How long can the plumbing in our TT take cold temps

[GaryMaryanne]

The DW and I are going to be starting our fulltime lifestyle here in a couple weeks. We are having and estate sate and putting the house up for sale on Sept 21. That is the day we are moving into our TT. We have been dreaming about the fulltime lifestyle but due to some things outside of our control we have the chance to do it now. We currently live in Western New York and plan on staying around here for as long as we can for doctors appointments and such. My question is we have a Jayco 245RLSW that we are starting out in and I am worried about freezing our water lines. If we keep the heat going in the trailer how long can we stay. I am thinking that temps overnight might drop into the high 20's but in the 50's during the day. Any help you guys with more experience have would be greatly appreciated 

[Chalkie]

I looked up that trailer and I do not see that it has a Cold Weather Package on it. Does it?

Our 5er has a cold weather package and we can, and have, occupied it in below freezing weather (once even in a blizzard). I am sure the package made a lot of difference since all the water pipes are in a sealed area that is heated, the water tanks have heating pads, etc. I do not entirely trust the heated water supply hoses and disconnect them when the temperature is going to be below freezing. 

I would examine how and where the water pipes are routed as that will you to make an informed decision.

If you are reasonably sure the pipes are routed in heated spaces you can help things a bit by any cabinets that have pipes in them open where possible. You should also be concerned about freezable items in outer wall cabinets and keep those doors open as well. 

My preferred method to safeguard the pipes, however, remains with winterizing or just not being located in an area where it can freeze. 

I know there are some on the forums here that intentionally winter camp (shudder) and I sure they will have much better advice than mine if they pipe in. 

[I'mdonewiththis forum]

I had a 2006 Dutchmen that had exposed tanks, but the water lines were in the body of the trailer (no cold weather package). I stayed in mine under the exact conditions you are describing. It got down to about 25* at night and up to about 45* during the day. I had no problem with anything freezing. There was enough thermal mass in the tanks to keep them thawed, but the only problem I had was keeping propane! I only ran the heat when I was there and even shut it off to sleep. I was going through a tank a week so keep that in mind.

[Pat & Pete]

4 hours ago, GaryMaryanne said:

The DW and I are going to be starting our fulltime lifestyle here in a couple weeks. We are having and estate sate and putting the house up for sale on Sept 21. That is the day we are moving into our TT. We have been dreaming about the fulltime lifestyle but due to some things outside of our control we have the chance to do it now. We currently live in Western New York and plan on staying around here for as long as we can for doctors appointments and such. My question is we have a Jayco 245RLSW that we are starting out in and I am worried about freezing our water lines. If we keep the heat going in the trailer how long can we stay. I am thinking that temps overnight might drop into the high 20's but in the 50's during the day. Any help you guys with more experience have would be greatly appreciated 

Does that mean forever or just a month or two ? 

[Kirk W]

4 hours ago, Chalkie said:

I would examine how and where the water pipes are routed as that will you to make an informed decision.

This, along with the location of your fresh water tank and the waste tanks are located will all play a part. If your plumbing and tanks are all in heated spaces, then you should be fine as long as you keep the RV comfortable to stay in. Fresh water tanks are usually inside, frequently under the bed and so are probably OK. Water lines may not all be in heated spaces or they may be in cupboards and other spaces that heat doesn't get to and so would require leaving the doors open. You may need to fill the freshwater tank and take your hose inside to prevent it from freezing and to protect the hydrant. Your waste tanks can freeze and even if you add antifreeze if exposed there odds are not good. If the temperatures never get below 20° as you suggest, it would take most of a day for the waste tanks to freeze, if you put some RV antifreeze into them first to protect the valves. If it always gets up to 50° or more in the daytime, you probably will have little or no problems. 

[GaryMaryanne]

4 hours ago, Chalkie said:

I looked up that trailer and I do not see that it has a Cold Weather Package on it. Does it?

Our 5er has a cold weather package and we can, and have, occupied it in below freezing weather (once even in a blizzard). I am sure the package made a lot of difference since all the water pipes are in a sealed area that is heated, the water tanks have heating pads, etc. I do not entirely trust the heated water supply hoses and disconnect them when the temperature is going to be below freezing. 

I would examine how and where the water pipes are routed as that will you to make an informed decision.

If you are reasonably sure the pipes are routed in heated spaces you can help things a bit by any cabinets that have pipes in them open where possible. You should also be concerned about freezable items in outer wall cabinets and keep those doors open as well. 

My preferred method to safeguard the pipes, however, remains with winterizing or just not being located in an area where it can freeze. 

I know there are some on the forums here that intentionally winter camp (shudder) and I sure they will have much better advice than mine if they pipe in. 

It does not have a cold weather package. We plan on leaving here the first week of November and was thinking of heading to Raccoon Valley in Tennessee until Christmas but we are thinking even that is going to be too cold for us. My biggest concern is to not do any damage to our trailer. I figured we would be using a lot of propane we are also going to get some electric heaters. 

We do have pipes in the exterior walls and the tanks are not heated. We are hopefully get another trailer soon but can't until we sell the house and get some bills paid off. 

[Pat & Pete]

27 minutes ago, GaryMaryanne said:

It does not have a cold weather package. We plan on leaving here the first week of November and was thinking of heading to Raccoon Valley in Tennessee until Christmas but we are thinking even that is going to be too cold for us. My biggest concern is to not do any damage to our trailer. I figured we would be using a lot of propane we are also going to get some electric heaters. 

We do have pipes in the exterior walls and the tanks are not heated. We are hopefully get another trailer soon but can't until we sell the house and get some bills paid off. 

Tennessee will freeze plenty before Christmas . It might even freeze on the gulf coast a time or two by then . 

We were on the Mississippi gulf coast for 3 years . I used heat tape and foam pipe insulation on our water feed hose . 

We volunteered in central Alabama for a couple Winters . Too cold there , too . DW counted 19 nights below freezing the first December . That's when I started using the hose heat tape and insulation . 

Last Winter we in Rockport , Texas . No heat tape required there .  

This Winter , we'll be in Southern Arizona . Hopefully the tape won't be need there either .

Edited September 5, 2017 by Pat & Pete

[rpsinc]

Heating your trailer should be considered with the following info.  RV furnaces are VERY inefficient.  In the order of ~35%.  So to the poster that is using LOTS of LP, and the OP try this.  Buy a sufficiently sized ceramic brick heater, which operate more on the order of +95% efficient.  No fan running because they dont have a fan.  They are ventless and many have oxygen depletion sensors for safety.  I always leave a window slightly open just in case though. Remember to consider that you dont have a cold weather package in your current trailer and so will need greater heating capacity.  But when you upgrade to a possibly larger trailer, then the heater should be sized sufficiently for your rig.  But get all the insulation you can when you buy another.  It will help for HOT and COLD.

 

I bought a Procom.

[Kirk W]

3 hours ago, rpsinc said:

 RV furnaces are VERY inefficient.  In the order of ~35%.  

May I ask the source of that figure? While I agree that they aren't very good, the figures that I have seen and those quoted by Mark Nemeth of Escapees, are more on the order of 60% efficient, which still isn't great. 

[ALLOY]

You'll want to check out:

- Low point drains. If the valves are outside the heated area of the trailer these will freeze and transfer cold up inside the trailer possibly freezing water lines in the trailer.

- Go under the trailer and see if you can feel any of the water lines through the belly wrap. Sometime the water lines are outside the (heated space) insulation

- Any inside water lines that are close to outside walls or inside the cabinets......pipe insulation, leaving a cabinet door open and removing access panels is an easy fix.

- If the trailer has alum framing the alum tube will transfer the cold through to the point that condensation and then ice may form on the inside.

- Shower faucet.....is it in an outside wall or an inside wall

- A way to shut and drain the water to the outside faucet so the rest of the water system can be used.

- Is the water line coming off the bottom of the tank is insulated.

- If you are on hook ups you'll want to invest in some 110v heat tape or leave a tap running.

- Grey/black tank valves in heated space

- Airflow (heat transfer) through the heater increases efficiency.......blocking air ducts to redirect warm air reduced the efficiency.

People use ductless propane heaters but when used with the proper window opening the heat gain is minimal while increasing the humidity.  The ($10) CO detectors in trailers are designed to alarm at the short (24hr) exposure level not the long term (WHIMIS) exposure level. 

Humidity/condensation is the enemy of any trailer or house.......keeping a vent open is a good way to reduce humidity but a dehumidifier is the best.

These are great heaters.....5 year warranty.....an anti-freeze setting and 600w allows 2 heaters (safely) on a single breaker.

http://www.caframolifestylesolutions.com/product/comfort-solutions/true-north/

 

[rpsinc]

12 hours ago, Kirk Wood said:

May I ask the source of that figure? While I agree that they aren't very good, the figures that I have seen and those quoted by Mark Nemeth of Escapees, are more on the order of 60% efficient, which still isn't great. 

That efficiency is based on actual use.  My Dad was living in an Alfa 3 slide 5er and when using the RV furnace he was using around 3X more propane than when I took him my ceramic brick heater.  He was struggling with leukemia at the time and so was pretty thin and frail and had the heater going most of the time in the winter.  Granted it was winter in So Cal, but the periods and conditions were pretty similar.

[Pat & Pete]

12 minutes ago, rpsinc said:

That efficiency is based on actual use.  My Dad was living in an Alfa 3 slide 5er and when using the RV furnace he was using around 3X more propane than when I took him my ceramic brick heater.  He was struggling with leukemia at the time and so was pretty thin and frail and had the heater going most of the time in the winter.  Granted it was winter in So Cal, but the periods and conditions were pretty similar.

Not absolutely sure , but , it seems you're squeezing oranges to get apple juice .

[rpsinc]

17 minutes ago, Pat & Pete said:

Not absolutely sure , but , it seems you're squeezing oranges to get apple juice .

Then let me add some conditions:  These results are not based on any technical or scientific procedures but rather based on a personal experience, which is what is shared here.  Your results will likely be different.  No oranges or apples were harmed in the process of this experience.  LOL

[Pat & Pete]

1 hour ago, rpsinc said:

Then let me add some conditions:  These results are not based on any technical or scientific procedures but rather based on a personal experience, which is what is shared here.  Your results will likely be different.  No oranges or apples were harmed in the process of this experience.  LOL

Ahh ... I relieved to hear that O-So Orange and Musselman Applesauce won't have to worry about any competition .  

Edited September 6, 2017 by Pat & Pete

[GaryMaryanne]

Thank you all for your prompt replies to my post. I am so glad we found the escapee club and forum. I have been a lurker here for the past few years but didn't have any experiences to share and that is going to be changing here soon and we can't wait we are so excited. Just need to get the last of the clean out done and we are out of here. 

 

[Kirk W]

7 hours ago, GaryMaryanne said:

Just need to get the last of the clean out done and we are out of here. 

I envy you just a little as we will never forget the first few weeks of fulltime living and one can only do a thing the first time, once so savor the experience. The fun is just beginning but the thrill will never be quite the same. And don't worry about the propane use of your furnace. I can't say what someone else may have experienced, but a furnace that is only 35% efficient in an RV is clearly one that has some serious problems. Engineering reports say that they are about 60% efficient with some of the newer models nearing 80%. Ours was about that but any time that you have electric power supplied or included, you can supplement by using electric heaters, but be sure that you use them safely. You may want to read this article from Escapee Magazine on using them.  One very important thing to keep in mind when using any type of heat in an RV is that they are not very well insulated and often have air leaks so stopping those can go a long way to help with heating or cooling. 

[Pat & Pete]

To add to Kirk's suggestions : 

We use electric heaters ONLY when we are awake . We unplug them every night before bed and set the furnace thermostat to about 60° for the night . 

DW worked insurance for 30+ YEARS and was familiar with claims for electric heater fires .

[Mike and Claudia]

On 9/5/2017 at 10:38 AM, GaryMaryanne said:

The DW and I are going to be starting our fulltime lifestyle here in a couple weeks. We are having and estate sate and putting the house up for sale on Sept 21. That is the day we are moving into our TT. We have been dreaming about the fulltime lifestyle but due to some things outside of our control we have the chance to do it now. We currently live in Western New York and plan on staying around here for as long as we can for doctors appointments and such. My question is we have a Jayco 245RLSW that we are starting out in and I am worried about freezing our water lines. If we keep the heat going in the trailer how long can we stay. I am thinking that temps overnight might drop into the high 20's but in the 50's during the day. Any help you guys with more experience have would be greatly appreciated 

I have a Dutch Star motor home.  It has a "Water Compartment" where all of the tanks, pump, some  of the lines, are together in one compartment together in the wingle compartment.  We have been in the Panhandle of Texas here the overnight temp would get down to -5 f .  I put a small ceramic heater in the compartment running 24/7 on low.  The only problem I had was the lines coming out of the hot water heater froze up.  The next night I put a 60 lamp (incondescent) below where the lines come out of the HWH and this solved THAT problem.  I made sure to close off the Gray & Black valves, draining the hoses-making sure to close off the "hole" where the hose came out.  I also used the water hose to fill up the water tank, then totally drained the hose.

I had no problems after putting the lamp by the HWH.

If you have water lines on the inside of the rig, they TOO can freeze if not insulated.

 

It was a pain having to go out in a blizzard to drain the tanks, but that was MUCH better than having everything freeze up.

NOTE:  The drain hose WILL freeze up if you try to leave it out, to drain the gray water.  Don't ask me how I know.   

 

 

[cwr]

Just to share my experience in our travel trailer in northern Virginia last winter... If you do prep work, like getting a good hose, getting heat tape, and insulating it, put some kind of skirting around the RV (we used foam insulation board from Lowes), put heat pads on the holding tanks, and have heat lamps on the ready for when the pipes might freeze, you can pull it off. We usually didn't have problems in freezing temperatures until the temps dipped down into the mid to low 20s. Then we had to deploy the heat lamps to make sure the pipes (which are run underneath the RV with no insulation) didn't freeze. Our TT basically has no insulation, and we made it work. But it did take a good bit of prep work. Also, keep a hair dryer handy in case you need to thaw something out.

[Kirk W]

7 hours ago, rm.w/aview said:

Would careful placement of an incandescent bulb be helpful behind the refrigerator as well?

When temperatures get well below freezing that is a good thing to do and I also restrict the amount of air flow through the refrigerator. It has to be able to cause the coolant to boil into a vapor for the refrigerator to keep things cold. 

[noteven]

Forced air heat source: think heating a rock up a with a hair dryer. Objects and materials are slow to warm up. 

- cheap systems to install.

- good for propane sales. 

- good for moving heat into spaces like water equipment compartment, deep cabinets full of stuff etc. with simple ducting.

- good for warming space on a cool morning but not heating up the unit uncomfortably as the day warms up. 

Radiant heating source: think heating a rock with the sun.  The objects in the direct path of the  radiant heat energy warm up. 

- good for cold weather heating where continous heat is needed. 

- heated materials in the unit will continue to radiate heat later... even when it is now 85F in the afternoon... oops...

Don't forget if you convert your living space from forced air rv furnace as main supply to some other more efficient source, that you need to somehow supply heat to the water & holding tank areas that used to be heated when your furnace ran...

I also carry an emergency stash of RV antifreeze in case of unexpected cold - so I can add to the tanks and winterize the water system if caught out for some reason... 

My 5th wheel has a seperate basement furnace that protects the tanks etc from freezing even if you are heating the human space by comfortable radiant heating ... lol just kidding no it doesn't that woulda added like, $500 to the cost of a $100,000 trailer OMG...

 

[freestoneangler]

On ‎9‎/‎5‎/‎2017 at 4:35 PM, GaryMaryanne said:

It does not have a cold weather package. We plan on leaving here the first week of November and was thinking of heading to Raccoon Valley in Tennessee until Christmas but we are thinking even that is going to be too cold for us. My biggest concern is to not do any damage to our trailer. I figured we would be using a lot of propane we are also going to get some electric heaters. 

We do have pipes in the exterior walls and the tanks are not heated. We are hopefully get another trailer soon but can't until we sell the house and get some bills paid off. 

In speaking with one of the most honest and informative RV sales people we'd ever come across, he told us that almost all RV's and mfg.'s are different in how they perform in cold weather.  Also that the "artic/cold weather packages" have no industry controls or standards by which performance is tested (this IMO would be something the RVIA should consider doing).  Certainly an enclosed and heated underbelly provides some of the best margin, but outside connection ports, hoses near sidewalls and in spaces where the warm air does not circulate are at risk.  Basically he was saying that, with the exception of the very high end full time designed coaches, when operating in temperatures below freezing YMMV. 

[TXiceman]

You need to face the facts that while you could live in the trailer in a NY winter, it will be miserable in my opinion.  It is a 3 season trailer meant for weekend and vacation use.  As people have discussed, trying to keep warm will use lots of propane and electricity.

You might consider skirting the trailer and putting an electric heater under there.  Also, use a remote reading thermometer to monitor the temperature in the undersides and also the water bay.  A heater water hose will help, but you will still need to insulate the water spigot to keep it from freezing.  You will need to keep the gray and black tanks closed and only dump when full otherwise the drain hose could freeze as well.

Best of luck in your adventures.

Ken

[sandsys]

On 9/5/2017 at 11:38 AM, GaryMaryanne said:

If we keep the heat going in the trailer how long can we stay. I am thinking that temps overnight might drop into the high 20's but in the 50's during the day. Any help you guys with more experience have would be greatly appreciated 

I have no experience with trailers with a plumbing system but in our motorhomes running the heat 24/7 our pipes were fine with the conditions you expect. You might have to wait a bit in the morning for things to thaw but you'll likely be fine then until awhile after sunset.

Linda

[LindaH]

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