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Dual Pane Windows - Worth the expense & wait time?


cwr

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We're full-timers looking to move out of our budget, entry-level rig into something that will be our long-term home. Specifically, we're interested in the Grand Design 312BHTS. We've found several good deals, but none of them have dual-pane windows. We're going to do our best to avoid cold weather, but will probably not fully succeed at complete avoidance, since we have ties to the mid-atlantic region and will be in the area somewhat regularly.

After living through last winter in northern Virginia in our budget rig, which is by no means even close to a proper 3-season camper, we want the best insulation we can get. We're thinking dual-pane windows are a must, but, curious if they're really worth it, because it would require us to special order a trailer rather than buying one off the lot.

In our current rig (Prowler), the construction is so poor that lots of air comes in through small gaps in the frames. If this is the case with Grand Designs, then dual pane windows won't really help all that much. Curious to hear real-world thoughts!

 

Thanks!

Charlie

Full-time nomadic, self-employed Xscapers!

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I had a Northwood built 5th wheel (also known for their quality and insulation factors) that I bought off the dealership lot with single pane windows but negotiated for them to order and install the thermal pane (dark tint, dual pane) so I was able to experience the same rig both without dual pane and width.  

I expected a difference......not just in the winter but also in the summer heat.  The difference was greater than I was expecting and something that I hadn't really thought about.....in those crowded RV parks it was much, much quieter inside!  I originally ordered the thermal pane windows just to help minimize the interior window condensation when it was cold out.  That all went away, also.

 

2017 Grand Design Momentum 376TH pulled by a 2014 Ford F-350 Lariat, FX-4, dually, longbed

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Yes, yes, yes.  We have never had a unit without them, but our motorhome has a windshield that is single pane glass (normal).  There is a huge difference in the amount of cold and condensation between the windshield and the dual pane windows.  We would never have one without them based on the differences we see and feel.

Don't forget to get the insulating pillows for your vent openings.  That helps a lot too.,

Pat DeJong

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Double pane are great for noise but they don't reduce condensation they move it to some where less visible...like window frames or the alum framing inside the walls/roof.

A dehumidifier is the best way to reduce condensation.

 

 

2011 Cameo 34SB3

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1 hour ago, J-T said:

...they don't reduce condensation they move it to some where less visible...

Not to be disrespectiful....

Um... I don't know who ever told you that or how you came to that conclusion, but they most absolutely DO help reduce condensation, help reduce cold and heat transfer/loss, reduce noise and help reduce energy consumption in a massive way. Not to mention prolonging the life of your heating and cooling appliances due to shorter durty cycles.

They do NOT, in any way "transfer" condensation to anywhere else in your rig. Areas of surface condensation are subject to the composition and insulation properties of the respective materials in your rig, humidity concentrations in various locations, temperature and amount of air flow.

A dehumidifier is always a good idea. Ventilation is also key (both in and out flow as appropriate for the climate and relative humidity). Running your aircon is another strategy. At other times.. raising the temperature. Curtain choices can impact condensation formation.

CWR - To answer your question directly. An abosolute YES. They are very much worth the cost and wait. If it is offered as an option or your wall construction is such that after-market double panes can be installed... especially since you are full-timing... you'll kick yourself for not waiting for doubles.

Now the cons!

With single or double pane, one thing often overlooked is the frame. Aluminum window frames kind of defeats the purpose you're trying to accomplish.

The main dual pane con, IMHO: Due to the constant rattle'n'shake, they ARE suseptible to having their seals "cracked". Meaning.. you "may" end up with condensation sandwiched in between the two panes and may have to deal with perpetually fogged windows until repaired.

In the past 5 years.. I've had 3 cracked seals. I "used" to repair them myself with very mixed results so lately I've always just have a shop take care of them. Prices ranged between $150-$200 per window, but I'm sure that varies. Mine are all fairly mid-to-smaller. 

To me, that is just the "cost of doing business". Repairs are going to cost a bit, but they are fairly painless and overall you'll still be ahead of the game in the energy savings... not to mention... not having to combat condensation as aggresively on a day-to-day basis, worry as much about mold or mildew growth, deal with those unexpected mornings with damp sheets/fabrics... other linens in the linen closet suprises, etc.

For anything more than an occassional weekend get-a-way rig I would never consider purchasing an RV that didn't have double panes, have a factory option for them, or at the very least, have wall construction suitable to have them installed after-market (such was the case with my current rig).

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They are worth the wait.  Our very first rig, 1997 Carriage did not have dual pane windows- may not have been available then-, but we stayed in the exact same site in that rig as we did the 2009 Carrilite we had later.  The dual pane rig was quieter and cooler.  Less heat transfer thru the windows.

Alie & Jim + 8 paws

2017 DRV Memphis 

BART- 1998 Volvo 610

Lil'ole 6cyl Cummins

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Hi Everyone,

How can you tell if your rig has thermo-pane windows ? The windows in my trailer are made by Hehr.

Al

2012 Volvo VNL 630 w/ I-Shift; D13 engine; " Veeger "
  Redwood, model 3401R ; 5th Wheel Trailer, " Dead Wood "
    2006 Smart Car " Killer Frog "
 

 

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9 minutes ago, alan0043 said:

How can you tell if your rig has thermo-pane windows ?

"Thermopane" is a tradmarked (patented) name owned by LOF (Libbey, O[I forget] and Ford). Thermo-Pane is just a marketing term for double pane windows. Same difference. 

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Thanks to all for the great replies; looks like we'll be ordering dual pane windows!

7 hours ago, Yarome said:

The main dual pane con, IMHO: Due to the constant rattle'n'shake, they ARE suseptible to having their seals "cracked". Meaning.. you "may" end up with condensation sandwiched in between the two panes and may have to deal with perpetually fogged windows until repaired.

 

Where do you have to go to have them repaired? RV dealer, or are there "window shops" out there that can do it?

Charlie

Full-time nomadic, self-employed Xscapers!

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14 hours ago, cwr said:

If this is the case with Grand Designs, then dual pane windows won't really help all that much. Curious to hear real-world thoughts!

I have owned several RVs over the past 35 years and I would never consider a fulltime RV that did not have dual pane windows. They not only make it easier to heat the RV but the same is true for cooling it. The condensation issue is far less with dual pane windows because of the lower heat loss/gain. 

8 hours ago, J-T said:

Double pane are great for noise but they don't reduce condensation they move it to some where less visible...like window frames or the alum framing inside the walls/roof.

This isn't accurate, although that doesn't prevent the window frames from collecting condensation, especially if they are made of aluminum and do not have a break to prevent heat loss. Some manufacturers do make frames with an insulating layer to prevent this, but even if they do not, it is much less surface to deal with than single pane. The windows do not eliminate the humidity issue but do make it less problem to deal with. Nothing will prevent high humidity but there are ways to deal with that, which is a whole other subject.

1 hour ago, alan0043 said:

How can you tell if your rig has thermo-pane windows ? The windows in my trailer are made by Hehr.

Hehr is one of the suppliers of dual pane windows but to know for sure you simply put something against the outside of the window and then touch something to that same spot inside and if you have a gap that is greater than the thickness of the glass, you have dual pane windows. That space is what makes the heat transfer barrier. 

Good travelin !...............Kirk

Full-time 11+ years...... Now seasonal travelers.
Kirk & Pam's Great RV Adventure

            images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQqFswi_bvvojaMvanTWAI

 

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In one of my past lives I got to deal with mold around windows with sealed units but alum frames that were not thermally broken.  I suspect the issue is worse in RVs that are not air sealed with alum wall/roof framing. 

Double glazing misconception

A common misconception is that double-glazed windows fix moisture issues since there is a reduction in condensation. However, all double glazing does is raise the temperature of the glass in contact with the indoor air.

This, in effect, just masks indoor moisture issues and does nothing to help its removal.

http://www.buildmagazine.org.nz/articles/show/combating-internal-moisture/

2011 Cameo 34SB3

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2 hours ago, cwr said:

Where do you have to go to have them repaired? RV dealer, or are there "window shops" out there that can do it?

I would imagine some RV dealers do it, but it's more likely that they "have someone that comes in and does it" for them. Many are likely a bit more expensive and much slower on their turn-around, but I'm just guessing. I've never tried a dealer.

I prefer glass shops. There are even shops around that actually specilize in RV window replacements/repair (along with other services) and most also have mobile services. Ie., Remove the windows on location, take them into their shop for repair and then then return to replace them. Others, I'm sure, would be better qualified to comment on how those run and the fee structures.

I don't do my own window repairs myself anymore, but I do pop my windows, drive them in to the glass shop for repair and then remount them myself. It's good to ask exactly how they plan to fix the issue. Some shops try to use specialized technics to clean, dry out any moisture, pressurize and reseal the panes. I say.. "mehhhh..."

It costs a little more, but I prefer them to completely seperate the panes, thoroughly clean all surfaces, remove ALL of the old seal and then re-do them "from scratch" I guess you would say. It's no fun forking out $75 for a "quickie" repair and have a different location in the remaining old seal go out on you 2 months later. I learned my lesson. ;)

Now I just pony up the $150-$200~ish bucks a pop and chalk it up to "reqularly required maintanence".

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I believe RV dealers are more likely to replace windows rather than repair them.  We used Suncoast Designers in FL to repair our fogged dual pane windows.      Greg

http://suncoastdesigners.com/

Google will find more....  www.rvfogdr.com      www.motionwindows.com    

 

 

Greg & Judy Bahnmiller
Class of 2007
2014 F350
2007 HitchHiker Champagne

Both sold 2/19, settled in Foley, AL after 12 years on the road

http://bahnmilleradventure.blogspot.com/

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5 hours ago, Big Greg said:

I believe RV dealers are more likely to replace windows rather than repair them. 

That was our experience as well, but a few minutes on the internet found these companies 

RV Glass Repair              RV Fog Pros         Motion Windows            Dave Root RV Glass

 

Good travelin !...............Kirk

Full-time 11+ years...... Now seasonal travelers.
Kirk & Pam's Great RV Adventure

            images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQqFswi_bvvojaMvanTWAI

 

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I think that the reason the window seals go is the constant shaking and bumping and grinding that trailers go through. My motorhome with its air ride does not experience these forces nearly as much and It has never had a seal go in any of the windows. I dont know why the rv manufacturers dont put shocks on the trailers and fifth wheels,  this would provide a much smoother ride for them.

<p>....JIM and LINDA......2001 American Eagle 40 '.towing a GMC Sierra 1500 4X4 with RZR in the rear. 1999 JEEP Cherokee that we tow as well.

IT IS A CONTENTED MAN WHO CAN APPRECIATE THE SCENERY ALONG A DETOUR.

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I think the dual pane seal compramise isn't near as much as it was ten or fifteen years ago.  I never had any problems in my Fox (built by Northwood) and as far as I know, the current owner hasn't had any issues.

J-T the article that you quote regarding condensation and moisture is regarding homes and buildings and not RVs.  RVs aren't built to the same standard and insulation (air tight) rating that homes are built.  I've been a Service Manager in the apt. industry for 45 yrs. and have a lot of experience in apts. of all ages.  RVs have much more air flowing through, even when it's closed up just by the nature of their construction and so with dual pane windows you don't have near the moisture issue on the inside, that many older homes and apts. do.

We have been building apts. that now meet LEED standards for 24 hr. a day fresh air and that's standard has to be met in every room in the apt. even the bathrooms that do not have windows!  My current project, Broadstone Corsair, is the only "Gold" LEED certified apartment community in San Diego County......google it and you'll be surprised at the difference in modern construction methods.  Still, a different bird from RVs and their construction.  By the way, you can monitor your humidity inside your RV very easily with hydrometers like these.....  https://www.walmart.com/ip/2-pack-ThermoPro-TP50-Digital-LCD-Thermometer-Hygrometer-Humidity-Meter-Indoor-Temperature-Monitor/585327296?wmlspartner=wlpa&selectedSellerId=4063&adid=22222222227076295044&wmlspartner=wmtlabs&wl0=&wl1=g&wl2=c&wl3=189791507236&wl4=aud-310687322322:pla-294753519050&wl5=9061197&wl6=&wl7=&wl8=&wl9=pla&wl10=113847074&wl11=online&wl12=585327296&wl13=&veh=sem

2017 Grand Design Momentum 376TH pulled by a 2014 Ford F-350 Lariat, FX-4, dually, longbed

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3 hours ago, JCZ said:

I think the dual pane seal compramise isn't near as much as it was ten or fifteen years ago.  I never had any problems in my Fox (built by Northwood) and as far as I know, the current owner hasn't had any issues.

J-T the article that you quote regarding condensation and moisture is regarding homes and buildings and not RVs.  RVs aren't built to the same standard and insulation (air tight) rating that homes are built.  I've been a Service Manager in the apt. industry for 45 yrs. and have a lot of experience in apts. of all ages.  RVs have much more air flowing through, even when it's closed up just by the nature of their construction and so with dual pane windows you don't have near the moisture issue on the inside, that many older homes and apts. do.

We have been building apts. that now meet LEED standards for 24 hr. a day fresh air and that's standard has to be met in every room in the apt. even the bathrooms that do not have windows!  My current project, Broadstone Corsair, is the only "Gold" LEED certified apartment community in San Diego County......google it and you'll be surprised at the difference in modern construction methods.  Still, a different bird from RVs and their construction.  By the way, you can monitor your humidity inside your RV very easily with hydrometers like these.....  https://www.walmart.com/ip/2-pack-ThermoPro-TP50-Digital-LCD-Thermometer-Hygrometer-Humidity-Meter-Indoor-Temperature-Monitor/585327296?wmlspartner=wlpa&selectedSellerId=4063&adid=22222222227076295044&wmlspartner=wmtlabs&wl0=&wl1=g&wl2=c&wl3=189791507236&wl4=aud-310687322322:pla-294753519050&wl5=9061197&wl6=&wl7=&wl8=&wl9=pla&wl10=113847074&wl11=online&wl12=585327296&wl13=&veh=sem

 

Don't mean to be rude but if RVs had as much ventilation as we'd like there wouldn't be a need to open a roof vent to reduce  condensation. 

The moisture in an RV comes from the people 1.5quarts per person per day. That is without cooking, showers, washing.

RVs are worse than any building new or old.  There is no vapor barrier so moisture enters the walls/roof where in cold weather the dew point (condensation) is.  Since we've sealed and caulked the outside the only way for the moisture to escape is back through the inside.....where the moisture is coming from.

Sealed units are a good idea but spend some $$ on a dehumidifier as well.

P.S. For those people that have trailers made with XPS foam rip up everything I've said.

 

 

 

2011 Cameo 34SB3

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5 hours ago, J-T said:

................... if RVs had as much ventilation as we'd like there wouldn't be a need to open a roof vent to reduce  condensation. 

The moisture in an RV comes from the people 1.5quarts per person per day. That is without cooking, showers, washing.

1

Keep in mind that living in an RV puts just as much moisture into a very small volume of air as does living in a stick house. We want our RV's to be well insulated and tight for outside air penetration in order to make it easy to heat or cool, yet fight the problem of humidity. I don't know of any means to have things both ways. 

We did find that in cold weather it would help a great deal to use the stove exhaust fan while cooking and the power vent in the bathroom when showering, but both of them mean more need for heating. 

Good travelin !...............Kirk

Full-time 11+ years...... Now seasonal travelers.
Kirk & Pam's Great RV Adventure

            images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQqFswi_bvvojaMvanTWAI

 

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Warmer air holds more moisture.
In a small camper such as our TC, it's easier to heat the air and then evacuate it with vent fans.

When taking showers or boiling water in cold weather I will turn on the Furnace for a short time - toasty warm.
Then with open vents I will turn on the exhaust fans.  It's a small additional cost for propane because the camper is so small. 

Single pane windows still got condensation though.

 

 

Lance-white-sands-500.jpg

~Rich

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We have used RV Fog Pros just north of Dallas/Fort Worth in Grapevine, TX. A+ service.  Two windows fixed in our Winnebago, excellent job.  We full timed in our Okanagan 33 foot fiver for three years, had high quality double-glazed windows.  The Winnebago not so much, but still would not be without double-glazed windows.

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1 hour ago, GlennWest said:

Have to ask, If you always had, how do you know they make a difference. Makes sense it would but unless someone has upgraded to them on same rv, one has nothing to compare to

We have dual pane windows in our Monaco . The door window and windshield are single pane . 

There is an obvious difference between the two ,in more ways than one . ;)  

Goes around , comes around .

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