Remodeling Older Fifth Wheel

[RandyA]

"Agreed Value" is the term I should have used - not stated value.  When you get old you sometimes get confused. 

OK - You have a vehicle you manage to get an insurance policy for that has a value higher than NADA for the same year.  But, that is only your insurance - collision or comprehensive coverage.  But, if an accident happens and it is the other guy's fault and his or her insurance that is suppose to pay for repairs or loss you start out back at square one with NADA book value.  Your higher valued insurance is not likely to fill in the difference.  Next step is to sue the insurance company of fault.  The agreed value policy you hold with your insurance company adds a point or two, but it is not the obligation of the other company to comply.  You should have lots of photos and keep receipts and records of what you have added (not considered maintenance).  Comparables showing selling prices for same year, model vehicle help.  Unfortunately, it is often difficult to fully protect your investment.  The last loss I incurred with a partially restored classic car was a real mess.  The only way I could even get close to recovering value was to buy back the so called totaled loss vehicle.  Tires, wheels, new crate engine, rebuilt transmission, leather seats, etc. were all recoverable.  Lots of labor to pull the parts but they did not belong in the junk yard.  They are now in another car.  HDT and trailer are a different story - just getting liability insurance and being able to add collision and comprehensive with nothing more than a $500 deductible has become a real circus act (and an expensive one as well).  If something were to happen to my HDT or fiver short of a complete loss by fire the only way I could even come close to recouping some of my investment would be to buy the vehicle back from the insurance company, strip out the good stuff and then sell or give away what was left.

[Steve from SoCal]

I am not sure about this but, an agreed value policy on a car would establish value at that figure.    A policy written for an RV at an agreed value should do the same.    The reason I mention this is, a loss by negligence of another party would still value the loss at the agreed value.    You may have to press your insurance to subragate  the claim.  

My car with agreed value has a un-insured/ under insured component that provided full loss coverage IF I need it.    That would be where and how the claim would be placed with your insurer.    We pay for coverage, if for some reason we need to use, make your carrier do the work of making you whole. 

 

The one thing about agreed value policies not mentioned, the insurer has underwriters who will not just sign off on a policy.    You have to show the underwriter that your valuation is reasonable.     I wanted to insure my car at a particular value, because no other cars in its class have sold on the open market there was no basis for my initial request.     The car took over 2500 hours to complete.    There are a handful of similar cars, none with all the features on my car.  

I have over 500 photos and 30+ pages of documentation on the work I did on the car.  

 

Steve

 

[ALLOY]

On 4/17/2017 at 9:10 AM, RandyA said:

If you want durability stay away from Lippert frames.  Mine broke, as have others.  Ended up building a new frame around the existing frame with many feet of 1/4" thick 2" square steel along with added cross members and a beefed up pin box support.   Fortunately, Forest River Cedar Creek paid Lippert to add all the additional steel at no cost to me.  Frame is now like a tank.

My biggest concern of putting a lot of money into an older trailer when doing upgrades is the way insurance companies value them.  While I have many thousands of dollars added to ours it is still a 2010 according to NADA and it depreciates every year.  No way I could currently replace it with something truly of equal value in today's market.  Rocky's recent experience with an insurance company when he had roof damage from hail storms was a real eye opener about how we vs. insurance value our trailers.  I have not been able to find an insurer that will agree to a "stated value" coverage like I have on my now antique car.

Sorry to say I am no fan of double pane windows.  I consider them a mistake in a trailer.  My reasoning goes something like this:  Framing is aluminum.  Exterior walls are lauan plywood overlaid with Corning glossy white laminate that has the lauan side glued to the aluminum frame.  Insulation is fiberglass batting.  Inside the walls are lauan plywood with the exposed or living side either covered with a vinyl wall paper or painted.  The other side facing the "dead space" between the two wall surfaces is simply lauan plywood.  There is no vapor barrier as part of the insulation in a trailer as we find in a stick built residence.

The interior space of an occupied trailer will have very high humidity in cool to cold weather.  Moisture from the bathroom, kitchen, breathing, laundry, propane and more will cause the cold single pane glass windows to become covered with dew-like water beads from condensation.  It is a PITA to wipe them down with a towel when they become saturated but, it is a necessary evil.  Switch to double pane windows and the high humidity will not condense on the now warmer glass.  But, the humidity is still there.  It migrates through openings in the interior wall around electrical outlets, switch outlets, butt joints, etc. and condenses inside the wall where lauan plywood is used.  The result can be mold or wood rot.  Yes, the trailer may stay warmer and you don't have to wipe windows but the moisture has to go somewhere if it does not condense on cold glass.

We have single pane (or pain) windows. I added a dehumidifier in our trailer with a drain line through the floor.  When it is cold, especially cold and rainy and condensation begins to form on the window glass we turn it on and it pumps gallons of water out of the trailer leaving the windows dry.  We usually think of using dehumidifiers in the summer, not winter, but in a trailer this opposite is valid.  Heavy roller shades can cover the windows in our trailer to keep cold from radiating.  So, think twice before putting double pane windows in.  You may be solving one problem to cause another.

Thanks for putting that (water vapor) in writing.

 

 

 

[Nuke-E]

2 hours ago, RandyA said:

"Agreed Value" is the term I should have used - not stated value.  When you get old you sometimes get confused. 

OK - You have a vehicle you manage to get an insurance policy for that has a value higher than NADA for the same year.  But, that is only your insurance - collision or comprehensive coverage.  But, if an accident happens and it is the other guy's fault and his or her insurance that is suppose to pay for repairs or loss you start out back at square one with NADA book value.  Your higher valued insurance is not likely to fill in the difference.  Next step is to sue the insurance company of fault.  The agreed value policy you hold with your insurance company adds a point or two, but it is not the obligation of the other company to comply.  You should have lots of photos and keep receipts and records of what you have added (not considered maintenance).  Comparables showing selling prices for same year, model vehicle help.  Unfortunately, it is often difficult to fully protect your investment.  The last loss I incurred with a partially restored classic car was a real mess.  The only way I could even get close to recovering value was to buy back the so called totaled loss vehicle.  Tires, wheels, new crate engine, rebuilt transmission, leather seats, etc. were all recoverable.  Lots of labor to pull the parts but they did not belong in the junk yard.  They are now in another car.  HDT and trailer are a different story - just getting liability insurance and being able to add collision and comprehensive with nothing more than a $500 deductible has become a real circus act (and an expensive one as well).  If something were to happen to my HDT or fiver short of a complete loss by fire the only way I could even come close to recouping some of my investment would be to buy the vehicle back from the insurance company, strip out the good stuff and then sell or give away what was left.

 

1 hour ago, Steve from SoCal said:

I am not sure about this but, an agreed value policy on a car would establish value at that figure.    A policy written for an RV at an agreed value should do the same.    The reason I mention this is, a loss by negligence of another party would still value the loss at the agreed value.    You may have to press your insurance to subragate  the claim.  

My car with agreed value has a un-insured/ under insured component that provided full loss coverage IF I need it.    That would be where and how the claim would be placed with your insurer.    We pay for coverage, if for some reason we need to use, make your carrier do the work of making you whole. 

The one thing about agreed value policies not mentioned, the insurer has underwriters who will not just sign off on a policy.    You have to show the underwriter that your valuation is reasonable.     I wanted to insure my car at a particular value, because no other cars in its class have sold on the open market there was no basis for my initial request.     The car took over 2500 hours to complete.    There are a handful of similar cars, none with all the features on my car.  

I have over 500 photos and 30+ pages of documentation on the work I did on the car.  

 

Steve

 

Details vary quite a bit from state to state in these situations.  Some states have underinsured/uninsured motorist property damage as a separate coverage, others include it as part of collision coverage.  Sometimes it's mandatory, other times optional.

In general though, even if a loss is someone else's fault, your best bet is going to be to file a claim with your own insurer.  They have interest in keeping your business, and if you have agreed value coverage, the payout in a total loss is already established.  Whether it falls under collision or UIMPD, assuming you have those coverages, your insurance company has an obligation, subject to the policy's terms, to make you whole, regardless of who's at fault. If the other party is liable, your insurance company can collect against what they paid you from the other insurer.

But an agreed value on a policy isn't in any way a declaration of the vehicle's actual value, only what you and the insurer have agreed to in the event of a total loss.  I could easily get an agreed value policy that covered my rig only to $1,000, but it's actual cash value is still higher.  Similarly, an underwriter could (though not may actually would) go along with a $1M agreed value on the same rig--but another insurer isn't going to pay that.  It's not an objective and disinterested valuation of the vehicle like an appraisal--which doesn't necessarily just look at comparables, but may look at the cost to re-build the same vehicle or any other of a number of methods of valuation.  And the valuations that insurers use in the claims process ARE NOT appraisals--they're biased tools to reduce the cost of a payout, highly automated, and done with minimal effort or analysis.