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Atwood water heater won't light


crazie_eddie

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Hi All

Hot water again! A friend came by with a tester and we discovered it is in fact a problem with either the board or the connector to the board. When he pushed up slightly on the connector, the heater fired right up! I'm going to reexamine the connection first, but a new board is probably in order with with winter on the way.

Thank you all for your help and guidance!

Pat

 

Pat in The Pearl - 2000 30' Lazy Daze

 

"Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most."

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Congrats Eddie and thanks for the feedback. Give a try to gently clean/polish up the boards flat copper looking contact strips like I mentioned before, and if that don't fix it or Toms good advice above regarding a possible bad solder joint (looks like you now obviously have POWER GETTING TO THE BOARD via the thermal and t stat we worried about previously) a new board may be in the works (Ive had good luck with Dinosaur replacement boards) , I try to carry a spare myself.  You're getting there fer sure.

 

 John T

Edited by oldjohnt
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I am also having problems with this same model water heater. Mine has an intermittent problem igniting. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, sometimes will light after several tries. It will light every time if I shove a clicker into the burner tube to use as a pilot and has a perfect flame once it's going. Sometimes it will relight on its own when it calls for another heating cycle. I have replaced the igniter hoping for a relatively inexpensive fix but it acts the same with the new igniter. I have checked the connections and cleaned the terminals on the control board as suggested here. Could the board be intermittently bad? I would think it either works or doesn't work. Any suggestions on what I could try from here? Thanks

Tom and Mare

The Breeze RV

https://thebreezerv.wordpress.com

2002 National Sea Breeze

2004 Harley Electra Glide Classic

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10 hours ago, Tcwndsr said:

Could the board be intermittently bad? I would think it either works or doesn't work. Any suggestions on what I could try from here? Thanks

 

 Sure, the board may be bad but that's like one of the more expensive fixes !!! Talk to Dinosaur Electronics if you can still talk to them about troubleshooting or one of their replacement units.

 FWIW Its been my experience that iffffffffffffff there's sufficient voltage getting TO the board via the switch and T stat and any limit switches and ifffffffffffffffff the boards flat ribbon connection is good n clean making good contact so the board gets sufficient voltage (Low voltage there can cause a problem) ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,and iffffffffffff the HV ignitor coil is good and throwing a good spark itself (test by unhooking wire to ceramic ignitor tip (if possible on your unit) and use a jumper wire with end 1/8 or so from metal to see if it is sparking),,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,BUT it lights intermittently:

 

 Possibilities are the ceramic ignitor tip itself  (may have small cracks or carbon traces) is bad and spark energy gets shorted. I see you replaced it (I assume the tip right?) so if its good and placed at the proper distance, check that its fairly critical  ????? it may be the cable to it or the HV ignitor coil

 The ceramic ignitor tip isn't located at the right distance or location

 Faulty HV ignitor cable

 Faulty board due to a solder break or crack or its electronics

 I have spent time on the phone with Dinosaur electronics (The President himself once and other times tech support) and I was surprised how bad low voltage or a resistive connection can cause problems.

I would take a good hard look at the ignitor tip and proper gap distance  and run any manual troubleshooting tips and insure the HV ignitor coil itself is throwing a good spark  and use an accurate volt meter to insure good board voltage 

 

NOTE Hot water heaters are NOT my cup o tea so I hope the other gents can add more possibilities and troubleshooting tips.. Once you have good voltage to the board and the HV coil and ignitor tip and its gap distance are all good, it may be the boards electronics or a bad solder joint or a crack BUT BEYOND THAT IM OUT TO LUNCH LOL

PS the fact it lights manually tells me the switch and T stat and any limits are good and the gas valve is opening, so I'm left with a board or HV ignitor coil or the tip or gap etc. 

PS I'm not sure if your heater and board and ignitor (separate or onboard the regular board???)  is configured or will even allow you to do the things I posted above ????????? if not I meant well lol

 

 Best I have to offer, see what the experts have to say

 

John T

 

Edited by oldjohnt
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11 hours ago, Tcwndsr said:

Could the board be intermittently bad? I would think it either works or doesn't work. Any suggestions on what I could try from here?

I am a repair person by trade although not RVs, I have been repairing them for more than 30 years for others as well as my own. While it is possible for a circuit board to work intermittently, it is quite rare for simple boards as this one is and in all of my experience, I have never seen that happen. What I have seen cause the exact symptoms that you are experiencing is the ignition probe assembly. I agree with JohnT that any of the components in one can cause this to happen, but you can only buy the ignition probe as an assembly that includes the probe, it's ceramic insulator, the high voltage lead, and all of the related components that could cause the problem. 

I can only offer you what I would do if I were working on your water heater, based upon actually having repaired many of them which experienced what you now describe. The first thing that I would do is to remove the present ignition probe assembly and its lead. Carefully clean all parts of it paying particular attention to the probe and ceramic insulator. If you can see even the smallest crack, replace it but if you feel it worth your time, clean it and set the gap to 1/4" as closely as you can. Next check the connector that the high voltage lead connects to and be sure that it is clean and well soldered. (not a common problem but possible) Look at the insulation of the high voltage lead and be sure that it is in good condition. Once those are done, reinstall the probe making sure that it is in close proximity to the propane jet and directly in the path of the gas from it After it is installed, test to see if things work again. 

Over the years it has been my experience that when this does solve the problem it is usually only temporary and for that reason, I seldom bother to go through that but just replace the probe. A new probe will cost you around $35 while a new circuit board will be $100+. I never change out the circuit board without also replacing the probe unless it is new because they have the highest failure rate of the electric parts in RV water heaters. When buying a new probe be sure to get the proper one as there are several versions of them over the Atwood models in use. If the probe does not solve your problem, only then would I buy a new ignition board and I would buy it from Dinosaur Electronics as I have used both theirs and the OEM ones and found the Dinosaur boards cost less, are guaranteed longer, and work as well or better. 

Good travelin !...............Kirk

Full-time 11+ years...... Now seasonal travelers.
Kirk & Pam's Great RV Adventure

            images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQqFswi_bvvojaMvanTWAI

 

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12 hours ago, Tcwndsr said:

 

Just to reinforce Kirk's EXCELLENT ADVICE, some time back I started a thread on here because my FURNACE wasn't lighting. I did some troubleshooting and found the HV ignitor coil itself was throwing a good HV spark (I used a little jumper cable)  so I cleaned and adjusted (I could NOT see any cracks or carbon traces)  the ignitor tip and gap and relocated it (the relocation seemed to really help the most) and she started working again, but shortly thereafter she stopped working again. Just to be prepared, I had gone to Flea Bay and purchased a whole new assembly, tip with ceramic insulator and new HV cable and installed it AND ITS WORKED PERFECT EVER SINCE. Moral of the story, an ignitor tip or the cable or insulator may look fine to the eye but still be bad. However I took it you ALREADY have a new ignitor ?????????? Hmmmmmmmm check the gap and location maybe and insure the HV coil itself is throwing a spark (maybe a jumper wire to 1/8 to metal if possible to jury rig such on your unit??)  They make that snap snap snap sound when firing, yours do that ??? but you can see the little sparky with your eye if she's firing. Were all trying our best to save you buying  a new board lol

 John T 

 

 

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Yes, I have installed a brand new igniter with same results as the old one. I will recheck the gap and position. One thing I have possibly noticed is the heater will work more normally on a rainy day or damp morning, leading me to think there is a poor connection somewhere that the moisture in the air improves. I tried some dielectric grease on the igniter connection but that didn't seem to make a difference. I don't think  using the grease on the board connection and plug would be a good idea. I also need to remove the ground screw and scrape down to bare metal. Running out of ideas but hate to buy a new board if that's not the problem.

I checked out the Dinosaur website but didn't see any Atwood parts listed, can someone provide a link.

Thanks

Tom and Mare

The Breeze RV

https://thebreezerv.wordpress.com

2002 National Sea Breeze

2004 Harley Electra Glide Classic

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45 minutes ago, Tcwndsr said:

checked out the Dinosaur website but didn't see any Atwood parts listed, can someone provide a link.

Dinosaur Electronics has two possible choices but I'm pretty sure that you need this one.

Quote

The UIB 64 Is designed to work in Atwood® AC/Gas water heaters that have both a 4 position & 6 position "edge" style or 10 "pin" style connector. 

 

Check the edge connectors on what you have now just to be sure.  If it isn't that one then you should use the universal circuit board.

Quote

Universal Ignitor Boards are for use in Furnaces, Refrigerators & Water Heaters. The UIB series boards come ready for use in Furnaces or a jumper on the board can be cut to make the board instant fire for use in Refrigerators or Water heaters.

I have used both of those boards in Atwood water heaters. I have never had one fail to work. It is important to follow the instructions and I also use the mounting kit and cover. 

Edited by Kirk Wood

Good travelin !...............Kirk

Full-time 11+ years...... Now seasonal travelers.
Kirk & Pam's Great RV Adventure

            images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQqFswi_bvvojaMvanTWAI

 

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"I tried some dielectric grease on the igniter connection but that didn't seem to make a difference."

That's NOT a place I would apply an insulating (dielectric) material between the mating surfaces

"I don't think  using the grease on the board connection and plug would be a good idea."

  I AGREE I would instead remove the flat ribbon connector and use a pencil eraser to lightly gently clean/buff/polish the flat copper looking strips on the board 

  "I also need to remove the ground screw and scrape down to bare metal"

 GOOD IDEA

 Have you tired a jumper wire to the boards HV Ignitor cable to 1/8 to metal to see if it sparks when the t stat calls for heat???? The ignitor tip cant fire unless the HV coil is sending it high voltage ?????????????

If the board connection is good and ignitor HV coil (on the board) is good and the ignitor tip is good and The board is getting sufficient voltage via the t stat and power input surE IT COULD BE THE BOARD

 

I have NEVER had a Dinosaur board go bad. CALL THEM WITH THE HEATERS MAKE MODEL AND SERIAL NUMBER and they can Tell you what board you need and also assist troubleshooting a board

 Some dealers have a unit that can test a board !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! See if you can find such a dealer

 I would try the above then call Dinosaur

John T 

 

 

. Running out of ideas but hate to buy a new board if that's not the problem.

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11 hours ago, Tcwndsr said:

I tried some dielectric grease on the igniter connection but that didn't seem to make a difference. I don't think  using the grease on the board connection and plug would be a good idea. I also need to remove the ground screw and scrape down to bare metal. Running out of ideas but hate to buy a new board if that's not the problem.

After having a bit more time to think on this, I agree with JohnT that dielectric grease is not a good idea there. It is an insulator and not a conductor and its use is mostly to keep moisture & air out of connectors and while cleaning the connection is good, that is all that I'd do in this situation. Making sure that the ground connection is good is also a good idea. 

What has crossed my mind is that we are assuming that the problem is in the relighting of the propane, but when this problem occurs, do you get the red light in the on/off switch? Since you didn't mention that it might be that isn't happening and that would mean that no attempt to relight was made. If you don't have the red light when it fails to relight, I would take a good close look at both the ECO (a pair of thermostats) and the thermal fuse.I have seen the ECO fail intermittently and have heard reports of that for the thermal fuse. Either one would prevent the water heater from relighting but not give you the red failure light.

                         911hGv9GkLL._AC_UL130_.jpg                             61DuS9HDzZL._AC_UL130_.jpg

Edited by Kirk Wood

Good travelin !...............Kirk

Full-time 11+ years...... Now seasonal travelers.
Kirk & Pam's Great RV Adventure

            images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQqFswi_bvvojaMvanTWAI

 

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 If you have trouble with a Atwood water heater, that will ignite, but then the flame goes out.

 

 It most likely the little 1/4" screw on top of the burner tube that holds the igniter assembly on to the burner tube. The board is not sensing flame because of it not having a ground for the sense probe.

 When there is a flame covering the igniter probe and the ground probe it send a signal to the power board that there is a flame. It does this by send a few milivolts to the power board.

 

 Loosen the screw and retighten it three times. And then try the water heater.

 

 

 Just a thought,.   Vern

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Yes, the lights on the switch are working as they should. The last thing I did was clean and tighten the ground and reseat the plug on the board, have had normal operation for two days in a row. Maybe I hit on the right combination somehow. I'll let you know if this continues.

Tom and Mare

The Breeze RV

https://thebreezerv.wordpress.com

2002 National Sea Breeze

2004 Harley Electra Glide Classic

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2 hours ago, Tcwndsr said:

The last thing I did was clean and tighten the ground and reseat the plug on the board, have had normal operation for two days in a row

Thanks for the feedback, TIME WILL TELL. Relative to your POSSIBLE FIX (poor or resistive connection) reminds me of a time I spoke to Dinosaur while I was troubleshooting whether a board was bad. I was asked what the voltage was at certain locations and I responded it looked okay and then was asked "How do you know that" to which I responded "my test light is bright" DID I GET AN EAR FULL LOL I was educated that I needed an accurate voltmeter as even a volt or two might be more critical then I imagined.  Sure one may think a wide voltage range (manuals may even indicate as such) should enable small low power electronics to still function, but according to Dinosaur when I spoke to them a loose or corroded or otherwise resistive connection (NOT just the board but anywhere in the heater circuit) can render the heater inoperable WELL DUH. That was the FIRST time I was told to polish the boards flat contact strips which in that particular situation DID cure the problem. That may or may not ever fix another board but it did that one.  If all your connections and grounds (I like that clean up of the ground perhaps that was the major cause ???) are now good but it fails again then its back to the drawing board, maybe try some or all of the suggestions above. The time may come when you're left with nothing other then a new board ??????

John T

Edited by oldjohnt
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I have read this entire thread through and I have a Precision Temp 500 tankless heater. The critical item that I see is that having a decent VOM (Volt/Ohm Meter) and knowing how to use it may be the most important tool to carry. I keep mine in an interior cabinet above the door and it is the first thing I grab if I think there may be any kind of electrical problem.

'12 Phaeton 36 QSH hauling '11 4 dr Jeep Wrangler Unlimited - Rubicon 4 down. Follow our travels Click here

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5 hours ago, xctraveler said:

The critical item that I see is that having a decent VOM (Volt/Ohm Meter) and knowing how to use it may be the most important tool to carry

AMEN TO THAT 

   However, being "old school" ever since I scrimped and saved back in the early sixties to buy my first SIMPSON 260 ANALOG VOM (Also have a 270 and an RCA WV 38A) I love and find it so helpful and reliable and use it to this day. Of course and as would be expected, however, since then 'Ive owned a variety of more expensive Digital meters and like them but for different uses and reasons perhaps. Heck I still have several vacuum tube radios (Zenith, Crosley, Grunow, Hammarlund, Hallicrafters, Dyna Kit Stereo 70, Knight Kit Star Roamer) and love them also.

 

 Just call me old, old fashion and nostalgic, see if I care lol  

 John T

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On 9/27/2017 at 8:18 AM, Tcwndsr said:

Maybe I hit on the right combination somehow. I'll let you know if this continues.

Sometimes you do win, but other times the win is only temporary so only time will tell. The positive thing is, look at all of the great troubleshooting experience you are getting!  :P

Good travelin !...............Kirk

Full-time 11+ years...... Now seasonal travelers.
Kirk & Pam's Great RV Adventure

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On 9/28/2017 at 6:29 PM, oldjohnt said:

AMEN TO THAT 

   However, being "old school" ever since I scrimped and saved back in the early sixties to buy my first SIMPSON 260 ANALOG VOM (Also have a 270 and an RCA WV 38A) I love and find it so helpful and reliable and use it to this day. Of course and as would be expected, however, since then 'Ive owned a variety of more expensive Digital meters and like them but for different uses and reasons perhaps. Heck I still have several vacuum tube radios (Zenith, Crosley, Grunow, Hammarlund, Hallicrafters, Dyna Kit Stereo 70, Knight Kit Star Roamer) and love them also.

 

 Just call me old, old fashion and nostalgic, see if I care lol  

 John T

We all have to keep some old stuff for memory's sake.  I admit to keeping old meters that no longer work just because I might get them to work again. That was before going full time. Now I only have one moderately good meter, just good enough to know if I have a problem or not. Can't even say what it is as it is on the coach which is 15 miles away. Day after tomorrow it will be with in easy reach as we resume life on the road.

'12 Phaeton 36 QSH hauling '11 4 dr Jeep Wrangler Unlimited - Rubicon 4 down. Follow our travels Click here

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9 hours ago, xctraveler said:

We all have to keep some old stuff for memory's sake

XC, I AGREE its hard to give up the meters I bought with my own hard earned money back in high school lol

HOWEVER when working on some older electrical devices (like say the generator on an old tractor) and even often on the RV,  I still pull out my old Simpson because with all the fluttering and unsteady voltage fluctuations "some" DIGITAL meters sort of loose their mind lol and don't display any steady reading, while my old  damped ANALOG meter reads fairly steady and accurate. I have digitals BUT I STILL LIKE MY OLD ANALOG SIMPSON. While it takes an actual true capacitor tester to measure and test those devices, I can still use my Simpson "kickback test" to provide at least some indication of their quality.

Nice chattin with you, get those old meter fixed up lol   

John T   Full time starting this Sunday (have half timed for 10 years)  the wife has the RV packed to the gills.................. She better not have tossed out my Simpson lol

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10 hours ago, xctraveler said:

Now I only have one moderately good meter, just good enough to know if I have a problem or not.

One of the good (and bad in some ways) things of going on the road without any home-base or storage space is that you do have to clean out some of the stuff that seems to just hang around for "one day."  Having cleaned out my parents home once they were gone, I suspect that it is mostly a good thing. I keep my faithful Fluke 77 which I have relied on for a long time as well as a cheap analog meter for minor things and for the times that I don't want true RMS readings. I also keep one of the 12V, icepick-like, test lights as well since they really help with dealing with those systems. 

I was long a fan of Simpson meters but gave up my last one when we hit the road but have transferred most of that loyalty to John Fluke nowadays. I think the most difficult thing for me to let go was my old Tecktronics Oscilloscope. 

Wait! We have sure wandered off of the original subject of Atwood water heaters so let's hope that subject has been dealt with. If it has not, someone just point us back in that direction!  :)

Edited by Kirk Wood

Good travelin !...............Kirk

Full-time 11+ years...... Now seasonal travelers.
Kirk & Pam's Great RV Adventure

            images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQqFswi_bvvojaMvanTWAI

 

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Well shoot, mine decided to quit lighting Friday...when you flip the little switch on the control panel the orange "ignition failure" light stays on...went outside and opened the compartment door and listened while the wife flipped the switch and nothing, no click or little spark or anything...checked the voltage and no juice coming in...couple of questions...is the "sparker" or lighter powered by 12 volt or 110? I checked all the 12 volt fuses and 110 breakers in the main box and all was good...I'm wondering if there isn't another fuse/breaker somewhere that I can't locate...what am I missing???




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15 minutes ago, coachmac9 said:

couple of questions...is the "sparker" or lighter powered by 12 volt or 110? I checked all the 12 volt fuses and 110 breakers in the main box and all was good

The circuit board that controls the water heater operates on 12V power and it then sends a much higher voltage to the ignition probe by way of the heavy lead you can see from the circuit board to the mounted probe.  The red light in your on/off switch tells me that you have 12V power to the circuit board as the switch gets its power from that board. If you had no 12v to the water heater it would not show any light at all.  Some water heaters also have a 120V heating element but it is controlled by a different switch from what you describe. 

21 minutes ago, coachmac9 said:

checked the voltage and no juice coming in..

Where did you check for this voltage?  There must be something since you got the warning light. 

23 minutes ago, coachmac9 said:

listened while the wife flipped the switch and nothing,

You can normally hear a snapping sound as the ignitor makes 3 attempts to light the propane gas before it shuts off. Not hearing that would indicate that it isn't making any spark which could mean any of several different problems.  I suggest that you start by downloading a copy of the service manual from Bryant RV website.

Good travelin !...............Kirk

Full-time 11+ years...... Now seasonal travelers.
Kirk & Pam's Great RV Adventure

            images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQqFswi_bvvojaMvanTWAI

 

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Thanks Kirk, I will print out the correct service manual and study it for a while...usually, as you mentioned there are very audible snaps that are easy to hear but there isn't any noise whatsoever now...I checked the voltage at the lead going out to the ignitor and there was nothing but that was expected since there was no "click" to hear or spark to see...I will do some more checking with the meter when I get home this afternoon and report back.




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12 hours ago, xctraveler said:

We all have to keep some old stuff for memory's sake

XC, I AGREE its hard to give up the meters I bought with my own hard earned money back in high school lol

HOWEVER when working on some older electrical devices (like say the generator on an old tractor) and even often on the RV,  I still pull out my old Simpson because with all the fluttering and unsteady voltage fluctuations "some" DIGITAL meters sort of loose their mind lol and don't display any steady reading, while my old  damped ANALOG meter reads fairly steady and accurate. I have digitals BUT I STILL LIKE MY OLD ANALOG SIMPSON. While it takes an actual true capacitor tester to measure and test those devices, I can still use my Simpson "kickback test" to provide at least some indication of their quality.

Nice chattin with you, get those old meter fixed up lol   

John T   Full time starting this Sunday (have half timed for 10 years)  the wife has the RV packed to the gills.................. She better not have tossed out my Simpson lol

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coachmac, as typical Kirk and I agree as I also view it since the red light comes on, power IS GETTING TO THE BOARD (could still be a resistive connection however). YES its powered by 12 VDC not 120 VAC

The patch is the Switch is turned ON,,,,,,,,,,,Then power gets to the board via a closed thermostat and any other limit and over heat thermal protection device,,,,,,,,,,,Then if alls well the gas solenoid valves opens (you can BOTH feel and hear its click),,,,,,,,,,,,,,Then the HV Ignitor coil on the board should start firing producing a snap snap snap sound when the ceramic encased Ignitor Tip throws a spark that's visible if you look near where gas flows out the tube. HOWEVER, if the gas valve isn't opening and the HV coil gonna isn't sparking and there's good voltage (cant be too low) to the board via the t stat and limit switches, the circuit board could be bad ????

 Just for the heck of it I would remove the flat ribbon board edge connector (sure even though the light is coming on) and gently clean buff polish the flat copper looking strips on the board and re attach.............Then watch and listen carefully (I lay my hand on the gas solenoid valve to feel if it energizes) when someone turns the heater ON................

 A) If the gas valve opens but she don't light, then I move on to troubleshoot if the boards HV coil is producing the HV (remove the HV cable on the coil and replace with a jumper wire off its output terminal to 1/4" to metal) and if so, then I move on to the ceramic ignitor tip (check for hairline cracks or carbon traces and its gap) to see if its sparking, but the HV CABLE from the coil to the ceramic ignitor tip could be bad ??? The last ceramic ignitor tip I bought came with the HV cable and tip as a unit.

B) If the gas valve never even opens and if there's good full voltage to the board via the t stat and limit switches, I suspect the gas valve,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, or its wiring or ground connection is bad,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, or else the circuit board is bad............... You might have all else off and jump 12 volts direct to the gas valve and see if it opens????? You can also unhook and check for continuity thru its coil.  If it opens when jumped manually that rules out a bad valve, so it must not be getting its power via the circuit boards proper functioning.

If you just keep in mind power gets to the board via the switch and t stat and limit switches,,, and then the gas valve has to open and the HV coil and ignitor tip work to produce the snap snap snap spark you may find the problem

I would also check all those metal ground connections and like the post above the tip assembly for a good ground (if the valve opens but no sparky)  

NOTE if you hear NOTHING (no gas valve opening and no HV firing) and the switch is on and there's sufficient voltage to and through the t stat and safety limits and the board is well connected (IE NO connector resistance) and there's  adequate voltage right there on the boards INPUT and all the grounds are good n tight COULD BE A BAD BOARD but over the years its more often been something else ???? Sure you need gas to the unit but still the valve should open and the ignitor start firing DUH..........Id be checking the t stat and any high temp safety cutouts for closure and good low resistances. 

Go by the manual not us lol Keep us posted what you find.

PS this troubleshooting ONLY works if it has a heater with a board and HV coil and HV cable and ignitor tip etc you can get to !!!!

John T

 

Edited by oldjohnt
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