Ordering a new Volvo and could use some opinions

[13speed]

I am ordering a new truck next week after much research, thought and discussions but am still unsure of some things. I am not worried about resale as we will be all in with this truck and will be keeping it a very long time.  

FET. I know that some of you have gotten around it and would love to hear from you about how to go about it. My other option is below.

The dealer says that if I choose a 21K rear axle and 12K front they will not charge me FET as I would be under 33K GVWR on the stand alone tractor. The issue here is that I have been told by Gregg that I would be over weight on the front axle but the dealer says I will be fine. The truck will be a VNR 400 (flat top small sleeper) and according to the build sheet will be right at 13K dry. It lists the front weight at 8698 and rear at 4129 and it will have a 173-177 WB. There will be no DROM, no hauler bed or smart car just the super senior and fenders. My max pin weight will be 8K but my hitch will be in front of the axle not in the rear like most of you. The king pin will sit 18" forward of the rear axle. Henry and I have been working the bugs out of the install. 

All in with max pin plus hitch 2 dogs me and the wife and 175 gal of fuel we will be putting 11K on or in the truck bringing total tractor weight to about 24K. It does mean that 70% of that 11K will have to be on the rear with less than 30% on the front. The only other thing I could do would be to get the D11 which would free up 365 lbs of which most of that is on the front. I have been considering that anyways thinking that 425/1550 would be fine pulling a combine GCWR of 47K it would also give better fuel economy than the D13 and be better bob tailing which will be a lot of the time. I go back and forth on that one. Otherwise I would have a D13 set at 455/1750. Is 30 hp and 200 lbs of torque worth worrying about?

Thoughts anyone?

[Nigel]

Just doing some very rough math 18 inches on 175 is about 11% so 11% of your pin weight and Henry's 800 lb hitch is about 968 lbs added to the front axle.  Fuel tanks are approx. halfway between the axles so the weight at 7 lbs per gal 1225 lbs gets split 50/50 front and rear.  I think that still leaves you about 1700 lbs more for the front axle for you, the wife and the dogs.  In my mind you should have plenty without a drom and smart.

 

Nigel

[dgrulke]

I am also thinking about the new vnr. My personal choice is the D11 with 425 h.p. and 1550 torque. The ATO2612F Trans w/ a 2.50 locking rear end. You stated that you will have a combined weight of 47K? What are going to be hauling? That sounds like a huge / heavy trailer. If you truly are going to be hauling that kind of weight, then by all means, my vote would be for a D13.

Just my 2 cents

Dean

[dgrulke]

Just a quick note. The Volvo dealer, here in Michigan has told me that with the 12,500 front end and a 20K single rear, he can sell me the truck as a class 7 and I will NOT have to pay the F.E.T.

Dean

[13speed]

Nigel,

If that is the case I think I would be fine. Gregg just warned me profusely not to get the 12K front axle and insisted that I would be over if I did. Anyone else and I would doubt it but he has been doing this a long time and knows his stuff. 

 

The trailer is a 47' on the floor line 49 overall NH. It will allow 32K gross but should be 26-27-ish empty. I figure I will be at 30K for sure but am just treating it like I will be at gross. I might average 45K.

My dealer can only select a 2.67 rear end and I am not sure why. That would work well with 11 R 22.5's but not so much with 295/75's with a target cruise speed of 65. I really don't want to go any faster because of what it does to fuel economy. 

I think the D11 would do a good job but am scared that I am stuck if I wanted more. Obviously the mountains would be the place to worry about it and we will be traveling out west most of the time. We will not be traveling full time but this truck will be bobtailed when we are. It will also be my daily driver to work when we are staying stationary 2/3's of the year. 

dgrulke,

I did not think they had a 20K rear axle. That would solve my problem completely. What size tires are you planning and what do you plan for cruse speed?

[Alie&Jim's Carrilite]

Not an Apple to Apple comparison, BUT I have a Cummins M-11 Celect Plus set at 400/1450 and at times I wish it had more.  I know it's not a direct comparison, but HP and TQ are the same or close.  We are 37-38k rolling.

I would go with the D13, I think it would serve you better.

[Buscrusher]

Out of curiosity, did the dealer mention anything about a dual-clutch I-shift option? I've heard there is such an animal...

[13speed]

2 minutes ago, Alie&Jim's Carrilite said:

Not an Apple to Apple comparison, BUT I have a Cummins M-11 Celect Plus set at 400/1450 and at times I wish it had more.  I know it's not a direct comparison, but HP and TQ are the same or close.  We are 37-38k rolling.

I would go with the D13, I think it would serve you better.

I think you are right Sir. I will be 7-9K heavier and would probably regret not having the extra power.

1 minute ago, Buscrusher said:

Out of curiosity, did the dealer mention anything about a dual-clutch I-shift option? I've heard there is such an animal...

Never heard of such a animal. What would it do or be for?

[Buscrusher]

My understanding is that it may be an option on a new I-shift. It makes the transmission "feel" much more seamless, without the gaps in forward momentum like there is with the "standard" I-shift. 

 

[peety3]

Why bother with a 21k rear axle if 20k is the max legal weight on a single axle?

[rickeieio]

33 minutes ago, peety3 said:

Why bother with a 21k rear axle if 20k is the max legal weight on a single axle?

The heavier axle is rated for more power.  A 20k axle may be limited to 400 or so hp while the heavier unit will likely have a bigger input shaft/pinion gear. Scrap can give us the real answer.......

[peety3]

9 minutes ago, rickeieio said:

The heavier axle is rated for more power.  A 20k axle may be limited to 400 or so hp while the heavier unit will likely have a bigger input shaft/pinion gear. Scrap can give us the real answer.......

Fair enough, but the 20k rear axle allows a 13k front axle while staying at the 33k mark, which buys nearly 1000 pounds of front axle capacity.

[rickeieio]

8 hours ago, peety3 said:

Fair enough, but the 20k rear axle allows a 13k front axle while staying at the 33k mark, which buys nearly 1000 pounds of front axle capacity.

Too much to think about without coffee......  Since the GVW of the truck is determined by the lowest rated component per axle, could one order the truck with heavier axles and lighter rated tires, netting a unit under FET, then change the tires once the sale is completed?

In days gone bye, there where 17k, 19k and 23k axles.  At least that's what we saw in the Ohio Valley.

[13speed]

I really cannot see the need for a front axle of more than 12.5 and rear over 20K. Gregg has repeatedly told me to get 13.2 up front and 23K in the rear but what would the need be if it is not legal? Are they just more durable axles? In my case I will not be much over 12-13K rear and under 12 front. Help us understand smart HDT'ers

 

Buscrusher, The dual clutch sounds really sweet but I can find little other info on it. I am definitely sure it is not available in the US. The Euro's always get all the cool stuff first

[Alie&Jim's Carrilite]

Gregg may be looking at a reselling value.  Having the heavier rated axles may help sell the rig in the future.

[Dollytrolley]

13speed,

Just spitballing here but it seems that the devil is in the details here......

It really is not difficult to zero in on the ACTUAL weights that you could expect on each axle for ANY configuration of your proposed truck /trailer combo.

I use a live data spreadsheet that will give you loading for your axles right down to one pound IF......IF.....you input accurate data into the spreadsheet you will get accurate results out of the spreadsheet.......sorta how math works....

 

The best part of the live data spreadsheet is that it is......live.....that is that with each entry .........the axles weights update LIVE so in a few minutes of What-if's you become much better in control of the process of your new truck ordering process.

 

If you want to try the spreadsheet just drop me a email at  mmcdan3189@aol.com

 

Drive on........( run the.......numbers)

 

 

 

[BlueLghtning]

15 hours ago, Buscrusher said:

My understanding is that it may be an option on a new I-shift. It makes the transmission "feel" much more seamless, without the gaps in forward momentum like there is with the "standard" I-shift. 

 

I really like the those COE Volvo's and would love to have one of those as an RV hauler. I wish their was more demand for them here in the US that they actually came here, but I can definitely see why they are used in Europe and other places.  

[noteven]

Order with 13200 front and 21K rear components and have the dealer order the axle ratings at 13k front and 20k rear on the door sticker to keep you in non FET compliance. 

[13speed]

1 hour ago, Alie&Jim's Carrilite said:

Gregg may be looking at a reselling value.  Having the heavier rated axles may help sell the rig in the future.

 If I sell it to someone and they cannot go over 20K either then what would it matter??    

1 hour ago, Dollytrolley said:

13speed,

Just spitballing here but it seems that the devil is in the details here......

It really is not difficult to zero in on the ACTUAL weights that you could expect on each axle for ANY configuration of your proposed truck /trailer combo.

I use a live data spreadsheet that will give you loading for your axles right down to one pound IF......IF.....you input accurate data into the spreadsheet you will get accurate results out of the spreadsheet.......sorta how math works....

 

The best part of the live data spreadsheet is that it is......live.....that is that with each entry .........the axles weights update LIVE so in a few minutes of What-if's you become much better in control of the process of your new truck ordering process.

 

If you want to try the spreadsheet just drop me a email at  mmcdan3189@aol.com

 

Drive on........( run the.......numbers)

I will give it a shot but I hope I am smart enough to make it work.

 

 

 

 

[13speed]

55 minutes ago, noteven said:

Order with 13200 front and 21K rear components and have the dealer order the axle ratings at 13k front and 20k rear on the door sticker to keep you in non FET compliance. 

They can do that? Hummm

[Buscrusher]

4 hours ago, 13speed said:

Buscrusher, The dual clutch sounds really sweet but I can find little other info on it. I am definitely sure it is not available in the US. The Euro's always get all the cool stuff first

I wondered if that was the case...as you say, they get the cool stuff there. Don't you just hate the way they tease us? ?

I'm with BlueLghtning on the cabover too...I love the style, plus the short form factor. 

One other factor I haven't heard mentioned...somewhere in the past I thought I recalled one of the ways to bypass the FET was to order the unit minus the 5th wheel plate (and possibly the gladhands, etc) so as to call it a straight truck instead of a tractor...but don't quote me on that...it just came to mind from previous discussions on this topic.

Doug

[GeorgiaHybrid]

1 hour ago, 13speed said:

They can do that? Hummm

No, they can't. I tried.

The feds will use the lowest rated component on each axle to determine the truck rating. In our case, the front is rated at 13,200 but the 23K rear was de-rated by the tires I chose to 22,500. My combined weight is 35,700 instead of the axle ratings of 36,200. You can also run over the 20K limit per axle under certain conditions, remember that the DOT regs are for commercial vehicles and that some states (CA surprised me here) have exemptions for private vehicles or for RV's.

[noteven]

I would discuss your exemption  request with your Volvo dealer. Ordering a truck instead of a tractor can be done with air and electric connection equipment. Trucks (not tractors) leave the factory as incomplete vehicles so the responsibility for federal compliance (center of gravity, brake timing, lights, reflectors and flaps etc) falls to the second stage body / equipment "up-fitter".

If your dealer does any amount of vocational truck business they should be well versed in these matters. 

Sounds like a great project. 

[Larry&Donna-AK]

On 5/20/2017 at 1:44 PM, Alie&Jim's Carrilite said:

Not an Apple to Apple comparison, BUT I have a Cummins M-11 Celect Plus set at 400/1450 and at times I wish it had more.  I know it's not a direct comparison, but HP and TQ are the same or close.  We are 37-38k rolling.

I would go with the D13, I think it would serve you better.

Yes, I think a D13 provides a better choice. You can start with the 405HP then if you more it's achievable up to 500HP

[rickeieio]

12 hours ago, 13speed said:

I really cannot see the need for a front axle of more than 12.5 and rear over 20K. Gregg has repeatedly told me to get 13.2 up front and 23K in the rear but what would the need be if it is not legal? Are they just more durable axles? In my case I will not be much over 12-13K rear and under 12 front. Help us understand smart HDT'ers

I'll spell it out again:  The heavier axles are not to allow you to carry more weight, but to provide more latitude in engine choices.  A single 19k axle WILL NOT be rated for hp/torque like a 23k axle will be.  Longer drive train life is a good thing.  If you can afford a new truck, you can afford the stronger axles, and the gears/bearings inside.  Order with down rated tires to slide under the FET, as Georgia Hybrid and I have both stated.