Traveling with guns

[SuiteSuccess]

Welcome BigRich. I agree with most of what you said. the only caution I would advise is the use of wasp spray. Better to use pepper spray - you can buy formulas that are legal in almost every jurisdiction.....bear spray for example is legal where certain pepper sprays are not. The issue with wasp spray is that it can cause blindness and other issues. Best to avoid that lawsuit. JMO. k

Agree Jack. Wasp spray chemicals are neurotoxic and may cause permanent damage which in a lawsuit could be as devastating as using a gun. I keep bear spray in the vehicles. BigRich thanks for the stun gun link and welcome to the forums. Is this what you got? http://www.defenseproducts101.com/covert-stun-master-stun-gun-flashlight.html

[BigRich]

Agree Jack. Wasp spray chemicals are neurotoxic and may cause permanent damage which in a lawsuit could be as devastating as using a gun. I keep bear spray in the vehicles. BigRich thanks for the stun gun link and welcome to the forums. Is this what you got? http://www.defenseproducts101.com/covert-stun-master-stun-gun-flashlight.html

Wow, yes it is, and it's a lot cheaper now!

[BigRich]

Welcome BigRich. I agree with most of what you said. the only caution I would advise is the use of wasp spray. Better to use pepper spray - you can buy formulas that are legal in almost every jurisdiction.....bear spray for example is legal where certain pepper sprays are not. The issue with wasp spray is that it can cause blindness and other issues. Best to avoid that lawsuit. JMO. k

Not to be rude or abrasive, but if someone is threatening me or my family, I couldn't care less about any physical damage that might happen to the perp! I especially like the wasp spray because it shoots a high powered spray up to 20'.

[skp51443]

It is no fun to win the battle but lose the war and if the person attacking you has a good lawyer they are going to go after you for everything they can think of. I'd expect a good lawyer to be able to milk a small fortune out of "the horrific nerve damage" that the poor fellow is now exhibiting resulting from your unlawful acts, and that damage will likely linger until your settlement check cashes.

 

Self defense today does not begin or end with stopping the attack, you have to be prepared beforehand and follow through dotting all the i's and crossing all the t's or you will be sitting court and not likely winning. You might get lucky, I know my luck and don't depend on it being good.

[Jack Mayer]

Not to be rude or abrasive, but if someone is threatening me or my family, I couldn't care less about any physical damage that might happen to the perp! I especially like the wasp spray because it shoots a high powered spray up to 20'.

You may not care about the physical damage if you entered into an incident without preparation....grabbing whatever was necessary to defend yourself. But you have "preplanned" defending yourself. So you have time to consider the consequences. And given that you considered those consequences, and ignored them, makes you VERY liable. Pepper spray in various forms is available that will shoot as far as wasp spray, and is also available in fog, which for most situations is more suitable for defense.

 

You need to consider the best method for defense available to protect yourself and your family. If you are planning to defend yourself that is part off the responsibility. And wasp spray is not the best method of defense in a non-deadly situation.

 

I'm not taking offence to anything you said...this is simply an "informational" discussion.

[Kirk W]

Welcome to the Escapee forums, Rich!

 

Ask yourself if you're prepared to take a life, and if the answer is no, find an alternative defense!!

That is a pet issue of mine as well. I highly doubt that the majority of those who do carry, realize the impact it will have if they ever have to take someone's life, even if fully justified. My youngest son did so at point blank range when caring for a patient in the field in Iraq and while he did save both himself and his wounded patient, he has occasional nightmares where he sees the face of the guy killed, even today, nearly 10 years after the incident. People need to understand what it means if they kill another person and if they aren't ready to do that, they shouldn't carry.

 

My other pet issue is that of proficiency of use of that firearm. Since you won't be at your very best when under enough duress to justify shooting someone, you better be truly and expert marksman when on the range if you expect to do this reliably without endangering bystanders. If you miss the intruder, you may have a bullet pass through the walls of your RV and your neighbor's and shoot the wrong person.

[Newt]

There seems to be (legitimately) a lot of concern about the aftermath of a shooting. If you're dead, it's the other guys problem.

 

Newt

[skp51443]

Newt, Not necessarily, the poor abused criminal's lawyer may well come after your estate for the damage, pain and mental anguish his precious little snowflake client suffered while killing you.

 

I recall hearing of a case where the lawyer asked for leniency in sentencing as the perp was an orphan. Well yes, if you shoot both your parents dead with a shotgun then you are an orphan, so you get a reduced jail term due to your sad state.

 

In the law today you can't expect justice or common sense so planning ahead with the worst in mind is not a bad idea.

[Jimalberta]

Welcome to the Escapee forums, Rich!

 

That is a pet issue of mine as well. I highly doubt that the majority of those who do carry, realize the impact it will have if they ever have to take someone's life, even if fully justified. My youngest son did so at point blank range when caring for a patient in the field in Iraq and while he did save both himself and his wounded patient, he has occasional nightmares where he sees the face of the guy killed, even today, nearly 10 years after the incident. People need to understand what it means if they kill another person and if they aren't ready to do that, they shouldn't carry.

 

My other pet issue is that of proficiency of use of that firearm. Since you won't be at your very best when under enough duress to justify shooting someone, you better be truly and expert marksman when on the range if you expect to do this reliably without endangering bystanders. If you miss the intruder, you may have a bullet pass through the walls of your RV and your neighbor's and shoot the wrong person.

Well said Kirk.....you continually voice reason and common sense on this forum.

[Bob Cochran]

I live in Arizona and am CCW licensed. Arizona is similar to other states in most areas and will comment on some things for Arizona. First off here the CCW is separate from drivers license. I don't know if when you drivers license is run it comes up you have a CCW or not. Some states require you notify LEO you are licensed and are or not carrying. Arizona you are not and is a debate wither you should or should not. I fall into the category of telling the LEO. Even so the procedure when say stopped is keep hands on steering wheel and visible along with other passengers. Tell LEO you are license to carry and are or not. Tell him where the gun is. FOLLOW HIS INSTRUCTIONS same for passengers!!! Do not be stupid and argue I honestly think that is crazy idea though people do. I don't care if you think your right or not. Do not reach for license or registration or anything else without telling the LEO you are and why even if asked for them. Be polite goes a long way.

 

The LEO may very well ask you retrieve the gun and give to him or retrieve it himself (most likely after asking you exit the vehicle). If you are asked to retrieve and give to him please use good safety; watching where muzzle point and finger off trigger. If off safety ask him if he wants you put safety on before handing to him or not. Now I think in most states they can and probably will take TEMPORARY possession of the weapon. Hey if he has it he can stop worrying and so can you; works for you both. LEO's I have talked think this the proper procedure and really appreciate your help. I cannot say true for all but I have a feeling most.

 

It seems all states have weird gun laws Arizona no exception. We do not use the 51% rule rather I believe it says if establishment is primarily used for eating or serving liquor. Of course who makes that determination!!! Basically any establishment can deny guns on premises though some other rules for them apply if they do to much to go into. Of course you cannot even have one beer or wine or anything while carrying. Now here is the weird one your gonna love.

 

If you are riding a motorcycle and go into a bar you can check your gun with the bartender. Have as much to drink as you want then get you gun back from the bartender and be on your way. Does not apply driving a car or truck. Does not make much sense but there it is.

 

Also the CCW means Concealed Carry Weapon. Which means you can carry concealed any legal weapon. If you want to carry and ax or machete whatever under an overcoat it is allowed with the CCW.

 

This just supports what has been said above know your state and all states you travel through. Some states if your gun is painted under your shirt it can be called intimidation and you can be in trouble. Some have percentage rules about how much has to be covered or it can be called intimidation. Of course all this depends sometimes on District Attorneys and if they are anti 2A or not and you just don't know while traveling. I suggest you assume the worst and hope for the best.

 

Finally and I know no one here would do this but a reminder. Along side of the road is not the place to argue your Constitutional rights or any such thing the LEO don't care. If there is a problem deal with it in court and lawyers not on the side of the road!!!!

 

Finally Arizona has been and open carry since we were a territory but certainly not all states are. I would have thought Texas was like Arizona in regards to open carry. As we all know tell recently this was not the case. Finally this is a personal opinion I think everyone should carry if they are legally allowed to do so. If you are comfortable carrying do so; if not don't. If you want to carry concealed or open get the training and appropriate license and don't skimp on this. Carrying is a tremendous responsibility and should you be in the unfortunate position to have to shoot someone or at someone. There may or maybe not be criminal charges and later civil is possible as well. Just consider all this beforehand and if you do carry I want to thank you.

 

Hope this was helpful just a little.

[skp51443]

Bob, that was a great post.

 

On open or concealed carry I really prefer concealed most of the time as then you aren't a magnet for trouble when problem people notice the gun. Trouble can run from unkind words to being attacked or even having someone try to grab your gun. Out of sight, out of mind is something to consider.

[SuiteSuccess]

"everyone should carry if they are legally allowed to do so."

 

Bob,

 

I assume you are referring to folks that are properly trained AND routinely practice with safe use of a firearm. As you know some states do not require specific training to obtain a permit. My opinion is those folks could be hazardous to my health and believe me I am pro 2A and have a CCW. An individual who just buys a pistol without training is like putting a 4 y.o. behind the wheel of a car, if they get it started everyone better watch out.

[Bob Cochran]

Bob, that was a great post.

 

On open or concealed carry I really prefer concealed most of the time as then you aren't a magnet for trouble when problem people notice the gun. Trouble can run from unkind words to being attacked or even having someone try to grab your gun. Out of sight, out of mind is something to consider.

A lot can be said for both concealed and open carry. it really is a matter of what you are comfortable with. I agree for your reasons for why concealed. Some people are just uncomfortable with guns and I understand that. Carry concealed helps in that regard. Also there is a number of anti gun groups advocating all there people report to police anybody they see carrying concealed or not. You can imagine the hassle that causes and is just the reason they do it. Not good for us or the police but they don't care.

 

"everyone should carry if they are legally allowed to do so."

 

Bob,

 

I assume you are referring to folks that are properly trained AND routinely practice with safe use of a firearm. As you know some states do not require specific training to obtain a permit. My opinion is those folks could be hazardous to my health and believe me I am pro 2A and have a CCW. An individual who just buys a pistol without training is like putting a 4 y.o. behind the wheel of a car, if they get it started everyone better watch out.

I am talking about folks even if not required get the training and practice; never to much. If you can get tactically trained is good but not available to some locally and can be expensive. Very very good training though and if you can find training in what to do in parking lots, restaurants, is fantastic.

 

One thing most people forget. The first thing you need to do is escape the situation is the best. A shoot out is the last resort. Secondly situational awareness helps in this regard to get away and in a shoot out. A lot of people think responsibly armed people like us are cowboys wanting to get in shootouts. Not true, in fact opposite is true. I practice situational awareness constantly and is normal for me. I also play scenarios in my mind a lot. What would I do if this happened or something else, the what if? We do that in our driving least I do what would I do if that car at next intersection pulls out, etc.

 

As an example it is illegal to have a gun or discharge a gun on most all Arizona school grounds. I have made the decision if an active shooter on the grounds when dropping of grand kids. I can safely and I mean really safely stop it. I will and take the consequences for my actions. My first priority is protecting those children!! Not a decision for everyone and intensive training, etc. factor into this as well as physical circumstances.

 

Can never have to much training and responsible gun owners wither concealed or open carry need all they can get and continually. Some may view this as paranoid but I do not. I believe it is just prudent and just because you have been around guns your whole life does not preclude the need for training for the TREMENDOUS responsibility to carry and possible use a weapon responsibly.

 

Sorry this is a subject that always gets me going. Off the soap box!!!!!

[Jack Mayer]

 

Can never have to much training and responsible gun owners wither concealed or open carry need all they can get and continually. Some may view this as paranoid but I do not. I believe it is just prudent and just because you have been around guns your whole life does not preclude the need for training for the TREMENDOUS responsibility to carry and possible use a weapon responsibly.

 

 

I had decided to not comment on this part of this thread - you guys were pretty much expressing most of my thoughts. But this does require some comment. Consider it editorial comment.

 

I'm an NRA certified pistol instructor and Range Officer. There are many, MANY people who have been around guns a lot and think "they know it"....Many of these people are very unsafe in their gun handling. And have attitudes about "situations" that are simply not "advisable". So Bob's advice about training is critical. IF you decide to carry a firearm you are ethically/morally responsible (IMO) to get proper training and utilize it - and PRACTICE. Because if you do not practice you will not be able to effectively use your firearm if you have to. PRACTICE is part of the responsibility of carrying/owning a firearm. And training is never wasted. We all have things we can learn.

[RV_]

Amen Jack.

 

Folks I taught cops and air crew as well as base personnel for 20 years of my 27 active duty. I wrote a piece on security in an RV here:

http://home.earthlink.net/~derekgore/rvroadiervfulltimingwhatisitreallylike/id85.html

 

That article assumes one does due diligence on laws state to state. It also points out that I don't feel any need to carry 99% of the time. I do keep a loaded gun in the car and truck hidden, which is legal here.

 

Unfortunately many guys think a gun is a proof of potency, and directly reflects their masculinity.

 

The more they bluster the faster they became trainee number one on the F.A.T.S. trainer in front of everyone. The folks who think hitting a still target that is not shooting back is even remotely like split second life and death decisions feel a bit "schooled" after their first session. Folks, it looks less absorbing in a video than when you are using it. Adrenaline and heartbeat, as well as respirations are up. Having the rest of the class watching helps with the stress simulation.

Here is a video for those who aren't on a data budget. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uy8CK8q_AtQ

 

Some of the folks would start out with how they would shoot first then ask questions. We'd put them in a scenario with innocents, it's a wake up call.

 

I am pro 2A and own a few guns here. I take mine and my backyard range seriously.

 

But while I had them RVing, and left the handguns home and brought my Savage model 24C through Canada to Alaska and back too. 00 buck trumps a 9mm any day in my book.

 

But some are best not "playing at" being armed with real guns.

[SuiteSuccess]

 

"But some are best not "playing at" being armed with real guns."

 

That was my point from a previous post and it should not be overlooked. An individual with a loaded gun with NO or very little training AND keeping that training updated is a danger to me. Case in point. When I took my CCW class in Texas, I looked down the barrel of a .380 twice by a candidate in the next lane who had no idea what "keep the barrel down range" meant. She had no idea how to clear a jam or load a clip much less chamber a round and thank heavens those two instances were with an unloaded gun. That candidate was dismissed from the class by the instructor and has no business CARRYING a firearm on her person. This is not a debate about her right to OWN one. People should look at Switzerlands gun laws to see that the entire citizenry is considered an armed militia where continued training is emphasized. Not being political at all just stressing being armed carries extreme individual responsibilities.

[greenacres]

Cops are suppose to be expert's with fire arm's look how that's working out

[Pat & Pete]

Cops are suppose to be expert's with fire arm's look how that's working out

 

Ha. Not all cops should be cops .

[BigRich]

You may not care about the physical damage if you entered into an incident without preparation....grabbing whatever was necessary to defend yourself. But you have "preplanned" defending yourself. So you have time to consider the consequences. And given that you considered those consequences, and ignored them, makes you VERY liable. Pepper spray in various forms is available that will shoot as far as wasp spray, and is also available in fog, which for most situations is more suitable for defense.

 

You need to consider the best method for defense available to protect yourself and your family. If you are planning to defend yourself that is part off the responsibility. And wasp spray is not the best method of defense in a non-deadly situation.

 

I'm not taking offence to anything you said...this is simply an "informational" discussion.

Ah, but I have not pre-planned for defense! I have pre-planned for wasps! If someone plans to rob me, I will grab whatever is nearest, just like you would with, say a brick or a tree branch. And I spent 8 years on the job in NYC, so let me tell you, there is no such thing as a non-deadly situation when a perp is in the act of a crime. You prepare for, and react to ANY criminal with the force necessary to control the situation. I know of perps who have stolen $5 items from a store and killed the store clerk to get away. There is no way of telling what a perp is thinking or needing, and the last thing I will do is ask them to find out, or be caring or concerned for their well being. A truck driver was just killed last week for his pack of cigarettes...

 

I have carefully thought out my responsibilities when protecting my family and possessions. I appreciate your advise, but I can take out more perps with a can of wasp spray and give myself the time needed to get away than someone with a hand gun.

 

If I ever do get in this position, I know exactly how to handle the police and statements. No lawsuit will ever fly unless you say the wrong things...

[Jack Mayer]

 

No lawsuit will ever fly unless you say the wrong things...

That is simply not the case. A lawsuit can easily be filed no matter what you say or how justified you were/are, assuming you use a firearm. It happens all the time, and you are going to have to defend against it - even if you win. To the tune of probably $50K+ unless you are an attorney.

 

If you just use your wasp spray you may or may not be sued....If it works for you, go for it....I'll stick to pepper spray for a non-lethal alternative.

[BigRich]

That is simply not the case. A lawsuit can easily be filed no matter what you say or how justified you were/are, assuming you use a firearm. It happens all the time, and you are going to have to defend against it - even if you win. To the tune of probably $50K+ unless you are an attorney.

 

If you just use your wasp spray you may or may not be sued....If it works for you, go for it....I'll stick to pepper spray for a non-lethal alternative.

You're contradicting yourself. Yes, anyone can file suit for any reason, however, the chances of a criminal having the means to retain an attorney are slim to none. This hypothetical example would not be the State pressing charges, it would be the perp. You need lots of money to sue, and you also need a lawyer who would represent a criminal who was hurt in the act of committing the crime. No probono chances on this one.

 

Even so, what's the difference what spray you choose to use? YOUR spray proves intent to harm and disable, mine does not...

[greenacres]

We never stay at a campground or park we only adventure camp. Our trailer has twelve high intensity strobe lights nothing and I mean nothing man or beast comes within one hundred yards of our camp when I switch them on. Used them a few times in our ventures. They even work in bright sunlight. You can't block the light it's everywhere. Thought about connecting them to a motion sensor but our dog alerts us when something is wrong. Just saying that there are plenty of other options other than doing bodily harm.

[SuiteSuccess]

Greenacres,

 

Have to agree with you with a caveat. In any planned criminal action basically five steps occur. I paraphrase these. 1. Identifying and marking- the perp picks his target. 2. Casing - the perp identifies weaknesses and timing of action. 3. Initiation- the perp makes initial contact. 4. Confrontation- the perp and victim have a confrontation . 5. Escalation and criminalization.- the confrontation may become violent.

Steps 1-3 can be addressed the majority of the time with alternative means as you describe and with situational awareness and usually leads to de-escalation of the situation. Simple eye contact or switching on lights may alert the perp you are aware of their actions. Perps want easy targets. Step 4 is iffy. Physical confrontation such as verbal and /or physical contact may be necessary. "yelling" "Hit and run." Step5.- involves either fighting for you life with ANY means available or submitting to the attack if there is no means of escape. Always important to have pre-planned in your mind your reaction to each step.

[greenacres]

Eye contact should be the last resort. you must be completely aware of the perps actions and mood swings. Eye contact with a perp that is on meth will not end well for you. Our strobe system worked against determined bears with cub's, raccoons,skunks and once against a cougar. Never used it on humans except myself when I tested it. I not only gave temporary blindness it caused severe nausea.

[Ronbo]

More info you your strobe system please