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phoenix2013

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Over on other forums, there have been ongoing discussions about the classic question "What truck do I need to tow this 22000k trailer?" There are several folks that always respond saying that their new Rams and Fords have no issues pulling AND stopping these trailers.

My question is.

With the low % pin weights of these triple axle RV's, do the smaller trucks with solid mount hitches- B&W seems to be the popular choice- not feel the trailer sway, or the floating?

Has no one had an issue since with a solid mount hitch the upward pull of the pin has to lift the truck? Or does the HDT crowd with the air hitchs see and hear it better? Not necessarily feel the movement until the trailer sways violently?

Those topics on the other forums always end up with the HDT crowd getting bashed because we're towing with overkill trucks that the smaller 3500 class trucks can now tow.

 

I couldn't resist :)

 

My reply!

 

Also, i'd like to try these new stops.....I'll have to ask Gregg to bring some home from the ECR. Any price yet on the retrofit?

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Also, i'd like to try these new stops.....I'll have to ask Gregg to bring some home from the ECR. Any price yet on the retrofit?

 

Rick I don't think there will be quantity of these available at the ECR and I will not be there due to health issues. If they work and work well I will bring a bunch to the National.

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Rick,

NC Hauler was on here awhile ago....

I think he finally saw the light.... Or should I say the "Dark Side"!

I guess he found more " friends" on another forum!

Yes, occasionally we have guests and "contributors" from other forums and yes I have "ventured" into the wilderness of other forums and entered the fray. I've contributed to serious discussions in positive and constructive ways but not always. For utter idiots I have written special missives to raise their blood pressure, an "example.

 

Fundamentalist religion, virgins, puberty and F-350s

 

Those of us who have become the veteran pullers who "graduated" to HDTs are often stymied by the recalcitrant attitudes and refusal to listen to reason, examples, statistics, specs, etc. Suffer no longer I have a "rational explanation".

I am known among my friends to be both an "amateur psychologist" and a comedian. I felt that combining those two skills could be the "ticket", which brings us to items in the title of the thread.

 

Those who wish to pull big rigs with pickups view that as a "fundamental right" based on lack of forbidding laws, Detroit's encouragement and superior skills honed by years of practice.

My "take" on fundamentalist religion is that it comprises of strong core beliefs, constantly reinforced. That's why it's so difficult to "reprogram" those who have fallen into its grasp or were kidnapped by any cult. The high priests of Detroit through the megaphones of TV reinforce this hour on the hour with glorious pictures of pickups falling out airplanes and stopping 30,000 behemoths, or with trucks racing towards precipice and stopping with inches to spare. No wonder the "believers" are willing to straps their kids to the seats of the F-250s and F-350s and take them onto New Jersey turnpike or the New York Thruway.

Heck, I believe that should the sales drop because of safety concerns, Detroit would promise 40 virgins to those who might arrive at that Big Campground in the Sky in their F-350 or Toyota Tundra.

Since I mentioned virgins it dovetails into subject of innocence and puberty. Pulling with pickups is in my opinion the puberty of RVing. Having myself pulled with four pickups over a period of 30 years I can only explain it as a case of arrested development.

During those 30 years I could vociferously argue about my abilities with a pickup, my great "skills" with a pickup and many other "theories". Not unlike the "discussions" (if you guys can remember that far back) with your fellow virgins of how it would be to be with the member of the opposite sex before one had the chance. Not having "experience" with more "capable partners" robs one of the necessary frame of reference for factual comparison. And those of you who are on second or third go around in the marital arena can attest that a relationship can be quite disappointing if the partner reveals lack of skills or abilities which you were expecting but which were never there from the beginning.

Having graduated to MDTs and HDTs has elevated my "experience" to a whole new plateau. These vehicles were truly capable "partners" to my RVing enjoyment, capable of doing their part, not requiring special care, or elevated skills.

I had the misfortune of pulling with a very nicely appointed pickup (again) for a year until the HDT was ready. It felt every day like that "error in judgment" made by some of us picking up a "trophy wife". The looks might be there but not much beyond that. And the stress of that "relationship", forget it!

 

So to conclude my thesis as an "amateur psychologist" and using marital comparison with which most of us are familiar the situation is as follows: Those who pull with pickups just emerged from RV puberty and are in their first marriage. They feel that they chose "wisely" but the doubts are emerging. The partner is lacking, is financially irresponsible (demanding computer chips, engines upgrades, transmission upgrades, brakes, etc.), but you still want to keep her because she's good looking. And here come these nasty HDT guys acting like marriage counselors and telling you that your only solution is a divorce. After you consider what the divorce is going to cost, you realize that you are "stuck" while they relentlessly showcase their partners and tell you about the “superiority” of their partners!

It is particularly galling when they do it in front of your wife who is barely on board that this is the “best there is” and still not over the fact that you spent $60K ON A PICKUP!

 

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Couple of things here.

 

bump%2Bretention%2Bjpeg.jpg

First, the smaller bump is fully documented in CAD, ready for "virtual assembly".

 

Second, few post back I said I was trying to come up with an "elegant" way to secure the bump in the assembly. The bumps have basically a clearance hole through the center (with convoluted chambers) and are meant to be slid over a shock absorber upper rod. This plus being a rubber did not exactly render itself to my application or mounting. But I figured a rubber on rubber might be a ticket to success.

So the scheme is:

A well nut will be passed through the upper retention plate into the upper bump hole which is uniform in that section and only few thousands oversize from the well nut chosen.

Fender washer will be placed over the wellnut flange to provide bearing for the flange bolt.

Bolt will pull the wellnut ferrule and swell the wellnut within the bump mounting hole. The length and the spec on the wellnut indicate plenty of margin (swell capacity).

 

I think it's "elegant enough", now to see if it will really work. McMaster-Carr is delivering all the parts tomorrow.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Progress report.

 

The parts have arrived from the shop.

 

DSC_0052.JPG

 

The 1/2 inch stuff was waterjet cut. The 1/4 inch stuff was laser cut.

 

DSC_0054.JPG

 

The bumps fit in perfectly. Will have to do some drilling and tapping to mount the retaining plates, the shop could have done it but the guy I hired (myself), will do it for nothing.

 

Purchased a nice air gauge.

 

DSC_0055.JPG

 

I will plumb it into the air bag side on one of the ETs I'm building and do some static testing with different air pressures (bypassing the leveling valve). Should be interesting to see how much air these will require to collapse them to the upper stops. This will also tell us how much preload these develop.

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Well i finally was able to weigh the loaded truck and trailer.

 

truck front empty....5842 loaded....8080 difference.....2238

 

truck rear empty.....7583 loaded.....10060 difference....2477

 

trailer axles loaded.....21520

 

The large increase in front axle weight i think is mostly due to fuel and cargo added to truck after my initial weighing of the truck empty. Hitch is about 3" behind truck axle.

 

I will leave the heavy math to the wizards here but it seems that i have around 11% pin weight even with 600# of water in the tank!

I am kind of stumped as what to do next. I can't weigh w/out motorcycles until i get home next month.

2004 Freightliner m2 106  2015 DRV lx450 Fullhouse  2019 Indian Springfield 2014 Yamaha 950 V-Star

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Orca, this doesn't look good, but let me first understand some terms.

When you say truck rear (or front) empty, does it men disconnected from the fifth or before you added fuel and cargo to the truck.

In order for us (the math wizards) to do the math what we need this:

Weigh the truck and trailer connected and get the three number truck front, truck rear and the trailer axles.

Disconnect the truck and DON'T DO ANYTHING TO THE TRUCK, ADD FUEL CARGO OR ANYTHING, run it on the same scales and get the two new numbers front truck weight and rear truck weight.

If you added any cargo or fuel between the weighing to the truck that muddies the water.

However, if that's how you obtained the above numbers that says that your trailer is 23,997 lb loaded and the pin weight is 2,477 lb, or 10.3%

Before I venture an opinion let me know exactly how you weighed the pair and was it with the cargo (motorcycles) in the fifth's garage?

But regardless I also see two things:

Trailer axles weight is trailer axles weight and if loaded it's 21,520 on a 24K max GVWR trailer than most of the GVWR is on those axles, by comparison I only carry 18K + on my three axle on my 40 footer.

And note where my axles are,

2006%2B-%2B03%2BSpring%2BNewsletter_A1.j

compared where they put them on a Fullhouse.

Screen%2BShot%2B03-31-16%2Bat%2B06.44%2B

 

On a Fullhouse they are almost in the middle and in front of the garage. I would venture a guess that you will offload the pin by 75% or more of any weight you put in the garage.

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When i said empty i meant i weighed the truck with about 50 gal fuel and no cargo and no trailer. The dual tanks carry about 175 gal. I take 15 gal diesel and 10 gal gas in jerry cans stored mid ship. Spare 12v battery,tool box,a few air tools,wife and dogs must add up to around 500 lb not counting fuel.

The loaded weights that i listed was after i fueled and moved over to the CAT scale with the motorcycles loaded. I have taken to traveling with about 75 gal of fresh water as well.

I hope this info helps.

2004 Freightliner m2 106  2015 DRV lx450 Fullhouse  2019 Indian Springfield 2014 Yamaha 950 V-Star

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If you filled the tanks plus the "extras" you added around 1100-1200 pounds of fuel and if you added an estimated 500 lb of "incidentals" you would have changed the truck weight by about 1700 pounds. Since the fuel and the "persons" are located from the middle to closer to the front I would say about half or little more than half of that weight ended on the front axle and the rest on the rear axle. This does not compute since you front axle went up by 2238 lb, which is more than the entire change in weight I estimated. Seems like whatever you added had a much more pronounced effect on the weight of the truck The trailer being so close to the axle (but also slightly behind) should only affect the rear axle weight, it will not lighten the front by any significant amount.

In any event the 2477 lb as a pin weight is piddly compared to the GVWR of the entire rig and if you changed the weight of the truck before you got that measurement that means that it is not the actual pin weight, the pin weigh is even less.

I would be really concerned particularly if you experienced handling problems on your first trip. I would reweigh the rig together and truck separately without changing anything, that is the only way to come up with the true number for the pin weight.

If you are really, really light and the rig is squirrelly on the road there are only two option, one mount some weights in the front compartment (add a generator, etc.), or move the axles back. Moving the axles is not unheard off I know personally of couple instances when this was done. But I don't think this is in the cards on this rig with the wheel wells and the rear door, etc.

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Phoenix did you forget the increase of the fron axle? I get 26,235 total and 18% pin wt.

I don't understand exactly how this changed or why, particularly since the truck by itself changed by 1700 lb or more, so none of that weight can be attributed to the pin. The only way some of the pin weight would show up on the fronts would be if the hitch point was forward of the rear axle, that point is behind the axle, not by much only 3 inches, but still behind. Something being that close to the center of the axle is a perfect teeter totter in balance, the difference in weight between unhitched and hitched is 100% attributable to the pin weight and none of it transferred forward or back, but what we have here is also change in the overall weight of the truck alone which makes that pin weigh no longer valid.

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Phoenix,

Good thing you already have a " head start" on that "floater" issue. Looks like you may have lots of new business coming your way if the trailer mfg's keep this up!

Might have to look at some sort of a "retro fit" kit to help out some of the folks that have a different hitch setup. I sure hope this new way of doing business is only a fad and will be short lived. A tail wagging the dog situation is no fun going down the road from the drivers seat or the guys traveling the road behind you.

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Orca, are you sure you do not have your empty truck weights mixed up? Your front axle weight seems pretty low. In fact I think I have more weight on my vans front axle than that. If we use your empty rear weight for the front and the empty front weight for the rear that sounds more logical, but in any case you need to reweigh as Phoenix suggests to be able to calculate correctly.

 

Dave

2005 Freightliner Century S/T, Singled, Air ride ET Jr. hitch
2019 46'+ Dune Sport Man Cave custom 5th wheel toy hauler
Owner of the 1978 Custom Van "Star Dreamer" which might be seen at a local car show near you!

 

Check out http://www.hhrvresource.com/

for much more info on HDT's.

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Dave; You may very well be right! The scale ticket i got for the truck only, just has the weight in kgs printed on plain white paper. I just took for granted that the larger number was for the rear axle thinking that the rear deck and large axle housing would account for the weight. If the front is indeed heavier that would increase the pin weight percentage ....no? Unfortunately i can't verify until i get home next week.

2004 Freightliner m2 106  2015 DRV lx450 Fullhouse  2019 Indian Springfield 2014 Yamaha 950 V-Star

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Phoenix,

Good thing you already have a " head start" on that "floater" issue. Looks like you may have lots of new business coming your way if the trailer mfg's keep this up!

Might have to look at some sort of a "retro fit" kit to help out some of the folks that have a different hitch setup. I sure hope this new way of doing business is only a fad and will be short lived. A tail wagging the dog situation is no fun going down the road from the drivers seat or the guys traveling the road behind you.

Not sure I want to spread my wings that far, I'll stick to my own back yard. No question the big rigs (40 feet plus) from DRV are nice and they do interesting things with the extra lengths. They also put decent axles and tires on them and lots of other goodies. Outside of the custom guys (New Horizon, Forks and SpaceCraft) I haven't seen any other "mainstream" manufacturer, other than DRV, get into over 40 foot fifths. So I guess they must feel like they hit a mother lode. It could become a fad if others feel they they need to follow the suit to get a piece of that market. I've been all over their websites, brochures, etc. and it's like they want to keep any info pertaining to lengths vs. weight vs. pin weight a "big secret", GVWR is the only information they want to "share". I don't know if this tiny group of people "in the know" can have any real effect on this situation. As more and more people pull these, the lousy handling rigs could become the "new normal".

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Dave; You may very well be right! The scale ticket i got for the truck only, just has the weight in kgs printed on plain white paper. I just took for granted that the larger number was for the rear axle thinking that the rear deck and large axle housing would account for the weight. If the front is indeed heavier that would increase the pin weight percentage ....no? Unfortunately i can't verify until i get home next week.

You say weight for truck only was in KGS, was weight for truck and trailer in lbs or KGS? If in lbs then some additional math is needed as you need to make all the weights in either kilograms or pounds.

 

Is your truck bed a steel bed or an aluminum bed?

Dave

2005 Freightliner Century S/T, Singled, Air ride ET Jr. hitch
2019 46'+ Dune Sport Man Cave custom 5th wheel toy hauler
Owner of the 1978 Custom Van "Star Dreamer" which might be seen at a local car show near you!

 

Check out http://www.hhrvresource.com/

for much more info on HDT's.

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We hope to see some of the new DRVs three axles over our scales at the ECR so we should get some good niumbers

Bill and Joan and 3 Collie pups

2001 Volvo VNL 770 "The Doghouse" Singled short, "ET" hItch VED12 465HP Gen 1 Autoshift 3.58 ratio  2005 Mobile Suite 38RL3  2011 Smart Passion loaded piggybacK

Weigh-It Portable RV Scales http://www.weighitrv.com/

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Phoenix,

Good thing you already have a " head start" on that "floater" issue. Looks like you may have lots of new business coming your way if the trailer mfg's keep this up!

Might have to look at some sort of a "retro fit" kit to help out some of the folks that have a different hitch setup. I sure hope this new way of doing business is only a fad and will be short lived. A tail wagging the dog situation is no fun going down the road from the drivers seat or the guys traveling the road behind you.

Not sure I want to spread my wings that far, I'll stick to my own back yard. No question the big rigs (40 feet plus) from DRV are nice and they do interesting things with the extra lengths. They also put decent axles and tires on them and lots of other goodies. Outside of the custom guys (New Horizon, Forks and SpaceCraft) I haven't seen any other "mainstream" manufacturer, other than DRV, get into over 40 foot fifths. So I guess they must feel like they hit a mother lode. It could become a fad if others feel they they need to follow the suit to get a piece of that market. I've been all over their websites, brochures, etc. and it's like they want to keep any info pertaining to lengths vs. weight vs. pin weight a "big secret", GVWR is the only information they want to "share". I don't know if this tiny group of people "in the know" can have any real effect on this situation. As more and more people pull these, the lousy handling rigs could become the "new normal".

Hang in there with this iPad ....it thinks it knows what I want to say......how can it know what I don't know......

 

Anyhow......I cring at the thought meeting one of the balance-adverse-wrecks-about-to-happen .......these wiggle-rigs are screaming for help and IF the owner REALY understood what is in play I seriously doubt the he would move the rig at any speed or any distance......This is as serious as a heart attack.....

 

What is a "wiggle"?

 

In a nutshell a "wiggle" is a condition where dynamics are such that the "units" stability factors have become compromised by substantial adverse mass unbalance to the point that the dampening limits are near the critical limits of acceptable stability.....whew....

 

Here is the coming "heart attack", once the unit enters into the cycle of "wiggle-dynamics" you are now into the realm of "near excursion to loss of controllability........notice the word "near"..... The only thing keeping the unit from becoming totally-uncontrollable is the Limited forces of stability........at this point all it takes is a "Trigger-Event" (blowout, gusty cross wind, etc.) to overwhelm the stability factors and now my children you are hopelessly in "wreck dynamics"........

 

Unfortunately Henry is dead on the money in that there is limits to how much the hitch can do to mitigate problems far aft of the hitch pin.....the best hitch is not the problem or the solution to the problem......

 

Drive on........(Fix the wiggle or.....it might "fix you")

97 Freightshaker Century Cummins M11-370 / 1350 /10 spd / 3:08 /tandem/ 20ft Garage/ 30 ft Curtis Dune toybox with a removable horse-haul-module to transport Dolly-The-Painthorse to horse camps and trail heads all over the Western U S

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You say weight for truck only was in KGS, was weight for truck and trailer in lbs or KGS? If in lbs then some additional math is needed as you need to make all the weights in either kilograms or pounds.

 

Is your truck bed a steel bed or an aluminum bed?

Dave

Dave ; When i weighed the truck alone i did it at a scale in Canada and converted the numbers to lbs (there is an ap for that). The numbers for truck and trailer together i got at a CAT scale here in Texas and is in lbs.

 

The deck is aluminum over a steel frame.

 

I don't know if i am being overly concerned about the handling of this trailer because of my inexperience pulling something of this size or if if my worries are unfounded, but that's why this thread interested me.

2004 Freightliner m2 106  2015 DRV lx450 Fullhouse  2019 Indian Springfield 2014 Yamaha 950 V-Star

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Once we have confirmed numbers we can give you a better answer. But in general, on an MDT or HDT (that can take the weight) I consider around 23-25% pin weight to be ideal. Anything under 18% is pushing the bottom end to me. That is MY OPINION, based on experience. RVIA says 16% is the low end of 5th wheel pin weight. For what it is worth.

 

My personal opinion pulling such light pinned trailers is that they are OK in ideal conditions, but they can be a "handful" as soon as anything changes from the "ideal". Again, MY opinion, only. And it does vary somewhat based on WHAT you are pulling them with.

Jack & Danielle Mayer #60376 Lifetime Member
Living on the road since 2000

PLEASE no PM's. Email me. jackdanmayer AT gmail
2016 DRV Houston 44' 5er (we still have it)
2022 New Horizons 43' 5er
2016 Itasca 27N 28' motorhome 
2019 Volvo 860, D13 455/1850, 236" wb, I-Shift, battery-based APU
No truck at the moment - we use one of our demo units
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Dolly, you are spot on. These folks will be driving marginally balanced rigs one fart away from a ruined day. The reason I got into this in the first place was a panicked call from an owner of a brand new ET (I installed it) on his first trip, who upon going down the hill and putting brakes on got into "wiggle dynamics" and almost laid the rig on its side, but managed to save it. That got my attention, so I started to investigate. Turned out that this custom fifth (toy hauler) was built and balanced properly by the manufacturer, but was subsequently unbalanced after the fact by loading the garage with a heavy shop. Mind you that the pin weight was "only reduced" to 16.7% of the GVWR and that was low enough to induce "wiggle dynamics". If the numbers I am seeing on this thread on other rigs are accurate 16.7% is on the "high side". That should be concerning if not scary. That was before the last October Rally where I learned from another customer about his "floater" from DRV. In our impromptu meeting we had a meeting of the minds that perhaps we could implement a solutions, a prosthesis, or an aid to ameliorate a condition brought upon him and customers like him by the greed or stupidity of the current crop of the RV designers. But that's only my opinion and I'm sticking with it.

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