtheroadaroundthebend.blogspot.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noteven Posted September 23, 2017 Report Share Posted September 23, 2017 12 hours ago, SWharton said: I don't know what that is but we will not switch refrigerators, when plugged in we love it. The p[roblems seems to be boondocking and the batteries, not the refrigerator. Ok "Are we there yet?" asked no motorcycle rider, ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al F Posted September 25, 2017 Report Share Posted September 25, 2017 Here are links to some websites with good info about batteries, battery charging, and power requirements when dry camping or boondocking. http://www.marxrv.com/12volt/12volt.htm http://www.marxrv.com/12volt/12volt.htm Also some excellent info from Trojan Batteries FAQ sheet: http://www.trojanbattery.com/tech-support/faq/ Battery Maintenance: http://www.trojanbattery.com/tech-support/battery-maintenance/ About battery life. The following link is included to show the relationship between discharging batteries 25% (75% full), 50% and 80%. As you can see this particular battery from Trojan can have a life of around 3500 discharge/charge cycles when only discharged about 25-30%, to to 50% discharge and the life drops to about 1700 (1/2 the life of the 25% discharge) and drops to about 1000 cycles if discharged to 80%. http://www.trojanbattery.com/solar-agm/ These life cycle numbers are pretty consistent for almost any deep cycle battery. Max life is at 25% discharge, 1/2 life at 50% and less than 1/3 life at 80% discharge. One important thing the chart does not show, is the effect of not charging the batteries to 100% at least every week, every 3-4 days if better. Not bringing the batteries to 100% tends to sulfate (I hope I got that term correct) the battery plates reducing their capacity. For the average RV'er who only boondocks several times a year for several days at a time the reduced life of the batteries is not that important. They should still get 3-5 years of battery life. Al & Sharon 2006 Winnebago Journey 36G 2020 Chevy Colorado Toad San Antonio, TX http://downtheroadaroundthebend.blogspot.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al F Posted September 25, 2017 Report Share Posted September 25, 2017 My intent is not to dissuade anyone from boondocking, but to emphasize the importance of understanding the operation of the 12V electrical systems and their deep cycle batteries. Al & Sharon 2006 Winnebago Journey 36G 2020 Chevy Colorado Toad San Antonio, TX http://downtheroadaroundthebend.blogspot.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al F Posted September 25, 2017 Report Share Posted September 25, 2017 SWarton: There is no reason why you can't boondock for several days with your residential refrigerator. However you really must have some way to accurately monitor how deeply your batteries are discharged and how many amp hours (AH) you put back in the batteries when you run your generator. The Trimetric monitor is excellent for this purpose. http://www.bogartengineering.com/products/trimetrics/ As long as you go to a place with electric hookups for at least 24 hours after boondocking that should recharge your batteries to 100%. Additionally you want to look at the owners manual for your charging system, probably the converter which came with your MH. If it is not a 3 stage (bulk, absorb and float) charger then you need to change to a 3 stage charger. Many inverters have a built in 3 stage charger. Such as inverters from Magnum: http://www.magnum-dimensions.com/product-inverter/2000w-12vdc-modified-sine-inverter-charger-me-series http://www.magnum-dimensions.com/product-inverter/2000w-12vdc-pure-sine-inverter-charger-0 Al & Sharon 2006 Winnebago Journey 36G 2020 Chevy Colorado Toad San Antonio, TX http://downtheroadaroundthebend.blogspot.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWharton Posted September 25, 2017 Author Report Share Posted September 25, 2017 I am running behind on all the notes and reading. We were caught in a mandatory evacuation in the Outer Banks and are temporarily in a cg. Tomorrow we will find ourselves a better campground and hopefully I can catch up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al F Posted September 25, 2017 Report Share Posted September 25, 2017 Wow! So sorry you got caught in a hurricane evacuation. September should have been a good time to visit the outer banks. Summer crowd over, and the temps should be a little cooler than July, August. You have lots of time before leaving for Alaska to work though your battery problems. Al & Sharon 2006 Winnebago Journey 36G 2020 Chevy Colorado Toad San Antonio, TX http://downtheroadaroundthebend.blogspot.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWharton Posted September 25, 2017 Author Report Share Posted September 25, 2017 This has been a trip to remember. First Harvey changed our plans, then Irma changed the new plans, then in Assateague Jose came whistling by and now Maria. We are heading west, hopefully, we won't have as many challenges.................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddie1261 Posted September 26, 2017 Report Share Posted September 26, 2017 You are waiting until NOW to head west? Knowing Harvey was coming, I would have headed west when the first raindrop hit the windshield. Then again, I'm a wimp, so..... I want ZERO part of that kind of chaos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWharton Posted September 26, 2017 Author Report Share Posted September 26, 2017 Harvey didn't impact us, nor did Irma just changed our plans. Jose was suppose to be further out to sea as was Maria, just a day a rain was forecast until they shifted closer inland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWharton Posted September 26, 2017 Author Report Share Posted September 26, 2017 We were talking about our problems last night(still have all the reading to do) and we are going to get the Magnum Battery Monitor and probably need a new remote. Since we have the Magnum system already we feel more comfortable staying with the same brand. We are heading to Livingston and I am contacting West Rv about installing the battery monitor for us. It looks simple enough to do except for the shunt. The remote will be a simple switch out it appears. At that point we will evaluate our batteries, if the batteries are no good(I don't see how they could be) we will run over to Sams Club in Conroe and get 4 AGM's from them and have West switch our batteries around(unless West could come close to Sams price) We could do this ourselves except for the weight of the batteries..Then we will run the cores back to Sams and get our money back. Comments? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al F Posted September 26, 2017 Report Share Posted September 26, 2017 Excellent way to go, getting a battery monitor. Starting with new AGM batteries will give you a set up that you know is good working order. Then monitoring your usage you will learn just how well you system is operating with the residential refrigerator while boondocking. Will you be getting this ME-BMK battery monitor? If you haven't downloaded the Owners Manual from the link above, it would good to download it and review the install instructions. It also has the compatibility info to be sure it will work with your inverter and remote. I glanced through the owners manual and the instructions appear to be excellent. Al & Sharon 2006 Winnebago Journey 36G 2020 Chevy Colorado Toad San Antonio, TX http://downtheroadaroundthebend.blogspot.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al F Posted September 26, 2017 Report Share Posted September 26, 2017 BTW, what model inverter do you have? Al & Sharon 2006 Winnebago Journey 36G 2020 Chevy Colorado Toad San Antonio, TX http://downtheroadaroundthebend.blogspot.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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