rbertalotto

IT'S A MIRACLE! AC on one EU2000i

37 posts in this topic

I have a Forest River 19RR with a 13.5 AC unit. I want to be able to run the AC on one Honda EU2000i generator in ECO mode.

Currently, when the temperature is above 85 degrees, it takes two EU2000 generators running with ECO Mode off to get them running. Once running I can switch to ECO mode but when the compressor cycles, it trips the low voltage shut off on my Progressive Industries EMS. 

https://progressiveindustries.myshopify.com/products/ems-hw30c-pid

IMG_2364-vi.jpg

Running with two generators and  ECO off is noisy and uses more fuel. Got to be a better way...

First thing I did was install a aftermarket start capacitor.

IMG_2367-vi.jpg

I did this installation when the temperature was 60 degrees and it would start the AC on one generator, but not in ECO mode. I could run the AC in ECO mode with both generators. But once the temperature got above 85 degrees, see above!

Research led me to a small company in Allentown NJ (Not PA). They make a  device that looks at a few different parameters of your electricity draw and adjusts with some kind of magic and supposedly you can run an AC unit like I have on one 2000 watt generator.

https://www.microair.net/collections/easystart-soft-starters 

I happen to be going down to Cape May NJ this past weekend and would be going right through Allentown NJ. I called them and asked if I could stop by and pick up the device I needed. I mentioned I'm a member of the Forest River Forum and they offered me a $40 discount!
The "factory" is a very small building in a beautiful farming area of NJ. A very nice lady took care of me and I was on my way.

Once home I took the cover off the AC. Removed the start capacitor and installed the Easy Start. Took all of 20 minutes! Four wires and you are done!

IMG_2361-vi.jpg

I mounted the Easy Start to the front of the AC unit , under the cover.

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Buttoned it all up, and ran a test after starting the AC five times on shore power as the instructions tell you. You need the Easy Start and the AC unit to understand each other before you go to generator power

IMG_2360-vi.jpg

Temperature was 86 degrees during the tests. The generator was in ECO mode throughout the test.

IMG_2362-vi.jpg

I let it run for over two hours to be sure the AC could cycle while the generator was in ECO mode.

AMAZING! It works! Nice , quiet, one generator in ECO mode and a nice cool trailer.

Now I ask, why don't they install these units in the AC from the factory. For under $300, you are saving your ears, your neighbors ears and your second generator!

Highly Recommended!

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did you get the 3 ton model, and I assume you have to make sure you do not run other 120 volt items in the trailer while the compressor is running???

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Yes, the 3 ton model.....

 

I'm running the Air Conditioner and the AC to DC converter with zero issues right now. It's been running for over two hours.

If the compressor is not running, I can run the Microwave also. But if compressor tries to start with MW on, the Progressive Industries will sense low voltage and disconnect. No big deal, I almost never use the MW and if I do, I'll shut off AC for the 2 or 3 minutes the MW heats up something.

I can run TV, lights, cell phone chargers, WeBOOST and WiFi Booster with AC compressor running with no problems.

 

Temp is 85 degrees with high humidity and I'm 25' above sea level.

Edited by rbertalotto

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with my progressive dynamics I had to put a plug on the generator with the neutral and ground connected together, did you have to do that. I have the portable 50 amp one.

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On ‎8‎/‎2‎/‎2017 at 4:58 PM, Ed ke6bnl said:

with my progressive dynamics I had to put a plug on the generator with the neutral and ground connected together,

   Ed, I have a PDF file showing which Generators have Floating Neutrals and which have Bonded (there are reasons for both), but I cant find the URL website link. If I find it I will post it. Rigging up a plug with N and G bonded together is a cheap simple easy fix if you have a floating Generator you want to convert over to a Bonded. For my RV which has the standard panelboard with separate and isolated Neutral and Ground Busses, I prefer the genny be configured as a Separately Derived Source with a Bonded Neutral.

 

 John  T

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Quote

with my progressive dynamics I had to put a plug on the generator with the neutral and ground connected together, did you have to do that.

Yes, I made up a bonding plug.

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51 minutes ago, rbertalotto said:

Yes, I made up a bonding plug.

Could you post a pic of your bonding connection?

thanks

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Installed the MicroAir EasyStart 364 in our 13.5K Dometic AC. Works fine with eco mode turned off. Have not tried it in the Eco mode on yet with a 2017 EU2000i.

Sounds like I need a neutral/ground plug, too?

We don’t have an on board voltage protection device that would trip when a gen-set is used without a neutral/ground plug. Only use a portable protection device when plugging into shore power, not the gen-set.

http://noshockzone.org/generator-ground-neutral-bonding/

 

Edited by rideandfly

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3 hours ago, rideandfly said:

Installed the MicroAir EasyStart 364 in our 13.5K Dometic AC. Works fine with eco mode turned off. Have not tried it in the Eco mode on yet with a 2017 EU2000i.

Sounds like I need a neutral/ground plug, too?

We don’t have an on board voltage protection device that would trip when a gen-set is used without a neutral/ground plug. Only use a portable protection device when plugging into shore power, not the gen-set.

http://noshockzone.org/generator-ground-neutral-bonding/

 

Carefully review the document at the site below.  I don't believe it's safe to bond at the generator unless you have a GFCI.  I don't think your generator has GFCI protection and if you don't have something like  the Progressive Ind. unit monitoring the generator you may create an unsafe electrical system.

http://www.oshaprofessor.com/Portable Generators and OSHA Construction Standards 3-05.pdf

 

Edited by Ron

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10 hours ago, Ron said:

Carefully review the document at the site below.  I don't believe it's safe to bond at the generator unless you have a GFCI.  I don't think your generator has GFCI protection and if you don't have something like  the Progressive Ind. unit monitoring the generator you may create an unsafe electrical system.

http://www.oshaprofessor.com/Portable Generators and OSHA Construction Standards 3-05.pdf

 

Ron,

Will study this document and regulations.

Thanks,

Bill

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10 hours ago, Ron said:

I don't think your generator has GFCI protection

Per the 2011 code for generators that are 15KW or less... they are required to be GFCI compliant (often referred to as "circuit protection" and not clearly stated as "GFCI") on the inverted outlets, although, a great majority of inverter generators were doing it long before it was a legal requirement.

That's my understanding at least.

Edited by Yarome

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the reason I made a bonding plug for my generator was for 2 reasons, one the progressive dynamics would not let the generator run the trailer with out it. and 2 progressive dynamics told me how to do it and what to do to have the gen work with the PD controller. I think they know what they are talking about.

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We have a Progressive Dynamics 4045 convertor, but no on board surge protector (it's an option), use a portable circuit tester before connecting to shore power. Connect the EU2000i directly to the shore power inlet wired directly to the PD4045. The progressive tech folks have been very helpful with my past questions. Did not even know about the Floated Neutral and Bonding Plug until yesterday when mentioned on the Oliver forum. Found an informative discussion here with an internet search and joined this forum yesterday.

Bill

Oliver TT

 

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54 minutes ago, Ed ke6bnl said:

progressive dynamics told me how to do it

Am I correct that what they had you do was to make up a jumper cord that ties the ground and neutral leads together, between the mail for the generator and the femail for your EMS?

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8 minutes ago, Kirk Wood said:

Am I correct that what they had you do was to make up a jumper cord that ties the ground and neutral leads together, between the mail for the generator and the femail for your EMS?

what they had me do, is to take a male plug and jump the neutral with the ground and plug that into one of the 120v outlets of the generator.

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I have a Yamaha EF3000ISEB purchased new in July 2008 and a Progressive Ind. EMS-HW30 purchased new in May 2009.  At the time I purchased the EMS I was using the same model Generator purchased in Aug. 2004.  The EMS manual did not discuss the bonding issue.  After I installed it I noticed it did not function when using the generator.  I called Progressive and they told me this was expected because of the open bond and they felt that protecting the output of a generator was not necessary.  They did not suggest anything about getting around this by adding a bond at the generator.  In fact the "warnings" section of the manual would suggest they specifically did not think the system should be bonded.

598617ff795fc_EMSmanualWarning.jpg.f0e413e99d45760e6979263fd84235c2.jpg

 I later read about RVers doing this to make their Prog. EMS function with their generator.  I've never done this but I might do it in the future if I get better information about my particular generator and EMS.  Companies often make design changes over the life of a product while keeping the same model numbers and published user information so use caution when generalizing.

When I purchased the Yamaha the manual clearly stated that, for safety reasons, the user must connect the Earth Ground terminal on the  front panel to an earth ground rod pounded into the ground.  That seemed like a big PITA for an RVer on the move. I asked other users on internet forums etc. if anyone was doing this - nope no one was so I never did either and I've never had a related problem.

59861acc88fdf_GroundingGen(1).jpg.b2537e4df303e950f37826f84e800307.jpg

The manual for my Yamaha does not mention a GFCI and the fairly detailed schematic in the manual does not show a GFCI.  It does have an overload protection circuit breaker that will trip when the load exceeds the rated output.  It also has the safety ground on the output plug tied to the chassis common and the chassis common tied to the ground lug on the control panel.

5986175edf1a0_Gengrndwiring.jpg.41057612e139ef97e1ed2828a82fb065.jpg

So bottom line is I would advise everyone to really get a good understanding of your generator design and your EMS design before adding bonding to your system.  Probably best to rely on technical support from your generator manufacturer and EMS manufacturer.  Don't assume that someone giving general advice on the internet understands how this might apply to your particular situation.

Note: for some reason I'm unable to delete the duplicate image below???

Gen grnd wiring.jpg

Edited by Ron
rearranged attached documents

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Update.....now that this thread has turned into a bonding thread.....I return you to the original program......

Im at a cowboy shooting event in Vermont. Two other friends are here with the MicroAir installed and we have all been running AC all weekend on one Honda 2000i. (That's each of us on our own generator. Not three AC units on one 2000i)

on Monday, there will be a run on these devices.........everyone wants one!?

Edited by rbertalotto

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Don't confuse Progressive Dynamics products with Progressive Industries products. They are not the same.

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Thanks for posting this!  I am very interested, I'd love to drop my huge Generac gen set from my Class C and replace with my small Yamaha 2k generator and still have the option to run AC.  Will likely be ordering one of these soon.

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On 8/2/2017 at 4:49 AM, rbertalotto said:

First thing I did was install a aftermarket start capacitor.

I'm about in the same boat as rbertalotto... having a hard start cap already installed and running off a Yamaha 2000.

I finally had some time to do some reading on the MaxAir. Looks like quite a good deal if a single 2000 can do the job in ECO.

Already having a HSCap, which specs out higher than the one that comes with their prebuilt 364 model, it seems it would be a lot more cost effective to just go with one of the 366 boards ($158) and mount it in a generic project box. The HSC is already housed with the starter cap and the board itself is under 6"x3". Probably easier to find a mounting location as well.

It seems like what you're getting with the 364 is simply a HSC prewired to the board (cost of a HSC is inconsequential since they only run $6-$7, anyway) and a fancy box. OR... am I missing something(?) 

Edited by Yarome

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Likely paying for ease of install and "plug and play" which, since I didn't know there was a thing called a Hard Start Capacitor, I'll have to pay the premium for.

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A hard start capacitor is a completely different animal than the MicroAir easy start module.  MicroAir put out a YouTube video a year or so ago that talks about installing one of their units and compares their unit to a hard start capacitor.  So air conditioners come with hard start capacitors already installed (they are just smaller than the typical aftermarket add on ones).   

This may have already been shared here, but here is the link to the video:

 

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9 minutes ago, Chad Heiser said:

A hard start capacitor is a completely different animal

Yes. I'm quite familiar... but not entirely. What they have done is basically made a hard start capacitor "smart" (basically, what a magnum/PD/etc class charger is to a basic auto trickle charger). They've given it the ability to "learn" and "adapt" and incorporate control algorithms. If you view their spec sheet it goes into basic details of what the control board is doing with the capacitor.

I wasn't debating the merits of their system, but the actual capacitor that they are using in their system is nothing very special and the Supco spp6 that so many already have installed is actually more capable and specs out even higher than their base capacitor used in their 364 model.

My thought was simply that... since I already have an spp6 installed (as many do... or "could" have for around $7..), what is the merit with going with their 364 model when their 366 board is available and would have the exact same functionality for about half the price. Nothing more. ;)

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9 hours ago, Yarome said:

I finally had some time to do some reading on the MaxAir.

I think that he was talking about Micro-air. :D

I have been looking at the 366 board too, but it does require some additional parts and I would want some type of cover for it to provide more protection than would be the case for the board alone. I'd love to see the installation instructions that come with each of the products to compare them and even take a look at my a/c in the process. I suspect that if one can install the 364 device himself but would need to pay a tech to install the 366, that might offset the savings.  Even so, the price differential seems excessive. 

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