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David-and-Cheryl

Texas Class A or B License Upgrade FAQs

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11 hours ago, Blues said:

It's not really all that straightforward.  Here's the Texas statute:

"Sec. 521.030. RECIPROCAL LICENSE. (a) A nonresident who is 18 years of age or older and who has in the person's possession a license issued to the person by the person's state or country of residence that is similar to a Class A or Class B driver's license issued under this chapter is not required to hold a Class A or Class B driver's license issued under this chapter if that state or country of residence recognizes such a license issued by this state and exempts the holder from securing a license issued by the state or foreign country."

Arizona doesn't require any sort of special license for any RVs, so Arizona RV drivers will have a regular old Class C license.  That doesn't appear to be "similar" to a Class A or Class B license in Texas, which require a written and driving test in addition to what is required for a Class C license.

I think it could be argued that if an Arizona-licensed driver can legally drive his RV in Arizona, he can legally drive his RV in Texas, because any other interpretation just wouldn't make sense.  And that's what you're saying. 

But to get there, you have to go outside the actual words of the statute, so I don't agree that it's straightforward if one has the ability to read.  And in fact, actually reading the statute (instead of just believing people when they say your license in one state allows you to drive in any other state), and considering only the words in it in a straightforward manner, will lead to a very different conclusion.

Wow, I must admit I was a little alarmed when I first read this. Bravo, Blues, for doing the research and finding this statute.

Having said that, I don't think this section of the Texas Transportation Code actually calls into question whether you can legally drive a rig in Texas that would otherwise require a Texas Class A or B license as long as you are legally licensed for that rig in your home state.

What this section of the code says is that Texas will recognize out-of-state and foreign country licenses similar to our Class A and B licenses as long as the issuing state or country also recognizes Texas' licenses in those classes. It's an affirmative statement of reciprocity. That's subtly different, however, from the negative version of the statement, which would be "a person holding a license issued by another state that is not similar to a Texas Class A or B license is required to hold a Class A or B license issued by Texas". If that was the intention of the statute, it would have said words to that effect.

This section of the code was actually amended in 1995 as part of a long series of "non-substantive" revisions. The reviser's report sent to the Texas Legislature at the time noted that the law originally had a subsection that read as follows: "The purpose of this section is to extend full reciprocity to citizens of other states and foreign countries which extend like privileges to citizens of the State of Texas." The reviser explained that this language was being dropped "because the substance of the subsection is clearly a reciprocity provision". (Maybe it wasn't so clear after all? :))

As others have noted, it is a well-accepted principle among the U.S. states that if you are properly licensed to drive your vehicle in your state of residence, you can legally drive that vehicle in any other state. I've searched but cannot find specific legal authority for that. There is, however, the Drivers License Compact, intended to support the concept of "one driver, one license, one record". The DLC provides that traffic offense convictions in other states are reported back to and enforceable in the state that issued the drivers license. 44 states, including Texas, have joined the DLC and thus have agreed to share conviction information with each other. Again, the DLC doesn't expressly say that all the member states must recognize each others' licenses, although it is certainly implied.

Here is an interesting effect of the DLC: if you're licensed in State A and convicted of a traffic offense in State B that would not be an offense in State A, State A will take no action against your license. So let's say, for example, that you're licensed in Florida, which does not require any special licensing for non-commercial RV drivers. You drive your rig in Texas, and a DPS trooper issues you a ticket for driving your rig without a Class A license. That ticket would be reported back to Florida, but Florida would ignore it because no such offense exists in Florida. (Which is one reason that you'd be unlikely to get the ticket in the first place.)

On the other hand, if you're licensed in a state that does have something similar to Texas' Class A or B license, the Texas reciprocity law requires that it be honored in Texas, so once again, you should not get a ticket.

One word of caution: the situation changes if you're licensed in another state and then reside in Texas for more than 90 days. At that point, Sec. 521.029 of the code requires you to obtain a Texas driver's license. Moreover, the burden of proof is on the driver to show that they're not actually residing in Texas. So I'd be very careful if you're licensed in another state and then spend a prolonged time in Texas--you'd want to be able to show that you're just visiting, not establishing residency, and that gets into the whole domicile issue.

You're right that trying to parse all these statutes is anything but straightforward!

Final note: I'm a "recovering attorney", so I have to add here that these are my own opinions and not intended as specific legal advice. If you ever find yourself in a questionable legal situation, be sure to consult an experienced traffic attorney.

Edited by David-and-Cheryl

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The trick is to recognize the "that is similar to a Class A or Class B ...." means that if your state is okay with having Class C licenses good for 50,000# RVs, then Texas recognizes that they are "similar" and you can drive your RV in Texas during your visits there.   And other states have different interpretations of when to require enhanced licensing - for example it is length in California, not weight.   

 

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8 hours ago, David-and-Cheryl said:

So I'd be very careful if you're licensed in another state and then spend a prolonged time in Texas--you'd want to be able to show that you're just visiting, not establishing residency, and that gets into the whole domicile issue.

We own property in TX but retain our SD residency.  We are not employed in TX nor have we done anything else to compromise our SD domicile status.  Owning property doesn't constitute an intent to become a resident.  If you have the means you can own homes in as many states as you wish, but you're still a resident of just one of them.

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15 hours ago, docj said:

We own property in TX but retain our SD residency.  We are not employed in TX nor have we done anything else to compromise our SD domicile status.  Owning property doesn't constitute an intent to become a resident.  If you have the means you can own homes in as many states as you wish, but you're still a resident of just one of them.

That is correct. If you were ever challenged, it sounds like you'd be able to prove that you're not "residing" in Texas. 

It's unfortunate that Sec. 521.029 uses the term "residence" instead of the more accurate legal term "domicile". It muddies the waters even further, actually. Subsection (a) begins, "A person who enters this state as a new resident...", which to me at least means "with the intent to domicile in Texas". But then subsection (b) twice uses the phrase, "has resided in this state for more than 90 days". So does "resided" mean "domiciled", or just "lived in"? I think you could make a pretty compelling argument that the provision is intended to apply to someone who changes their domicile or "permanent" residence to Texas, but the language is less than crystal clear. As a law professor of mine once asked, "don't you think that drafters of statutes put their pants on one leg at a time, just like the rest of us?" ;)

David

 

Edited by David-and-Cheryl

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21 hours ago, Barbaraok said:

The trick is to recognize the "that is similar to a Class A or Class B ...." means that if your state is okay with having Class C licenses good for 50,000# RVs, then Texas recognizes that they are "similar" and you can drive your RV in Texas during your visits there.   And other states have different interpretations of when to require enhanced licensing - for example it is length in California, not weight.   

Barb, I'm not sure that was the intention of the statute as written, but I definitely like your interpretation of it! And that certainly does seem to be consistent with how it's enforced. 

David

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2 hours ago, David-and-Cheryl said:

Barb, I'm not sure that was the intention of the statute as written, but I definitely like your interpretation of it! And that certainly does seem to be consistent with how it's enforced. 

David

I don't see any other way to interpret it.  If Texas says you must be a zebra to drive a 50 ton bus and Ohio requires you to be a giraffe to drive a 50 ton bus, then Texas will accept you driving a 50 ton bus if you're a giraffe from Ohio.

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On 12/2/2018 at 8:50 AM, David-and-Cheryl said:

Wow, I must admit I was a little alarmed when I first read this. Bravo, Blues, for doing the research and finding this statute.

In the irv2 thread, which was linked to here, there was a link to the statute in question, so it didn't take much effort other than digging through a bunch of misinformation in that thread to find it.  And I'll note that while the linked-to version of the statute in the irv2 thread looks official, it in fact doesn't match verbatim the actual statute.  Beware "unofficial" sources.

So here's that whole section:

Quote

Sec. 521.030.  RECIPROCAL LICENSE.  

(a)  A nonresident who is 18 years of age or older and who has in the person's possession a license issued to the person by the person's state or country of residence that is similar to a Class A or Class B driver's license issued under this chapter is not required to hold a Class A or Class B driver's license issued under this chapter if that state or country of residence recognizes such a license issued by this state and exempts the holder from securing a license issued by the state or foreign country.

(b)  A nonresident who is 16 years of age or older and who has in the person's possession a driver's license issued to the person by the person's state or Canadian province of residence may operate a type of motor vehicle that is permitted to be operated with a Class C or Class M driver's license in this state if the license held by the nonresident permits operation of that type of vehicle in the person's state or province of residence.

In subsection (b), it says, without needing tricks, that if a person is licensed to drive a "regular" vehicle in his home state, he's licensed to drive it in Texas, too.  That's what y'all are saying is the case for big RVs under subsection (a), too, but subsection (b) illustrates that the Legislature knew how to say just that, but chose not to in the case of big RVs.  So the question becomes:  Why did they do that?  Why not use that same language in the case of Class A and Class B licenses, too, if that's what they intended?

The fact remains that Texas requires a demonstrated higher skill set for being allowed to drive a big RV than a passenger car, presumably in the interest of public safety.  And it's not unreasonable to believe that Texas doesn't want to allow unskilled drivers of big RVs on the road just because they're from another state.  So they require people from outside the state to have a license similar to Texas's Class A or Class B licenses, which represent additional knowledge and skills.

Here's subsection (a) with superfluous (for this discussion) words elided:  

Quote

A nonresident...who has...a license issued...by the person's state...of residence that is similar to a Class A or Class B driver's license issued under this chapter

It clearly says it's the license that has to be similar, not the vehicles allowed to be operated with a given license.

I think it's entirely possible that they assumed that other states had a licensing structure similar to Texas's, and it never occurred to them that someone from Arizona can drive vehicles with a Class C license that would be prohibited in Texas.  We don't know that, of course, but it could explain why they didn't use the same language for reciprocity of Class A and B licenses as they used for Class C licenses.

But it turns out that some states do allow people with just a Class C to drive a big RV.  From a practical standpoint, what's the Arizonan supposed to do to drive in Texas?  Texas isn't going to issue him a license, and Arizona doesn't require him to demonstrate special skills to drive his big RV.

The answer, again from a practical standpoint, is to assume that if he's legal in his home state, then he's legal in Texas.  But you don't get there from just the language in the statute, and that's why I brought it up at all, to rebut the statement that the ability to read is all that's required to know that.

 

Edited by Blues

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On 12/3/2018 at 9:24 AM, David-and-Cheryl said:

It's unfortunate that Sec. 521.029 uses the term "residence" instead of the more accurate legal term "domicile".

Actually, the term domicile would not be proper in most laws because no single issue creates your domicile. It is the total package of not only where you may be physically or where you claim as your domicile but rather the compilation of all of your activities which determines the domicile. The determination is only made by a ruling of a court when challenged. There are many legal definitions from different sources but most refer to some of the same things. When determining domicile in a court case it is common to present as evidence newspaper subscriptions, club memberships, church attendance, social ties and many other things that are not addressed in law. Legal Nature states it this way:

While states differ somewhat in how they define the place of domicile, the general rule of thumb can be stated as follows: the domicile is the place a person regards as his or her true home, and where they maintain the most economic, social, political, and family ties. 

Edited by Kirk W

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Thanks David and Cheryl for your fantastic overview of the licensing process.  Your article in the Escapees magazine is dog-eared and highlighted.  It really helped prepare Karen and I for the testing.  Ours was done in Marble Falls as we were staying at Sunset Point Resort.  We both passed the written for the Class B Exempt without much fuss.  I passed the skills test, but Karen needs to retest based on an affinity to kill curbs.  She is timid on using both lanes in right turns to small 2 lane streets.  In her case there were cars at the stop signs and she tried to cut it short to miss them.  In my case I was dinged for not using a turn signal when starting the test and pulling away from the curb on the street where we were parked.  I was also supposed to signal when pulling up to the curb again at the end of the test.  

I do have a question.  What will it take to get a Class A exempt now that I have the Class B?  We now will have a trailer that we will pull behind the 44 ft. Newmar Dutch Star that will put us in the Class A category.  Is it effectively starting over?  

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12 hours ago, Pdepperschmidt said:

Thanks David and Cheryl for your fantastic overview of the licensing process.  Your article in the Escapees magazine is dog-eared and highlighted.  It really helped prepare Karen and I for the testing.  Ours was done in Marble Falls as we were staying at Sunset Point Resort.  We both passed the written for the Class B Exempt without much fuss.  I passed the skills test, but Karen needs to retest based on an affinity to kill curbs.  She is timid on using both lanes in right turns to small 2 lane streets.  In her case there were cars at the stop signs and she tried to cut it short to miss them.  In my case I was dinged for not using a turn signal when starting the test and pulling away from the curb on the street where we were parked.  I was also supposed to signal when pulling up to the curb again at the end of the test.  

I do have a question.  What will it take to get a Class A exempt now that I have the Class B?  We now will have a trailer that we will pull behind the 44 ft. Newmar Dutch Star that will put us in the Class A category.  Is it effectively starting over?  

I'm glad you found the article helpful! And "affinity to kill curbs" - love it! 😁 (If Karen is struggling with the driving, she might consider getting some instruction from RV Driving School. They have instructors, mostly former truckers, all over the country, and they really know what they're doing. Cheryl found it incredibly helpful--it was money well spent. Remember the goal is not just to pass the test, but to be able to drive safely in real life.)

As for going from the Class B to Class A...that's a great question, and I really don't know the answer. I'd guess that you wouldn't need to re-take the written tests, because you've already passed them, but that you WOULD need to take a new driving test in a rig that meets the Class A vehicle definition. But only DPS can tell you for sure. 

You could try calling the DPS customer service center in Austin. It's hard to get through to them by phone, but if you do, they're generally pretty knowledgeable. Failing that, I'd suggest going over to your local DPS office--preferably where you'd take the test--and talking to someone there.

Once you do get an answer, please share it here and I'll update the FAQs with that information. Thanks!

David

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1 hour ago, David-and-Cheryl said:

😁

As for going from the Class B to Class A...that's a great question, and I really don't know the answer. I'd guess that you wouldn't need to re-take the written tests, because you've already passed them, but that you WOULD need to take a new driving test in a rig that meets the Class A vehicle definition. But only DPS can tell you for sure. 

 

I don't know exactly what would be the steps to go from Class B to A.  However, I will make this one point, in case it isn't obvious to other readers.  If your intent is to get a Class A eventually, there is no need to get the Class B.  The Class A covers everything the Class B does..............plus the 10,000 lb. trailer towing.

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1 hour ago, chirakawa said:

I don't know exactly what would be the steps to go from Class B to A.  However, I will make this one point, in case it isn't obvious to other readers.  If your intent is to get a Class A eventually, there is no need to get the Class B.  The Class A covers everything the Class B does..............plus the 10,000 lb. trailer towing.

Agreed.  I should have just gone to the Class A to start with.  It does cover a lot that has nothing to do with what we are doing.  But that is path to be legal.

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3 hours ago, David-and-Cheryl said:

I'm glad you found the article helpful! And "affinity to kill curbs" - love it! 😁 (If Karen is struggling with the driving, she might consider getting some instruction from RV Driving School. They have instructors, mostly former truckers, all over the country, and they really know what they're doing. Cheryl found it incredibly helpful--it was money well spent. Remember the goal is not just to pass the test, but to be able to drive safely in real life.)

As for going from the Class B to Class A...that's a great question, and I really don't know the answer. I'd guess that you wouldn't need to re-take the written tests, because you've already passed them, but that you WOULD need to take a new driving test in a rig that meets the Class A vehicle definition. But only DPS can tell you for sure. 

You could try calling the DPS customer service center in Austin. It's hard to get through to them by phone, but if you do, they're generally pretty knowledgeable. Failing that, I'd suggest going over to your local DPS office--preferably where you'd take the test--and talking to someone there.

Once you do get an answer, please share it here and I'll update the FAQs with that information. Thanks!

David

I will check with them and let you know what I find out.  

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2 hours ago, chirakawa said:

If your intent is to get a Class A eventually, there is no need to get the Class B.  The Class A covers everything the Class B does..............plus the 10,000 lb. trailer towing.

Yep, good point. And the tests are the same--so if you have a motorhome, there's really no reason not to go for the Class A to begin with.

Edited by David-and-Cheryl

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6 hours ago, David-and-Cheryl said:

Yep, good point. And the tests are the same--so if you have a motorhome, there's really no reason not to go for the Class A to begin with.

We were given a Class A when we took our test.  We didn't ask about it - but have friends who also got theirs in Tyler and went they got them noticed it was Class A.  I think everyone that went through Tyler at that time (2006) who tested for Class B just got a Class A since the driving test was the same route and the written tests are identical.   With the new testing arrangements, things are probably different now.  

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My assumption going in is that I will have to take the Chapter 6 test on Combination Vehicles.  That was not part of the Class B test we took.  I have been practicing online and it should not be difficult to pass.  Besides, there is good information in it.  My other assumption is that I will have to take the skills test hauling the trailer.  

So here is a twist.  Our combined trailer and motor home length is 75'.  The maximum Texas length is 65'.  Over almost 2 years of investigation I have yet to find a story of someone in an RV being pulled over and ticketed for length in Texas. (Or any other state for that matter)  But I will be pulling up to take a test in a rig that is 10' longer than legal.  

If I point it out they will surely have a problem with it.  Will they figure it out and refuse to give the test?  Will they miss it or ignore it?  If they refuse, it would seem I will simply have to run with a Class B and hope it is never noticed.  Considering the vast percentage of Texas RV'rs who don't even know they are supposed to be licensed (ran in to 5 in the last 2 days), that would likely put me in significant company.  Honestly, the only reason we are working the licenses is for insurance.  The chances of actually being pulled over are lottery odds.  But if they won't allow the test there is not much point in starting the Class A process.  

In case anyone is wondering why in the world I would have such a trailer, this will help.  www.blackpearladventures.com  

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1 hour ago, chirakawa said:

Does that mean you don't have to tow a trailer when testing for Class A?

We went in and tested for a Class B.  It was only after that we found out that they gave us a Class A license. This was 12 years ago and they knew we towed a car.  It might have been a thing with the Tyler office.  

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3 hours ago, Pdepperschmidt said:

My assumption going in is that I will have to take the Chapter 6 test on Combination Vehicles.  That was not part of the Class B test we took.  I have been practicing online and it should not be difficult to pass.  Besides, there is good information in it.  My other assumption is that I will have to take the skills test hauling the trailer.  

So here is a twist.  Our combined trailer and motor home length is 75'.  The maximum Texas length is 65'.  Over almost 2 years of investigation I have yet to find a story of someone in an RV being pulled over and ticketed for length in Texas. (Or any other state for that matter)  But I will be pulling up to take a test in a rig that is 10' longer than legal.  

If I point it out they will surely have a problem with it.  Will they figure it out and refuse to give the test?  Will they miss it or ignore it?  If they refuse, it would seem I will simply have to run with a Class B and hope it is never noticed.  Considering the vast percentage of Texas RV'rs who don't even know they are supposed to be licensed (ran in to 5 in the last 2 days), that would likely put me in significant company.  Honestly, the only reason we are working the licenses is for insurance.  The chances of actually being pulled over are lottery odds.  But if they won't allow the test there is not much point in starting the Class A process.  

In case anyone is wondering why in the world I would have such a trailer, this will help.  www.blackpearladventures.com  

I think there is a good chance that you won't be able to test in that rig.  They "should" check your rig for compliance before they allow the test to begin.  If I were you, I would borrow a dually pickup to test in while towing your trailer.

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9 hours ago, chirakawa said:

I think there is a good chance that you won't be able to test in that rig.  They "should" check your rig for compliance before they allow the test to begin.  If I were you, I would borrow a dually pickup to test in while towing your trailer.

Would a dually pickup have a GVWR over 26,000 #s?  I thought that was the requirement for the tow vehicle to push it in to a Class A?

Someone today suggested I go the other direction and use another trailer.  It would have to have a GVWR over 10K, but that would not likely be difficult.  Something like this.  GVWR of 10K.

Rental Trailer.jpg

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9 hours ago, Pdepperschmidt said:

Would a dually pickup have a GVWR over 26,000 #s?  I thought that was the requirement for the tow vehicle to push it in to a Class A?

Someone today suggested I go the other direction and use another trailer.  It would have to have a GVWR over 10K, but that would not likely be difficult.  Something like this.  GVWR of 10K.

No.  If the total GVWR of the truck and trailer exceeds 26K and the trailer exceeds 10k, a Class A license is required.  A dually with a GVWR of 13K and a trailer with GVWR of 13.5K would fill the bill.  However, I would think that they would accept a rig a little under the weight limit for testing sooner than one which is in length violation. 

I would go down there and ask the tester ahead of time.

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Let me clarify what qualifies as a Class A vehicle, because there are two ways to get there:

  1. Tow vehicle with GVWR less than or equal to 26,000 lbs. towing a vehicle with a GVWR more than 10,000 lbs., but only if the total GVWR of the combination exceeds 26,000 lbs. (If the total GVWR is less than that, it's a Class C combination.)
  2. Tow vehicle with GVWR more than 26,000 lbs. towing a vehicle with a GVWR more than 10,000 lbs.

You could meet scenario #1 with a dually towing a heavy non-RV trailer, as chirakawa said above. The usual scenario, of course, is a pickup towing a fifth wheel or large travel trailer. That's why we needed a Class A in Texas. 

Scenario #2 is less common because most passenger vehicles towed behind motorhomes have a GVWR under 10,000 lbs. But it would be faced by a larger motorhome towing a large trailer, which is apparently what Pdepperschmidt has.

So to answer Pdepperschmidt's original question: I don't think I would take a 75' long combination to a DPS office for a driving test. Chirakawa is right--they should not let you take the test in an illegal rig, and it wouldn't be too hard for them to figure out that it is too long. (Although I guess you could try...the worst that would happen is that they'd refuse to administer the test; they don't issue citations.) I would first find out if they'll let you take a Class A driving test in just your motorhome, not towing anything at all. Drivers of larger motorhomes who tow vehicles four-down have to do this all the time, because you can't back up with the toad hitched. If they ask, just tell them that you'll be towing a large pickup truck, but you're not bringing it because it can't be backed up. Failing that, I'd see if someone will lend you a pickup truck that will tow your trailer, as Chirakawa suggested. As long as the truck's GVWR plus your trailer's GVWR exceeds 26,000 lbs., the combination meets the definition of a Class A. A third option would be to rent a 10,000+ lb. GVWR trailer and tow it behind your Dutch Star for the test, as you said. Either of those approaches would work, but I wouldn't go to the trouble until you know that they won't give you the test just in your motorhome.

Also, you asked about the Chapter 6 Combinations written test. I don't think you will need to take that. Exempt licenses don't have endorsements for combinations, etc. like CDLs do, and to date nobody testing for a Class A has reported that they were required to take the Combinations test. As far as I know, the only additional written test you have to take (which you probably already did) is the air brakes test, which now seems to be required for all Class A & B exempt applicants.

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Wow Paul, I just looked at your website. That trailer is really impressive! I can't believe you can stuff a Kitfox, Jeep Wrangler and boat all in there! Just curious, what is the placarded GWVR of the trailer, and how much does it actually weigh fully loaded?

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5 hours ago, David-and-Cheryl said:

Wow Paul, I just looked at your website. That trailer is really impressive! I can't believe you can stuff a Kitfox, Jeep Wrangler and boat all in there! Just curious, what is the placarded GWVR of the trailer, and how much does it actually weigh fully loaded?

Good question.  Placard is 12K.  Actual should be a little over 11K.  Trailer is 5K, Jeep is 5K.  Plane is 820#s.  Then the additional things in the trailer.  But honestly, I don't know how much the extra things weight.  My guess is 5-700#.  We are headed to Livingston next week to get some weights on everything.  Based on that I could be jettisoning things from the trailer.  From the beginning I knew it would be right at the limit.  

Towing with the Jeep (Trailhawk 5.7L engine) is also close.  It is rated for 7200# towing and 1200# tongue weight with 6800 GVWR.  Betting on 6600 on the trailer w Plane and no Jeep.   Should be a few hundred pounds under GVWR.  But the plan with the Jeep is short hauls or positioning the trailer.  Long hauls are with the Coach.  

Also watching the totals on the Newmar.  My guess is we are well under the weights for cargo.  But that is why we are headed to Livingston.

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