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Brake lights on toad aren't working


maggie blair

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​Does anyone have a suggestion on why the brake lights on my toad would not be working when my RV is in neutral? The brake ligths work when the RV is in gear, but as soon as I put it in neutral the brake lights quit working.

​Thanks so much for any help you might give me.

 

 

 

UPDATE

 

I took the RV and car to another dealer and they figured out the problem. CW wired it incorrectly and they had to rewire the entire car portion. :( At least it's completed and working. Be very careful of where you go for service and read the reviews. This is information I should have heeded BEFORE going to CW! Another lesson learned the hard way but moving on. :)

Maggie Blair

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As an electrical repair tech for many years, I tend to agree with RBH on this one since it is the tow vehicle that has the problem. It might well be that when in drive you are putting some pressure and the mechanical connection between the towed and the RV. I would try using some form of jumper wire to be sure that you have a solid ground between the towed and the RV. If you have an ohm meter, you need to measure 2 ohms or less between the two and the less the better. Your light connection should have a ground lead between the two and if it is bad, the hitch connection will do the job, most of the time. The unreliability of the mechanical connection of a hitch is the reason that the ground wire was added to the plugs many years ago.

 

Any good electrical connection would work so if you have a set of jumper cables, you could use one of them to clamp to a good ground on each vehicle to see if that makes those lights work.

 

One thing I didn't ask but do the running lights work when in neutral and only the brake lights fail, or is it all lights on the towed? If all lights then the ground would be my #1 suspect, but if part of the lights work in neutral but only brake lights fail, then it isn't likely to be the ground which is a problem.

Good travelin !...............Kirk

Full-time 11+ years...... Now seasonal travelers.
Kirk & Pam's Great RV Adventure

            images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQqFswi_bvvojaMvanTWAI

 

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In my years as an auto mechanic almost all weird/seemingly in-explainable 12v problems were due to bad grounds.

I totally agree. Statistically, over 90% of all 12V problems are the result of a faulty ground, but I've lost my link with that information.

I bought our MH in 2013. The rear flood lights that are connected to the docking lights did not work. The dealership tried to get them working but failed with many attempts. Just last month I ran a new ground wire from the lights to neg battery post and they work as designed. I had fooled with the OEM ground wires many times to no avail, but the new one works.

 

2000 Winnebago Ultimate Freedom USQ40JD, ISC 8.3 Cummins 350, Spartan MM Chassis. USA IN 1SG retired;Good Sam Life member,FMCA ." And so, my fellow Americans: ask not what your country can do for you--ask what you can do for your country.  John F. Kennedy 20 Jan 1961

 

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As an electrical repair tech for many years, I tend to agree with RBH on this one since it is the tow vehicle that has the problem. It might well be that when in drive you are putting some pressure and the mechanical connection between the towed and the RV. I would try using some form of jumper wire to be sure that you have a solid ground between the towed and the RV. If you have an ohm meter, you need to measure 2 ohms or less between the two and the less the better. Your light connection should have a ground lead between the two and if it is bad, the hitch connection will do the job, most of the time. The unreliability of the mechanical connection of a hitch is the reason that the ground wire was added to the plugs many years ago.

 

Any good electrical connection would work so if you have a set of jumper cables, you could use one of them to clamp to a good ground on each vehicle to see if that makes those lights work.

 

One thing I didn't ask but do the running lights work when in neutral and only the brake lights fail, or is it all lights on the towed? If all lights then the ground would be my #1 suspect, but if part of the lights work in neutral but only brake lights fail, then it isn't likely to be the ground which is a problem.

Thanks again. Now CW wants to run a separate brake light system from the coach to car. I took the car and coach and they want me to ring the car back on Monday. I am nervous as the wiring CW completed caused my automatic keys to no longer work in unlocking my vehicle. Now I have to lock the car using the key....I am worried about more things being messed with on my car. Thanks for your suggestions but unfortunately CW isn't listening to my suggestions.

Maggie Blair

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Thanks again. Now CW wants to run a separate brake light system from the coach to car. I took the car and coach and they want me to ring the car back on Monday. I am nervous as the wiring CW completed caused my automatic keys to no longer work in unlocking my vehicle. Now I have to lock the car using the key....I am worried about more things being messed with on my car. Thanks for your suggestions but unfortunately CW isn't listening to my suggestions.

There is another option to cutting into your cars wiring. I have seen several folks using a wireless towed car lighting system.

This is another brand, not listed on amazon: http://www.towmate.com/RVHW32-Wireless-RV-Tow-Light-Package_p_34.html

I will buy one of these systems when my wife gets her new car in a few weeks. I reviewed my receipts, and one of these wireless systems is slightly more money than having her old car hard-wired for towing, and it eliminates any problems from cutting into the cars wiring.

I plan to mount mine in the rear window shelf semi-permanently. They will be out of the weather, won't have to remove them when not being towed, theft is eliminated.

 

2000 Winnebago Ultimate Freedom USQ40JD, ISC 8.3 Cummins 350, Spartan MM Chassis. USA IN 1SG retired;Good Sam Life member,FMCA ." And so, my fellow Americans: ask not what your country can do for you--ask what you can do for your country.  John F. Kennedy 20 Jan 1961

 

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Do you have any alternative to using CW? They should stand to repair the problem with the key fob not working, but not sure that I would trust them. Did the brake lights work properly when they first did the work?

Good travelin !...............Kirk

Full-time 11+ years...... Now seasonal travelers.
Kirk & Pam's Great RV Adventure

            images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQqFswi_bvvojaMvanTWAI

 

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As an electrical repair tech for many years, I tend to agree with RBH on this one since it is the tow vehicle that has the problem. It might well be that when in drive you are putting some pressure and the mechanical connection between the towed and the RV. I would try using some form of jumper wire to be sure that you have a solid ground between the towed and the RV. If you have an ohm meter, you need to measure 2 ohms or less between the two and the less the better. Your light connection should have a ground lead between the two and if it is bad, the hitch connection will do the job, most of the time. The unreliability of the mechanical connection of a hitch is the reason that the ground wire was added to the plugs many years ago.

 

Any good electrical connection would work so if you have a set of jumper cables, you could use one of them to clamp to a good ground on each vehicle to see if that makes those lights work.

 

One thing I didn't ask but do the running lights work when in neutral and only the brake lights fail, or is it all lights on the towed? If all lights then the ground would be my #1 suspect, but if part of the lights work in neutral but only brake lights fail, then it isn't likely to be the ground which is a problem.

The running lights work but the brake lights do not. That is in neutral.

Maggie Blair

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There is another option to cutting into your cars wiring. I have seen several folks using a wireless towed car lighting system.

This is another brand, not listed on amazon: http://www.towmate.com/RVHW32-Wireless-RV-Tow-Light-Package_p_34.html

I will buy one of these systems when my wife gets her new car in a few weeks. I reviewed my receipts, and one of these wireless systems is slightly more money than having her old car hard-wired for towing, and it eliminates any problems from cutting into the cars wiring.

I plan to mount mine in the rear window shelf semi-permanently. They will be out of the weather, won't have to remove them when not being towed, theft is eliminated.

 

What a great idea. Thanks so much.

Maggie Blair

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The running lights work but the brake lights do not. That is in neutral.

That makes ground problems quite unlikely, though not impossible. I am very concerned about the fact that your remote lock worked until CW wired it, then stopped. I sure would insist upon a different tech working on it this time as that other guy may make things worse instead of better!

Good travelin !...............Kirk

Full-time 11+ years...... Now seasonal travelers.
Kirk & Pam's Great RV Adventure

            images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQqFswi_bvvojaMvanTWAI

 

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Do you have any alternative to using CW? They should stand to repair the problem with the key fob not working, but not sure that I would trust them. Did the brake lights work properly when they first did the work?

Yes there are a couple of other RV places here in Redding but they have already received 5800.00 from me and I want them to stand behind their work..... and not keep messing things up. My front grill on my Honda Fit 2013 was chopped beyond belief and once the lights are working I will tackle that issue. They also installed tire minders at a cost of 750.00 and the monitor in the coach keeps going off..... It's been quite a learning experience...

Maggie Blair

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Yes there are a couple of other RV places here in Redding but they have already received 5800.00 from me and I want them to stand behind their work..... and not keep messing things up. My front grill on my Honda Fit 2013 was chopped beyond belief and once the lights are working I will tackle that issue. They also installed tire minders at a cost of 750.00 and the monitor in the coach keeps going off..... It's been quite a learning experience...

I hope that anyone who is considering visiting Camping World for service work has been reading this. Several years ago I stopped using them for any service work after having to take our RV back 3 times to get a new water heater installed properly, and still fixed it myself eventually. :wacko:

Good travelin !...............Kirk

Full-time 11+ years...... Now seasonal travelers.
Kirk & Pam's Great RV Adventure

            images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQqFswi_bvvojaMvanTWAI

 

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On the flip side, I just had a Winegard Trav'ler installed at Camping World in San Antonio and the job was done well.

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  • 1 month later...

So much has been written about how bad Camping World's service is that it is refreshing to hear that someone had a good experience there.

 

On topic, I would talk to the service manager about the problems. Your key fob has a small battery in it, and it is possible that it died at the same time that CW was working on your coach. I believe that O'Reilly's (and possibly others) have testers to see if the key fob is actually working. I would assume that a dealer for your vehicle would have a method of checking it. Your owner's manual may also have instructions for resetting it.

David Lininger, kb0zke
1993 Foretravel U300 40' (sold)
2022 Grand Design Reflection 315RLTS

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There is another option to cutting into your cars wiring. I have seen several folks using a wireless towed car lighting system.

This is another brand, not listed on amazon: http://www.towmate.com/RVHW32-Wireless-RV-Tow-Light-Package_p_34.html

I will buy one of these systems when my wife gets her new car in a few weeks. I reviewed my receipts, and one of these wireless systems is slightly more money than having her old car hard-wired for towing, and it eliminates any problems from cutting into the cars wiring.

I plan to mount mine in the rear window shelf semi-permanently. They will be out of the weather, won't have to remove them when not being towed, theft is eliminated.

 

Kits like these really don't do the job. You still have to connect to the car's wiring to light up the side marker lights and license plate light, which kind of defeats the purpose. One of the lights toward the top of the results in your link is playing games with words big-time. They claim that it "is DOT compliant for Stop / Tail / Turn functions", not that the kit will get you what you need to be compliant towing a car/trailer. Here's a link that makes it a little more clear what's needed: https://www.etrailer.com/faq-trailer-lighting-info-and-regulations.aspx#trailerless80less30

 

You also shouldn't mount them behind glass--any glass distorts the light pattern, and most rear window glass will have some (or a lot) of tint--you instantly lose the manufacturer's certification that the lights meet FMVSS108 standards. The brake, tail, and turn signal lights are also required to be at the rear of the vehicle, not on the roof, package shelf, or decklid, and as far apart as practicable. NHTSA has made it clear that when it comes to after-market equipment, since the original manufacturer managed to get the lights a certain distance apart (i.e. it was practicable when the vehicle was produced), any replacement for those must be at least that far apart, which may be hard to do with a generic bar or magnetic lights.

 

 

As an electrical repair tech for many years, I tend to agree with RBH on this one since it is the tow vehicle that has the problem. It might well be that when in drive you are putting some pressure and the mechanical connection between the towed and the RV. I would try using some form of jumper wire to be sure that you have a solid ground between the towed and the RV. If you have an ohm meter, you need to measure 2 ohms or less between the two and the less the better. Your light connection should have a ground lead between the two and if it is bad, the hitch connection will do the job, most of the time. The unreliability of the mechanical connection of a hitch is the reason that the ground wire was added to the plugs many years ago.

 

Any good electrical connection would work so if you have a set of jumper cables, you could use one of them to clamp to a good ground on each vehicle to see if that makes those lights work.

 

One thing I didn't ask but do the running lights work when in neutral and only the brake lights fail, or is it all lights on the towed? If all lights then the ground would be my #1 suspect, but if part of the lights work in neutral but only brake lights fail, then it isn't likely to be the ground which is a problem.

 

One other thing that you could do is disconnect the tow bar to eliminate that as a ground path. If nothing works then, you've found a ground problem. If some lights work but others don't, you aren't likely dealing with grounding between the car and RV.

 

Thanks again. Now CW wants to run a separate brake light system from the coach to car. I took the car and coach and they want me to ring the car back on Monday. I am nervous as the wiring CW completed caused my automatic keys to no longer work in unlocking my vehicle. Now I have to lock the car using the key....I am worried about more things being messed with on my car. Thanks for your suggestions but unfortunately CW isn't listening to my suggestions.

 

Are you referring to a "separate brake light system" as in putting in one of those kits where they drill into your tail lights and mount another bulb? Don't do it, for a long list of reasons. First of all, you're degrading the car's factory lighting by removing reflector material and putting a bulb in the way. That's a safety issue for you even when not towing, and illegal (49 USC 30122) for any business to do for you. You're also drilling a hole in an irregular surface, and tampering with the manufacturer's attempt to keep the lamp free of moisture. Depending on the reflector material, it may also be easily cracked when you have to eventually replace the bulb. When you're towing, you've got a bulb "randomly" placed in the housing, not where the lamp manufacturer designed their lamp to have a light source. Orienting the filament differently or putting it in a different location changes the light output--it's possible that it would still meet requirements, but nobody at Camping World is going to have the understanding or equipment to test that.

 

While not technically part of the standard, I personally think it's important to make use of the car's factory lights for another reason. We naturally expect lights to be in a certain location on certain vehicles. If there's a big amber turn signal light, and you're instead indicating a turn with a (potentially dim) red light somewhere else, you're slowing a driver's recognition of what you're trying to do. Same thing with a brake light--it's expected in a certain spot, and seeing a CHMSL or "third" brake light that's not lit will slow someone's recognition that you're braking. It might only be a fraction of a second, but that might very well be the difference between a close call and and insurance claim or worse.

 

It's always bugged me how difficult these things seem to be. I've helped a number of friends set up vehicles for towing (along with several of my own), and I've yet to encounter one that was either complicated or required any of the hack jobs often encountered. No diodes, no extra bulbs, and often very little wiring (rarely running any wire further than the instrument cluster) to make all of the factory functions on the towed vehicle work while being towed. If the vehicle happens to have separate brake and turn signal lights, you also get the front turn signals in the mix, which makes checking up on them (and the marker lights) as simple as a glance in the rear view camera monitor. Added bonus there is it effectively becomes a one-person job to check everything from the driver's seat of the RV.

 

You didn't say what kind of car or where you're located, but I'd be glad to help you get it sorted out.

45' 2004 Showhauler -- VNL300, ISX, FreedomLine -- RVnerds.com -- where I've started to write about what I'm up to

Headlight and Fog Light Upgrades http://deepspacelighting.com

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  • Maggie, is anything new with your light problem? I'd be really interested to hear where you stand on the problem.

 

Over the years I have used several different means of installing permanently mounted lights that do not use the auto electrical system at all and like several other former electrical tech RVers that I know, I much prefer them. I have also used magnetic tow lights and still own a set and those also work well but can be a bit inconvenient. With the electronics that modern vehicles have, installing of the isolation kits to connect into the auto's lighting system can be a bit tricky so that is likely the issue that you have. It is vital that these blocking diode kits be used to avoid cross connecting the electrical supply of the towing motorhome to the electronics of the car, as that can cause some serious problems. By use of one of the means of permanently installed lights that are only used when towing, you then eliminate the need for those parts and simplify the electrical system. While all of us have our own opinions about what is best, there have been many satisfied users of any of the various means of installing the lights and to date I have not heard of one problem of traffic tickets or other legal issues from them.

Good travelin !...............Kirk

Full-time 11+ years...... Now seasonal travelers.
Kirk & Pam's Great RV Adventure

            images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQqFswi_bvvojaMvanTWAI

 

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Opinion is one thing, and you're right about it being low on any cop's list--outside of Big 5er on this forum, you'd be hard pressed to find any LEO that was up to speed on this stuff. But it is the law--you doing work on your own vehicle is a weird mix of federal and state laws, but any business doing the work must comply. More importantly, having the right lights is an issue of safety.

 

The only vehicles where the electronics make things difficult are those that switch the ground side of lighting circuits. Even installing diodes is wrong--you're decreasing the brightness of the lights on circuits that are often barely adequate to begin with, given the long runs and multiple connections involved.

 

If Camping World is going to do this kind of work, they need to do it right.

45' 2004 Showhauler -- VNL300, ISX, FreedomLine -- RVnerds.com -- where I've started to write about what I'm up to

Headlight and Fog Light Upgrades http://deepspacelighting.com

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  • Maggie, is anything new with your light problem? I'd be really interested to hear where you stand on the problem.

 

Over the years I have used several different means of installing permanently mounted lights that do not use the auto electrical system at all and like several other former electrical tech RVers that I know, I much prefer them. I have also used magnetic tow lights and still own a set and those also work well but can be a bit inconvenient. With the electronics that modern vehicles have, installing of the isolation kits to connect into the auto's lighting system can be a bit tricky so that is likely the issue that you have. It is vital that these blocking diode kits be used to avoid cross connecting the electrical supply of the towing motorhome to the electronics of the car, as that can cause some serious problems. By use of one of the means of permanently installed lights that are only used when towing, you then eliminate the need for those parts and simplify the electrical system. While all of us have our own opinions about what is best, there have been many satisfied users of any of the various means of installing the lights and to date I have not heard of one problem of traffic tickets or other legal issues from them.

 

Thanks Kirk. I am in the process of having another RV place do a diagnostic to see how much damage CW caused. Hopefully the new place can get everything working so I can be on the road on July 1st. My grill is still all chopped up and CW is very difficult to deal with. I even had a conversation with one of the people in the Utah office but he wasn't very cooperative either....

Maggie Blair

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I will

 

Opinion is one thing, and you're right about it being low on any cop's list--outside of Big 5er on this forum, you'd be hard pressed to find any LEO that was up to speed on this stuff. But it is the law--you doing work on your own vehicle is a weird mix of federal and state laws, but any business doing the work must comply. More importantly, having the right lights is an issue of safety.

The only vehicles where the electronics make things difficult are those that switch the ground side of lighting circuits. Even installing diodes is wrong--you're decreasing the brightness of the lights on circuits that are often barely adequate to begin with, given the long runs and multiple connections involved.

If Camping World is going to do this kind of work, they need to do it right.

I personally will NEVER give CW another chance to mess up anything! If it's not wrapped and on a shelf I wouldn't trust it! :)

Maggie Blair

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Kits like these really don't do the job. You still have to connect to the car's wiring to light up the side marker lights and license plate light, which kind of defeats the purpose. One of the lights toward the top of the results in your link is playing games with words big-time. They claim that it "is DOT compliant for Stop / Tail / Turn functions", not that the kit will get you what you need to be compliant towing a car/trailer. Here's a link that makes it a little more clear what's needed: https://www.etrailer.com/faq-trailer-lighting-info-and-regulations.aspx#trailerless80less30

 

You also shouldn't mount them behind glass--any glass distorts the light pattern, and most rear window glass will have some (or a lot) of tint--you instantly lose the manufacturer's certification that the lights meet FMVSS108 standards. The brake, tail, and turn signal lights are also required to be at the rear of the vehicle, not on the roof, package shelf, or decklid, and as far apart as practicable. NHTSA has made it clear that when it comes to after-market equipment, since the original manufacturer managed to get the lights a certain distance apart (i.e. it was practicable when the vehicle was produced), any replacement for those must be at least that far apart, which may be hard to do with a generic bar or magnetic lights.

 

 

 

One other thing that you could do is disconnect the tow bar to eliminate that as a ground path. If nothing works then, you've found a ground problem. If some lights work but others don't, you aren't likely dealing with grounding between the car and RV.

 

 

Are you referring to a "separate brake light system" as in putting in one of those kits where they drill into your tail lights and mount another bulb? Don't do it, for a long list of reasons. First of all, you're degrading the car's factory lighting by removing reflector material and putting a bulb in the way. That's a safety issue for you even when not towing, and illegal (49 USC 30122) for any business to do for you. You're also drilling a hole in an irregular surface, and tampering with the manufacturer's attempt to keep the lamp free of moisture. Depending on the reflector material, it may also be easily cracked when you have to eventually replace the bulb. When you're towing, you've got a bulb "randomly" placed in the housing, not where the lamp manufacturer designed their lamp to have a light source. Orienting the filament differently or putting it in a different location changes the light output--it's possible that it would still meet requirements, but nobody at Camping World is going to have the understanding or equipment to test that.

 

While not technically part of the standard, I personally think it's important to make use of the car's factory lights for another reason. We naturally expect lights to be in a certain location on certain vehicles. If there's a big amber turn signal light, and you're instead indicating a turn with a (potentially dim) red light somewhere else, you're slowing a driver's recognition of what you're trying to do. Same thing with a brake light--it's expected in a certain spot, and seeing a CHMSL or "third" brake light that's not lit will slow someone's recognition that you're braking. It might only be a fraction of a second, but that might very well be the difference between a close call and and insurance claim or worse.

 

It's always bugged me how difficult these things seem to be. I've helped a number of friends set up vehicles for towing (along with several of my own), and I've yet to encounter one that was either complicated or required any of the hack jobs often encountered. No diodes, no extra bulbs, and often very little wiring (rarely running any wire further than the instrument cluster) to make all of the factory functions on the towed vehicle work while being towed. If the vehicle happens to have separate brake and turn signal lights, you also get the front turn signals in the mix, which makes checking up on them (and the marker lights) as simple as a glance in the rear view camera monitor. Added bonus there is it effectively becomes a one-person job to check everything from the driver's seat of the RV.

 

You didn't say what kind of car or where you're located, but I'd be glad to help you get it sorted out.

Thanks so much. My car is a 2013 Honda Fit and I am in Redding Calif.

Maggie Blair

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Maggie,

 

Redding is a long ways from where I am, but the '13 Fit is pretty straightforward. Independent turn signals mean that 3 of the four functions can be hooked up right at the front of the car.

45' 2004 Showhauler -- VNL300, ISX, FreedomLine -- RVnerds.com -- where I've started to write about what I'm up to

Headlight and Fog Light Upgrades http://deepspacelighting.com

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