RV Death Spiral

[I'mdonewiththis forum]

I can remember a number of years back where the automobile industry was about the same as the RV industry is now. Remember when if you had 70,000 miles on a car you best dump it because they wouldn't last over 100,000 miles? How about when the life expectancy of a NEW car in Ohio was 1 1/2 years before it rusted out? The quality has improved tremendously and I would expect to see it in the RV industry.

[chirakawa]

The RV industry reflects product quality in general. We live in the Walmart world, cheap is all that matters. RV's have followed the way of appliances, clothing, electronics, etc. Each subscribe to planned obsolescence, built to fill a specific need for a very limited time period.

 

It's the Walmart mentality.

[Jack Mayer]

It is always a balancing act. Balancing longevity/ quality for price.

 

It is a fact that most RVs are not used that much. Given that - many people are not willing to pay the price of higher build quality - which is often directly related to the quality of the components and materials. That is why the custom builders are small. They use higher quality components and put more stress on infrastructure elements. But even the custom builders have issues - all of them. They are far better than the production units - in general - but they are not perfect.

 

A lot of the "issues" in the custom builders are related to components designed for RVs. My pet peeve for the last 5 years has been the TERRIBLE air conditioning units being used. The technology is there for a more "residential" experience, but even most of the custom manufacturers still use RV ac units. Which truly are lousy units from a customer perspective. But the pricing drives them to it.

 

I have a design for a more advanced trailer. Based on LOTS of experience and research. It is built on commercial running gear and uses almost ALL non-RV components. But it will be fairly expensive to build....and most would not want it because it will REQUIRE an HDT to pull it. But it is still in the price range of the custom manufacturers.

 

For the most part you get what you pay for. There are no magic solutions.

[rockintom]

I can remember a number of years back where the automobile industry was about the same as the RV industry is now. Remember when if you had 70,000 miles on a car you best dump it because they wouldn't last over 100,000 miles? How about when the life expectancy of a NEW car in Ohio was 1 1/2 years before it rusted out? The quality has improved tremendously and I would expect to see it in the RV industry.

You are right. American auto manufacturers got fat and sloppy. They were buying parts from the minority/lowest bidders. Most were junk and by the time you got back to get something done from them, they were out of business. Sad state of affairs. This was especially bad in the early 80's to late 80's. The foreign competition at the time sailed right by us. Finally got wise, but by that time our poor reputation was hard to overcome, but it finally happened. Back in the day, I remember skipping fellowship at church in fear of folks bit**** about their car/truck. And rightfully so. Today, just about everybody makes a pretty decent product, some better than others, but all good.

 

As someone a few post back said, it really is hard to compare RVs and car/trucks for many reasons. In our 12 years of FTing in 3 Excel 5th wheels I can see much that could be improved to make a better rig without adding a lot of cost. It's a lot of little things. As a service engineer I do almost all my own work and amazed of how sloppy thing are done, and I'm deal with better built coach! Enough whining for now. rockin'

[Ray,IN]

The RV industry reflects product quality in general. We live in the Walmart world, cheap is all that matters. RV's have followed the way of appliances, clothing, electronics, etc. Each subscribe to planned obsolescence, built to fill a specific need for a very limited time period.

 

It's the Walmart mentality.

Interesting you should mention WalMart. Their buying policy from their list of vendors goes something like this; each year you are required to reduce the price and do something to improve your product. Now if that is true, sooner or later somethings gotta give.

Kinda reminds us of what's happening to the RV industry.

[rockintom]

It is always a balancing act. Balancing longevity/ quality for price.

 

It is a fact that most RVs are not used that much. Given that - many people are not willing to pay the price of higher build quality - which is often directly related to the quality of the components and materials. That is why the custom builders are small. They use higher quality components and put more stress on infrastructure elements. But even the custom builders have issues - all of them. They are far better than the production units - in general - but they are not perfect.

 

A lot of the "issues" in the custom builders are related to components designed for RVs. My pet peeve for the last 5 years has been the TERRIBLE air conditioning units being used. The technology is there for a more "residential" experience, but even most of the custom manufacturers still use RV ac units. Which truly are lousy units from a customer perspective. But the pricing drives them to it.

 

I have a design for a more advanced trailer. Based on LOTS of experience and research. It is built on commercial running gear and uses almost ALL non-RV components. But it will be fairly expensive to build....and most would not want it because it will REQUIRE an HDT to pull it. But it is still in the price range of the custom manufacturers.

 

For the most part you get what you pay for. There are no magic solutions.

Jack, now you're scaring me!!! In our 12 years I've never had a A/C problem. Knock on Freon!!! They have been Coleman/Mach. All have been single units as we normally don't find ourselves in higher ambients. The 5 year old 15K Polar Mach outperforms the older units. Cooler temps and higher air flow at all registers. Last summer we got caught up in Tempe, AZ Elks in August @ 115*F with no shade. We were able to maintain 83*F inside the rig, which was impressive to me. I sure wouldn't want to do that on a single air again, but I was amazed at the A/C performance!!!

[2gypsies]

Did you know RVs are celebrating their 100th year this year? There is no 'Death Spiral' happening or going to happen. RVing has survived the hardest of times and it also bounces back.

 

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/commemorating-100-years-of-the-rv-56915006/?no-ist

[GlennWest]

The acs are very noisy, costly to use. Know our power bill this past month 212 dollars. That ac. I'm in complete agreement with Jack on this

[sandsys]

It is a fact that most RVs are not used that much. Given that - many people are not willing to pay the price of higher build quality

 

This makes sense to me. All those part-timers don't want to pay for full-time quality. Why would they? Yet, most of us full-timers are so taken by the part-time prices we don't want to pay for full-time quality, either. We have no one to blame but ourselves.

 

Linda Sand

[Lou Schneider]

There's nothing on the market I want really. We are content with what we have but I want to make changes that needs to be built into it. exampe; doing away with top air. If a split system was made for us I could install it but then got to patch holes in roof when top are removed.

 

Bad example ... a roof air conditioner mounts in the same 14" hole as a roof vent. That's one reason they're so noisy and inefficient, having to force both intake and exhaust air through that small hole. Install a 14" roof vent in place of the air conditioner and the hole in the roof problem is solved.

[GlennWest]

We don't use the one roof vent we have.

[Pat & Pete]

We don't use the one roof vent we have.

 

Not even for light ?

[GlennWest]

 

Not even for light ?

Got a pillow stuffed in it. Lots of heat comes in if not.

[Rosita]

Did you know RVs are celebrating their 100th year this year?

---

Well, since the date on that article is 2010, it's 106 years, right?

[2gypsies]

Did you know RVs are celebrating their 100th year this year?

---

Well, since the date on that article is 2010, it's 106 years, right?

Oops...I'm a little behind on my reading. Thanks.

[Pat & Pete]

Got a pillow stuffed in it. Lots of heat comes in if not.

 

We do the same on occasion , but mainly to hold heat in cooler weather and rain noise out .

[mysticmd]

 

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Edit or add on.

 

I started my response before Glen posted his but my questions and comments are similar.

 

In my case the following plus more has been done.

 

• Eternabond tape on the roof
• 17.5's
• Interior led's
• Residential fridge
• Magnum 2812
• EZ Connect plug
• Charging system from truck alternator for house batteries
• Carpet

Roger, with "Eternabond Tape on the roof"-- are you saying this is precautionary? And, where? around vents, A/C, etc. versus Dicor? Elsewhere? Thank you.

[rdickinson]

Everywhere, all joints and roof penetrations.

 

The old caulking was cleaned of as best possible, a primer put on and then the tape. Laying on more Dicor left me wondering. The difficulty was mistaking dirt in a crack for an all the way thru crack or separation. Anything that was not possible to get a good seal over like some cables, some were disconnected, tape put down then reconnected over the tape.

 

Not to say Dicor isn't a good product but this Eternabond product is something else. Mark even put a bead of Dicor to feather out the tape to roof as I recall.

And yes it was precautionary. There had been a leak a few years ago. It had been repaired but I always had an eye on it. Water is a pain, it can come in here and telegraph or capillary somewhere else. Even go uphill.

 

If you want pics, send me an e-mail address and I will be happy to provide.

 

Roger

[freestoneangler]

As someone who has yet purchased our RV, my question is which years (and manufacturers) are considered the best when it comes to quality? We recently looked at a Montana 5th wheel and the salesman (who just recently moved into sales from service) was telling us that the black water pull valves have been known as a weak link, and demonstrated them for us. He pulled out on the handle and it came completely out -- on a brand new rig. He also stated that repairing them is a pain as they have to gain access through the plastic undercarriage skin. Inside on the same coach, I noticed part of the overhead cabinets face was staring to delaminate.

 

Our neighbors purchased a brand new Phaeton DP in 2012 and it had a number of problems requiring service. They traded up on a new one last year (forgot the name) and it has been back in service since their return from this past winter/spring season.

 

I'm starting to think a good used Airstream with no pullouts is the way to go .

 

This bit of data seems quite odd:

 

"According to the RV Industry Association’s market data and trends, there are 9 million RV-owning households in America today. Funny thing is that a 1997 report from Dr. Richard Curtain claimed there were nearly 9 million RV owning households. By 2001, that number dropped to 7 million. But, in 2011, Curtain claimed there were again 8.9 million RV-owning households – which he described as “the largest number of U.S. households ever recorded that owned an RV.” So, there were 9 million RV owning households in 1997, and 9 million in 2011 and 9 million today. This despite the fact that, using RVIAs own shipment numbers, there were 5.7 million new RVs built between 1997 and 2015."

 

It would seem the RVIA shipment numbers would be much more accurate. If my math is correct, that suggests ~ 317,000 RV's are sold each year during that timeframe. I presume the numbers are all type RV's... if so, that seems low to me.

 

I just completed reading all 3 links and can't argue much of what the author states... simply based on things I've observed looking at RV's and hearing from others on the pains they experience. All that said, I will say that our 2006 Palomino truck camper has been pretty reliable.

[rdickinson]

If I was in the market, I'd look at these.

 

https://www.rvonline.com/single-ad.asp?Recnumber=67070&SearchMethod=2

 

https://www.rvonline.com/single-ad.asp?Recnumber=66757&SearchMethod=2

[GeorgiaHybrid]

freestoneangler, on 13 Jul 2016 - 10:27 PM, said:freestoneangler, on 13 Jul 2016 - 10:27 PM, said:freestoneangler, on 13 Jul 2016 - 10:27 PM, said:

As someone who has yet purchased our RV, my question is which years (and manufacturers) are considered the best when it comes to quality? We recently looked at a Montana 5th wheel and the salesman (who just recently moved into sales from service) was telling us that the black water pull valves have been known as a weak link, and demonstrated them for us. He pulled out on the handle and it came completely out -- on a brand new rig. He also stated that repairing them is a pain as they have to gain access through the plastic undercarriage skin. Inside on the same coach, I noticed part of the overhead cabinets face was staring to delaminate.

 

Our neighbors purchased a brand new Phaeton DP in 2012 and it had a number of problems requiring service. They traded up on a new one last year (forgot the name) and it has been back in service since their return from this past winter/spring season.

 

I'm starting to think a good used Airstream with no pullouts is the way to go .

 

This bit of data seems quite odd:

 

"According to the RV Industry Association’s market data and trends, there are 9 million RV-owning households in America today. Funny thing is that a 1997 report from Dr. Richard Curtain claimed there were nearly 9 million RV owning households. By 2001, that number dropped to 7 million. But, in 2011, Curtain claimed there were again 8.9 million RV-owning households – which he described as “the largest number of U.S. households ever recorded that owned an RV.” So, there were 9 million RV owning households in 1997, and 9 million in 2011 and 9 million today. This despite the fact that, using RVIAs own shipment numbers, there were 5.7 million new RVs built between 1997 and 2015."

 

It would seem the RVIA shipment numbers would be much more accurate. If my math is correct, that suggests ~ 317,000 RV's are sold each year during that timeframe. I presume the numbers are all type RV's... if so, that seems low to me.

 

I just completed reading all 3 links and can't argue much of what the author states... simply based on things I've observed looking at RV's and hearing from others on the pains they experience. All that said, I will say that our 2006 Palomino truck camper has been pretty reliable.

 

All that means is that 5.7 million RV's fell apart from 1997 to 2015 and they had to build that many to replace the ones that were recycled into scrap during that time frame.

[Nuke-E]

A lot of the "issues" in the custom builders are related to components designed for RVs. My pet peeve for the last 5 years has been the TERRIBLE air conditioning units being used. The technology is there for a more "residential" experience, but even most of the custom manufacturers still use RV ac units. Which truly are lousy units from a customer perspective. But the pricing drives them to it.

 

Tell Danielle I'm working on it!! But air conditioners don't go fast or leave rubber stripes on the pavement.

 

Jack, now you're scaring me!!! In our 12 years I've never had a A/C problem. Knock on Freon!!! They have been Coleman/Mach. All have been single units as we normally don't find ourselves in higher ambients. The 5 year old 15K Polar Mach outperforms the older units. Cooler temps and higher air flow at all registers. Last summer we got caught up in Tempe, AZ Elks in August @ 115*F with no shade. We were able to maintain 83*F inside the rig, which was impressive to me. I sure wouldn't want to do that on a single air again, but I was amazed at the A/C performance!!!

 

Most of the improvements are as a result of switching to different refrigerants and a bigger blower/condenser motor. The bigger blower motor was needed to handle the restriction imposed by ductwork--if you go back a few years, you'll find lots of people with evaporator icing problems. The refrigerant switch was largely government mandated--like CFCs in the early 90s, HCFCs are being phased out in favor of HFCs. (and even HFCs like R134a are being replaced with refrigerants with less global warming potential in new cars, like HFC-1234yf) Some redesign was necessary (as in for higher system pressures), otherwise there would be even less to distinguish a new RV air conditioner from one made during the Carter administration.

 

The acs are very noisy, costly to use. Know our power bill this past month 212 dollars. That ac. I'm in complete agreement with Jack on this

 

The power consumption isn't just the fault of the air conditioner--if performing as advertised, with 2 rooftop air conditioners, we have somewhere between 2 and 2.5 tons of cooling capacity--that kind of capacity would more commonly be found on a 1000-1500 sq ft house in the mid-south, not a sub-400 sq ft RV. While manufacturers tout "extra insulation" packages, they're a waste of money in probably more than half as a result of thermal short-circuits in the RVs construction. Who cares if the wall insulation is R12 instead of R6 if the window glass, framing, and sheathing are all on the order of R1? How many manufacturers actually size air conditioners based on calculations--even as simple as a spreadsheet-type energy balance? But like Jack points out, it's just not something that helps RVs sell.

 

 

Bad example ... a roof air conditioner mounts in the same 14" hole as a roof vent. That's one reason they're so noisy and inefficient, having to force both intake and exhaust air through that small hole. Install a 14" roof vent in place of the air conditioner and the hole in the roof problem is solved.

 

High air velocities are a big deal for noise and efficiency, and the limited space both for the 14" hole (which is definitely a legacy interchange dimension) and the above-the-roof heat exchangers kind of mandate those high velocities. Ducted systems distribute the air more evenly and quietly, but at the expense of efficiency--more blower power, and many of the ducting designs are leaky and/or poorly insulated. Ultimately, what's needed is a move away from a single-unit packaged system.

 

As someone who has yet purchased our RV, my question is which years (and manufacturers) are considered the best when it comes to quality? We recently looked at a Montana 5th wheel and the salesman (who just recently moved into sales from service) was telling us that the black water pull valves have been known as a weak link, and demonstrated them for us. He pulled out on the handle and it came completely out -- on a brand new rig. He also stated that repairing them is a pain as they have to gain access through the plastic undercarriage skin. Inside on the same coach, I noticed part of the overhead cabinets face was staring to delaminate.

 

"According to the RV Industry Association’s market data and trends, there are 9 million RV-owning households in America today. Funny thing is that a 1997 report from Dr. Richard Curtain claimed there were nearly 9 million RV owning households. By 2001, that number dropped to 7 million. But, in 2011, Curtain claimed there were again 8.9 million RV-owning households – which he described as “the largest number of U.S. households ever recorded that owned an RV.” So, there were 9 million RV owning households in 1997, and 9 million in 2011 and 9 million today. This despite the fact that, using RVIAs own shipment numbers, there were 5.7 million new RVs built between 1997 and 2015."

 

Quality can be hard to pin down. For the most part, all RV manufacturers are picking parts out of the same catalogs-stuff like air conditioners, water heaters, pumps, slide mechanisms, etc. If it were me, I'd be looking at all of that stuff as if it would need to be replaced during the RVs lifetime. Based on personal experience, I've replaced air conditioners, a water heater, furnace, water pump, 3 converter/chargers, roof vents, dump valves, water inlet check valves...you get the idea. Major surgery to get to anything would be a no-go for me. Cosmetic stuff wouldn't worry me as much--it might be disappointing, but it's not going to leave the RV unusable. What I'd want to see is that the RV is that the stuff you can't see is put together well.

 

The way I look at those production numbers is that an RV generally lasts twice as long as a car. 5.7M/18 years=317K/year produced, and if there are 9 million RVs in use (not what they say--they say RV-owning households), annual production replaces about 3.5% of all RVs. The same numbers for on-highway vehicles are 17M annual production, and 260M registered vehicles, for 6.5% replaced annually. Of course, comparing an RV to a house would cast them in a much worse light.

[TXiceman]

NuWa and Excel, both built a better than average RV and are now GONE. Teton and Alfa are two more that bit the dust.

 

The average buyer is only interested in getting the biggest flashy box he can get for the cheapest cost. The market for a higher quality unit is limited and therefore limits the number on manufacturers.

 

As Jack said, flash sells. They new buyers only see the glitz and blong and never question the bones on the RV.

 

Then they start crying about the pretty thing is falling apart after a few years. So they decide brand X is no good and go get a brand Y that is no better than the brand X.

 

I would love to have a New Horizon or Continental Coach and a big tractor to tote it, but that is not my budget, So I am in the next tier down with my HitchHiker Champagne. The supplies in this market segment has shrunk drastically and mow Thor has sucked up DRV. Hopefully, they will not cheapen them and let them build for this market.

 

But in the end, the buyer can get a better built RV if they would refuse to buy the junk on the market now.

 

Ken

[oscarvan]

which is often directly related to the quality of the components and materials

 

 

Jack, I can see the countertops and cabinet walls. What "we" are talking about here is the piece worker compensation in Elkhart and the resulting "tight is good, stripped is better" mentality. There is no need to spend thousands on materials or components, there is a need to slow down just a hair, and to put it together with A LITTLE THOUGHT AND CARE. Is that tens of thousands? No. I know that, and I know you do too.

[chirakawa]

Look at this video and it's easy to see how a mistake can go unnoticed. I don't know how they can maintain any quality control at this pace. I've seen videos in the past where the pace was even faster. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXMJrRQ3SVk