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Opinions/Expertise Wanted On Possible Purchase


SecondWind

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Hi gang!  I've been researching the net tonight, but would also much appreciate your opinions/expertise about the reliability on some brands/models, especially if you have firsthand experience in one I'll be mentioning (or one very similar).  We've found three TT's online we really really like (based on photos and layout), and are leaving at the crack of dawn for a 3-hour (one-way) drive to Houston to see the first one in person.  We're a married couple, both around age 50, have no pets, and plan on stationary full-time living in this TT for approximately 2 years.  We've downsized majorly, trying to become minimalists, so storage isn't an issue, and we're already aware of the fact that we are irrationally choosing to live in a metal box under the blazing 100-degree Texas summer sun.  So reliability is the most important thing for us in defining what a "good" TT is.

All three are priced at $18k to $19k.  Basic info is...

1.  2015 Forest River Vibe Extreme Lite 268RKS:  34 ft, 50 amp, 6900 lbs, 2 AC's.

2.  2015 Coachmen Catalina 293RKS:  33 ft, 30 amp, 6500 lbs, 1 AC.

3.  2013 Keystone Sprinter 331RLS:  35 ft, 50 amp, 8300 lbs, 2 AC's.

 

Cheers,

Ken

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Well, if you are gonna be in the heat in a TT, I would knock off the one with only one AC.

If you are going to be stationary, then weight isnt' really an issue, although the word "lite" in the description, to me, reads : very little insulation etc. so in some ways heavier is better.

 

I've never had a TT so not sure about reliability of any of the above.

Sue and Paul- fulltimed 2009 -2015 with Dozer, our Gray Tuxedo cat

 2012 DRV Mobile Suites 36TKSB4 pulled by a 2020 F350 Platinum

Our "vacation home" : 2018 Arctic Fox 1150 truck camper

RIP Dozey

http://soos-ontheroad.blogspot.com/

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I agree forget the one with on AC in the TX heat. If you aren't going to be traveling then the reliability issue isn't as important. Most of us think of reliability as "when traveling"(frame,springs,tires etc.). .The refrig etc. will be similar in all rigs.............If one of them has a residential refrig I would lean toward that one.

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For long-term, constant use the #1 thing in importance is the quality of construction. All RV's use pretty much the same appliances so they are not all that critical to the question but things like drawer construction, sliders & hardware, cabinet materials (particle board or plywood), sidewall construction, insulation, window type (aluminum frame, steel frame, dual pane), and a very long list of other issues become of critical importance. All three of the units that you have listed fall into the mid to lower price range and the way that manufacturers make RV's cost less is by using cheaper materials and construction techniques.  It is also important to realize that better construction and quality of materials will always mean a higher weight. I have owned both upper quality rated & light weight RV's and without exception, the lighter weight units are more difficult to cool in hot weather and to keep warm in cold weather. I will wager you that the unit which is 8300# but only 2' longer than the one at 6500# will have far better materials used in in, as well as things like 2 air conditioners, and most likely better windows, better cabinets, and many other important differences. The old saying "beauty is only skin deep" very much applies to the RV world. Manufacturers are talented at making cheap look pretty.

Since you are looking at used RV's, the thing that is just as important in this choice as the quality of build is the condition it is in now. There is no RV that is so well built that none of them ever have problems and even the very best one can be turned into junk in a few years of neglect and abuse. Since you are planning to make the RV you purchase your only home for years to come, you would be wise to get professional help in inspecting & evaluating it before you spend any money. You would never buy a new house without the use of a professional house inspector and it is not wise to do so with an expensive RV either. 

Good travelin !...............Kirk

Full-time 11+ years...... Now seasonal travelers.
Kirk & Pam's Great RV Adventure

            images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQqFswi_bvvojaMvanTWAI

 

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Because we watch a lot of Netflix the first thing I look at in any floorplan is if we can both see the TV without getting a crick in our necks. That promptly eliminated two of your thee choices. I did not look beyond that so, please, listen to the others responding about other factors.

Linda Sand

Blog: http://sandcastle.sandsys.org/

Former Rigs: Liesure Travel van, Winnebago View 24H, Winnebago Journey 34Y, Sportsmobile Sprinter conversion van

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You are smart to be doing your research.  Remember, most RVs, and especially many travel trailers are built to serve the "2-3 weeks a year vacationers with some holiday weekends" customers.  They aren't built to withstand "the 24/7/365 opening and closing of doors, drawers, cabinets which usually involves slamming shut rather than gently closing" lives of fulltimers.  We began our fulltime life in a used (read affordable) 30ft Airstream Classic because research showed that about 60% of all Airstreams made since 193? are still in use, either stationary or on the road.  That can't be said about most other trailers.  they are (were?) build with solid wood cabinets...no particle board.  Insulation was adequate for all but the most intense heat and cold; and the latches and catches held up to our opening and closing mentioned above.

When health concerns took us to a more user friendly motorhome, research showed us that except for the high end models of the popular manufacturers (read Winnebago, Newell, and Tiffin among others), our best choice for an RV that would hold up to the 24/7/365 way of life was, in our case a 14 year old (read affordable again) Foretravel.  Other high end rigs (Bluebird, Country Coach etc.) are just as serviceable for fulltimers but at the time we got such a deal on our 1996 40 ft Foretravel U320 diesel pusher.

I've thrown all these manufacturers out to you merely as a caution to understand that just because an RV has good reviews by non-fulltime users and it looks nice doesn't mean that it can be used 24/7/365 without a whole bunch of constant maintenance and upgrades.  Just sayin'. . .

Jeff and Suzanne with Scout and Sydney, the Cocker Spaniel Sisters touring in Fawkes the 2012 Phoenix Cruiser 2400 Sprinter

 

"What happens in Vagueness, stays in Vagueness"

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If you are looking for a RV type home for two years but don't plan to move it, I'd suggest also looking at Park Model homes. These are small (400 sf) mobile homes that use "normal" appliances and bathroom fixtures. If you plan to be stationary you'll not miss the holding tanks, the absorption refrigerator, small cooktop, etc. Park models are generally better insulated, and use residential style A/C's which will serve you well in Texas during the summer. 

Mark & Teri

2021 Grand Designs Imagine 2500RL, 2019 Ford F-350

Mark & Teri's Travels

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When you check out the rigs you are looking at, make sure they are hooked up to power so you can hear the AC's. Two AC's running all summer in the heat would drive me nuts. You probably won't be able to hear the TV or even talk at normal levels to each other. You are honestly looking at entry level TT's. They will not have great insulation, flooring, cabinetry, etc. People do full-time in them so they may suit your purposes, just check them out very carefully. You may wan't to look at more of a mid-level TT or Fiver.

2007 Arctic Fox 32.5RL used for full-timing for several years. Sold

2114 Sunnbrook 25' RL pull trailer for summer camping and short trips.

2007 Chevy diesel 

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3 hours ago, mptjelgin said:

If you are looking for a RV type home for two years but don't plan to move it, I'd suggest also looking at Park Model homes. These are small (400 sf) mobile homes that use "normal" appliances and bathroom fixtures. If you plan to be stationary you'll not miss the holding tanks, the absorption refrigerator, small cooktop, etc. Park models are generally better insulated, and use residential style A/C's which will serve you well in Texas during the summer. 

That sounds like a good plan. I would not want to put up with the aggravation of monitoring the tanks and dumping the black tank once a week for 2 yrs., + the other items you list. Those travel trailers were never designed or intended for full-time use.

RV parks in Florida have many of them permanently set-up, yet they must buy license plates for them annually. Most do not have axles under them, all have been converted to residential toliets, refrigerators, water heaters, etc.

 

2000 Winnebago Ultimate Freedom USQ40JD, ISC 8.3 Cummins 350, Spartan MM Chassis. USA IN 1SG retired;Good Sam Life member,FMCA ." And so, my fellow Americans: ask not what your country can do for you--ask what you can do for your country.  John F. Kennedy 20 Jan 1961

 

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On ‎3‎/‎28‎/‎2017 at 9:20 AM, Kirk Wood said:

1. For long-term, constant use the #1 thing in importance is the quality of construction.

2. Since you are planning to make the RV you purchase your only home for years to come, you would be wise to get professional help in inspecting & evaluating it before you spend any money.

1.  There we go.  When I said "reliability" was most important, I probably should have said "quality of construction".  The way I think, if something breaks easily, I would say "unreliable" rather than "poor quality", so yes Kirk said it better.

2.  He's not a professional inspector, but I do have a friend who has been living in TT's for years, and is a mechanic.  When we're ready to make an offer on something, he will be looking it over for us first and telling us if it's something he would recommend.

 

On ‎3‎/‎28‎/‎2017 at 3:40 PM, sandsys said:

Because we watch a lot of Netflix the first thing I look at in any floorplan is if we can both see the TV without getting a crick in our necks.

Agreed.  But where the manufacturer puts the TV isn't necessarily where I'm gonna keep the TV.  We watch a lot of Netflix too, but do so over the internet.  We gave up cable years ago, so our TV is actually just used as a computer monitor these days.

 

On ‎3‎/‎28‎/‎2017 at 8:26 PM, mptjelgin said:

If you are looking for a RV type home for two years but don't plan to move it, I'd suggest also looking at Park Model homes. These are small (400 sf) mobile homes that use "normal" appliances and bathroom fixtures. If you plan to be stationary you'll not miss the holding tanks, the absorption refrigerator, small cooktop, etc. Park models are generally better insulated, and use residential style A/C's which will serve you well in Texas during the summer. 

We are also looking at both Park Models and Destination Trailers, but so far haven't found a floorplan matching what we want.

 

On ‎3‎/‎28‎/‎2017 at 11:37 PM, Earl1 said:

When you check out the rigs you are looking at, make sure they are hooked up to power so you can hear the AC's.

Of course.  I would think that is common sense.  You wouldn't buy a car without a test drive and a peek under the hood.  On the ones we've looked at so far, I wouldn't say the AC's are much louder than our home AC.  Must be a noise you just get used to, like living next to a railroad track or a high-traffic road.

 

All in all, thanks to everybody for the many wonderful replies.  We did pass on the Vibe Extreme Lite in Houston yesterday.  It was VERY pretty, but felt extremely cheap, like we were going to break something just by being inside it.  No way I would spend almost $20k on that.  Like Kirk said, manufacturers are talented at making cheap look pretty.  And since it was pointed out that 1 AC is probably not a good idea, that only leaves 1 TT on the current list left to look at.  Won't be able to go see it til next Monday, but that's okay.  If it's not still there, then it wasn't meant for us to have that one anyway.

 

Cheers,

Ken

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On ‎3‎/‎28‎/‎2017 at 11:52 PM, Ray,IN said:

I would not want to put up with the aggravation of monitoring the tanks and dumping the black tank once a week for 2 yrs., + the other items you list.

Most of the parks around here we've looked at are ones where you can hook up directly to city water and sewer, so tanks wouldn't be a problem.  Could use them occasionally just to make sure they're still in good condition, and to keep in practice with how to dump them.

 

Cheers,

Ken

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1 hour ago, SecondWind said:

where the manufacturer puts the TV isn't necessarily where I'm gonna keep the TV.  We watch a lot of Netflix too, but do so over the internet.  We gave up cable years ago, so our TV is actually just used as a computer monitor these days.

RVs tend to not have a lot of wall space for things to move. Be sure you know where you will move your TV to and that space will support it before you commit, please. OTOH, we did all our watching in three of our four motorhomes on a laptop sitting on the dinette. Cozy but not wonderful. :)

Linda Sand

Blog: http://sandcastle.sandsys.org/

Former Rigs: Liesure Travel van, Winnebago View 24H, Winnebago Journey 34Y, Sportsmobile Sprinter conversion van

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1 hour ago, SecondWind said:

Most of the parks around here we've looked at are ones where you can hook up directly to city water and sewer, so tanks wouldn't be a problem.  Could use them occasionally just to make sure they're still in good condition, and to keep in practice with how to dump them.

Wrong. You can leave your tanks connected in some parks but you do NOT want to leave the black tank valve open. Liquids drain; solids build up. Keep the black tank closed until at least half full and 3/4 is better. You want a good flushing flow when you open the valve. And you want enough in your gray tank to provide a followup flush to the hose.

Linda Sand

Blog: http://sandcastle.sandsys.org/

Former Rigs: Liesure Travel van, Winnebago View 24H, Winnebago Journey 34Y, Sportsmobile Sprinter conversion van

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#3 - Keystone is the best of those listed.  Agreed that two air conditioners will be a must in Texas in the summer. I'd also look for comfortable seating for both of you - booth dinettes and many sofas are very uncomfortable.  However, you could remove a sofa and add two recliners.  Monitoring and dumping tanks isn't a big deal. It's no different than a full-timer traveling. They all have to be monitored.  If you find one with dual pane tinted windows that would be an added plus.  Televisions can be placed anywhere - even on a cabinet door. That shouldn't be an issue at all.  Good luck in your search!!

Full-timed for 16 Years
Traveled 8 yr in a 2004 Newmar Dutch Star 40' Motorhome
and 8 yr in a 33' Travel Supreme 5th Wheel

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6 hours ago, SecondWind said:

Most of the parks around here we've looked at are ones where you can hook up directly to city water and sewer, so tanks wouldn't be a problem.  Could use them occasionally just to make sure they're still in good condition, and to keep in practice with how to dump them.

 

I agree strongly with Linda! If you keep the black water dump valve open, eventually you will have problems from solids left behind, and in some cases it can happen very quickly. I keep ours closed, dumping ever week to two weeks. 

Good travelin !...............Kirk

Full-time 11+ years...... Now seasonal travelers.
Kirk & Pam's Great RV Adventure

            images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQqFswi_bvvojaMvanTWAI

 

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So a couple of people have stated that the 3 choices I listed are "entry level" TT's.  How do I learn the difference between entry, mid, and high?

 

8 hours ago, sandsys said:

Wrong. You can leave your tanks connected in some parks but you do NOT want to leave the black tank valve open. Liquids drain; solids build up. Keep the black tank closed until at least half full and 3/4 is better. You want a good flushing flow when you open the valve. And you want enough in your gray tank to provide a followup flush to the hose.

Linda Sand

Ahh.  Good example of things to know NOW, before we screw it up.  So even if hooked up directly, solids will fail to go through because...  not enough water pressure to move that kind of weight?

 

Cheers,

Ken

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8 hours ago, 2gypsies said:

 I'd also look for comfortable seating for both of you - booth dinettes and many sofas are very uncomfortable.  However, you could remove a sofa and add two recliners.

Yep.  We've noticed that.  No matter what we buy the living room furniture, dining room furniture, and bedroom mattress will probably all be tossed first thing so that we can bring our own comfy stuff.  Only limit I've discovered is make sure to measure the width of doorways, hallways, and the plywood box which serves as a bed frame.

 

Cheers,

Ken

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11 hours ago, SecondWind said:

Of course.  I would think that is common sense.  You wouldn't buy a car without a test drive and a peek under the hood.  On the ones we've looked at so far, I wouldn't say the AC's are much louder than our home AC.  Must be a noise you just get used to, like living next to a railroad track or a high-traffic road.

I've seen very few RVs on the dealer's lot hooked to power.  Perhaps they would move one to a shore power connection if you were serious about it, but not likely if you're initially shopping and have several units you're interested in.  Once you buy and are moving stuff from an old unit to a new unit, they likely would be hooked up to shore power.  

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7 hours ago, SecondWind said:

Ahh.  Good example of things to know NOW, before we screw it up.  So even if hooked up directly, solids will fail to go through because...  not enough water pressure to move that kind of weight?

 

Cheers,

Ken

RV holding tanks tend to be shallow and wide so that they fit under the floor and between the frame rails. If the black water tank valve is left open the liquid in the waste is able to flow across the relatively flat floor of the tank to the outlet, but the solids will accumulate near the location where the pipe enters the tank. If you allow this to continue for a length of time you end up with a difficult to remove solid mass (aka Cone of Death). 

By leaving the black water valve closed (and using plenty of water) you keep the solids in suspension. Not dumping until the tank is 3/4 or so full gives a powerful "rush" of water out of the tank that carries everything out with it. Some trailers also feature a black water flush attachment that allows you to hook up a hose to a fitting and jet out the inside of the black water tank after dumping. A nice feature, but not essential if you follow the practice outlined above. 

Mark & Teri

2021 Grand Designs Imagine 2500RL, 2019 Ford F-350

Mark & Teri's Travels

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7 hours ago, SecondWind said:

So a couple of people have stated that the 3 choices I listed are "entry level" TT's.  How do I learn the difference between entry, mid, and high?

 
 

There are several hints to help you in this effort, but the most obvious one is price and next is weight. Both of these increase when you use the highest quality of materials and enough of them for solid strength. If you spend some time just visiting different RV dealers or attend a major RV show, you will find that there are different quality/price groupings as most manufacturers build RVs for more than one market. What we tend to call "entry level" RVs are those which are designed to be used mostly by the occasional user who only uses the RV on summer weekends and perhaps on vacation. They are built to sell in the lower price range to those with low budgets. As they go up in price there is more quality put into the construction and into the "fit & finish" as well as in the quality of materials used in interior decoration. Pam could easily point out the differences in quality levels of things like upholstery and wall coverings, but that really isn't my department. There is just as much difference in quality/price of new RVs as there is for new houses, and many of the differences are the same, or similar and are not easily seen. Things like the materials for the frame supporting the RV, the specifications of the axles, the mechanical things like slides and jacks, exterior wall & roof materials, all make a tremendous difference in both the cost to build the RV and the amount it weighs. If you were to pick a specific size of travel trailer, fifth wheel, or motorhome and then compare all of the different ones that you can find, you will soon see that they range from low to high price by at least double and usually 3 or more times from low to high.

In my opinion, the best way to learn what is quality and what isn't for a new RV buyer is to join the RV Consumer Group and take advantage of the materials that they supply to new members. Since this organization takes no money from any part of the RV industry, the do charge for their books and information but you can join the group and get a great deal of very helpful information for a cost of $99, which is very likely to save you thousands of dollars as you buy.

Quote

So even if hooked up directly, solids will fail to go through because...  not enough water pressure to move that kind of weight?

All RVs have waste tanks that allow you to use the plumbing while traveling or not connected to the sewer system in the way that a house is. The waste from your sinks and toilet empties into separate tanks and so the gray water (sinks, shower) has very little by way of solids in it and so can be left open, but many of us prefer not to do so with these either for various reasons, but the black tank collects both paper and solids which if allowed to stand with water in that tank, will naturally change to liquids leaving little solids left in a matter of several hours to several days. If you allow the tank to reach 1/2 full or more the outrush of liquids when you open the valve will carry out any remaining solids that might otherwise be left behind to build up. That doesn't happen with a house because the slope of the waste pipes is designed to allow liquids and solids to move out together. An RV is designed to store them unitl convenient to dispose of them.

Good travelin !...............Kirk

Full-time 11+ years...... Now seasonal travelers.
Kirk & Pam's Great RV Adventure

            images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQqFswi_bvvojaMvanTWAI

 

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7 hours ago, SecondWind said:

So a couple of people have stated that the 3 choices I listed are "entry level" TT's.  How do I learn the difference between entry, mid, and high?

Cheers,

Ken

Opinions will vary on this, but price and weight are good starting points. Entry level trailers (which are the majority of trailers sold) are built on relatively light frames with light suspensions, structure, cabinets, etc. This keeps the price and weight down, both of which make them appealing to many buyers. 

Higher quality trailers use heavier frames, suspension, etc. Better insulation, cabinetry, etc. add longevity and comfort, but also add weight and cost. Frankly, a new 33 - 35 foot trailer for $18 - $19K is going to be entry level no matter what. 

Mark & Teri

2021 Grand Designs Imagine 2500RL, 2019 Ford F-350

Mark & Teri's Travels

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If you buy a used RV that already has a "cone of death" you can dissolve it but it requires time. You simply fill the tank with water and wait. As the cone dissolves you keep adding water. After a few days you dump. You might have to repeat this process more than once but it does eventually work. The downside, of course, is that you can't use the toilet while treating it. I thought it might be helpful for you to know that if this is the only potential problem that might keep you from buying a specific unit, you might want to go ahead and buy it.

Linda Sand

Blog: http://sandcastle.sandsys.org/

Former Rigs: Liesure Travel van, Winnebago View 24H, Winnebago Journey 34Y, Sportsmobile Sprinter conversion van

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10 hours ago, mptjelgin said:

Opinions will vary on this, but price and weight are good starting points. Entry level trailers (which are the majority of trailers sold) are built on relatively light frames with light suspensions, structure, cabinets, etc. This keeps the price and weight down, both of which make them appealing to many buyers. 

Higher quality trailers use heavier frames, suspension, etc. Better insulation, cabinetry, etc. add longevity and comfort, but also add weight and cost. Frankly, a new 33 - 35 foot trailer for $18 - $19K is going to be entry level no matter what. 

This is why we began our RV life with a used (affordable) 30 ft. Airstream Classic (and it didn't have a "cone of death"  LOL.

Jeff and Suzanne with Scout and Sydney, the Cocker Spaniel Sisters touring in Fawkes the 2012 Phoenix Cruiser 2400 Sprinter

 

"What happens in Vagueness, stays in Vagueness"

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Thanks for the waste tank lesson.

 

On ‎3‎/‎30‎/‎2017 at 4:24 PM, sandsys said:

If you buy a used RV that already has a "cone of death" you can dissolve it but it requires time.

Selling an RV with a "cone of death" already in it is.  Just.  Wrong.  Can't believe a dealer would do this.

 

On ‎3‎/‎30‎/‎2017 at 9:31 AM, mptjelgin said:

Opinions will vary on this, but price and weight are good starting points. Entry level trailers (which are the majority of trailers sold) are built on relatively light frames with light suspensions, structure, cabinets, etc. This keeps the price and weight down, both of which make them appealing to many buyers. 

Higher quality trailers use heavier frames, suspension, etc. Better insulation, cabinetry, etc. add longevity and comfort, but also add weight and cost. Frankly, a new 33 - 35 foot trailer for $18 - $19K is going to be entry level no matter what. 

Those I listed are "newer", but I get what you're saying.  And by looking closer at the stats/specs of online ads, I'm starting to distinguish other "entry level" TT's.  For example, the Forest River Wildwood seems to be a very very popular model.  Everybody and his brother has one of those for sale.

 

On ‎3‎/‎30‎/‎2017 at 3:31 AM, remoandiris said:

I've seen very few RVs on the dealer's lot hooked to power.  

 

We look online at every dealer we've found on Google Maps within a 200 mile radius, but PPL is the place we seem to be attracted to for repeated in-person visits.  Largest consignment dealer in Texas.  Three locations.  Most of the inventory have all slides out, and many are powered up with the AC running.  If we make it to them next Monday, it'll be our 4th visit.  Whatever another dealer has that looks interesting, most likely PPL has that model or one very similar to show, and for a lot less money.

 

Regular RV dealers... yeah, just a few hooked up, usually their "specials of the week".

 

Cheers,

Ken

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I certainly believe the advice Kirk offers, but I do wonder why a well built RV should weigh more than one that is cheaply built.  I would actually think the opposite.  Hardwoods and plywoods are typically lighter in weight than pressboard materials used in many cheap RVs.  Of course, I don't shop for RVs.  I have had the same unit for 7 years.

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