RV Dealer sued for false claims

[GlennWest]

Well seems my opuons on such matters hit a sour note here. I will just attempt to stay out of such matters in future.

[Daveh]

I didn't mean it like that Glenn. Just chatting. I am not usually a fan of law suits either.

[Jim Gell]

I assume the "elder abuse" factor affects the severity of the charge such as with a "hate crime". Maybe, there would first need to be an infraction or crime that would apply with a victim of any age, but if it was determined that the victim was elderly, the judge would have authority to sentence more severely. I have no information on this law, but it makes sense to me.

[remoandiris]

All of society benefited and costs were reduced as a result of those lawsuits.

 

Can you cite a source? All I hear on the news is how health costs have sky rocketed and continue to sky rocket unless you get a tax payer subsidy.

[Kirk W]

Every one is wrong. When my dad was 83 he was competent to make this decision and to drive that type of rig

Everyone? Now that is a pretty broad statement and should I assume that your the only one correct? And your fathers situation has what connection to the issue? I didn't think that he was a party to that suit.......

 

I am not a huge fan of the american legal system

While it isn't perfect, are you holding up yours as the model of perfection? The debate here isn't about whose country is best but rather about the validity of the suit and about responsibility of a seller and the customer.

[Daveh]

Can you cite a source? All I hear on the news is how health costs have sky rocketed and continue to sky rocket unless you get a tax payer subsidy.

No, I do not want to look up sources (I thought it was self evident). This is all kind of off topic anyway. Yes, health costs continue to rise but remember lung cancer is only a small portion of overall health costs. If you want more information look up the Master Tobacco Litigation Settlement. Some of the benefits I do not know how they would put a price on. What is the price you would place on a loved one getting an extra 20 years of life? What is it worth we never have sit in restaurants or other public spaces with someone else's smoke in our face?

[remoandiris]

No, I do not want to look up sources (I thought it was self evident). This is all kind of off topic anyway. Yes, health costs continue to rise but remember lung cancer is only a small portion of overall health costs. If you want more information look up the Master Tobacco Litigation Settlement. Some of the benefits I do not know how they would put a price on. What is the price you would place on a loved one getting an extra 20 years of life? What is it worth we never have sit in restaurants or other public spaces with someone else's smoke in our face?

 

No, it is not anywhere close to self evident. Only now do you narrow your statement to mean lung cancer. Broad statement with no factual support are opinions, not facts.

[Daveh]

okay

[bigjim]

I know a salesman is there to make sales but I can not help but believe there is at least a mandate to provide you with factual information as best they can about what they are selling IF YOU ASK . Would you deal with a sales person who could not answer any questions? Or at the very least to say I don't know if they cannot or are not willing to answer your question. Many people go to buy things they know very little about and may rely on the sales staff for knowledge or direction. I grant that is not the case more times than not. I try to learn what I can about what I need but to some degree at times that is not possible as much as I would wish. Now that we have the internet and can get much more information it makes it much easier to be informed. Still a good sales person can really help you and his employer. I think that still happens in many business' but less so in RV sales , auto sales and the like. If this salesman deliberatly gave them bogus information when they asked then I would say there should be culpability. There is culpability with the buyer also to some degree. In theory I would say the age factor should not be a consideration and it is just a part of a lawyer trying to win for his client which is his job.

[Daveh]

Upon being solicited for fraud, older respondents were 34 percent more likely to lose money than respondents in their forties

 

http://www.finrafoundation.org/web/groups/sai/@sai/documents/sai_original_content/p337731.pdf?utm_

[Ray,IN]

I recognize both sides of this discussion. I have seen published results of telephone scammers swindling old people out of thousands of dollars, been apprehended and required to refund the money + incur jail time.

Isn't this case similar in circumstances?

Speaking from experience, older people tend to trust others more than younger people do, I've lived on both sides of that experience.

 

OTOH, experience from selling/buying cattle taught me this; if you do not educate yourself about your business_you will get burned.

[Velos]

Thank goodness for the Internet where facts and figures can be just a "Google" away.

 

Many companies upload their sales brochures to the internet and vehicle information can be found on Edmonds and NADA to name a couple.

[Randyretired]

If it is proven that the salesman provided false information I can not help but to believe there is a liability. Volkswagen falsified information to sell cars and most feel that is wrong why wouldn't false statements to sell an RV also be wrong?

While most here are very familiar about the internet, a lot of elderly are not so familiar.

[NJTroy]

I think the age issue is a red herring here. While we all need to do our own research, if it can be proved that the dealership lied, then they have at least some liability.

 

I admit to being sensitive on this issue. I can't tell you how many times I've had someone in the auto or RV industry lie to my face. I'm lucky, my father was an auto mechanic and I was an engineer. I'm good at research and know enough to be dangerous in discussions like this. And even with that, I had a mechanic lie to me when I told him what was wrong. It put me in a situation that could have turned out very badly. I was so sure they were wrong that I made them put it in writing. They fixed it under warranty in the end, but that would have been small consolation if it had turned out differently.

[Kirk W]

There is a lot of distortion of facts commonly used in sales. All of us have seen the TV ads for burial insurance where the speaker states "Burial costs today can easily reach $5000 and the Social Security department only pays $250!" That is actually true, but it is designed to instill fear into seniors and to make them buy insurance that they may not need at all. Most of us here will laugh at the ridiculous advertisement but my mother was nearly suckered into it, even though she already had a prepaid burial plan, when she was in her 80's and in early stage dementia. It is a good example of sales efforts that are designed to prey on elderly people. There are many others and there are companies that make a lot of money in doing this, which is what has brought about laws in some states that are designed to protect the elderly. While I'm not so sure that I agree with the elderly side of this suit, there would seem to be some point at which a company should be held legally liable for statements of an employee when they are lies or perhaps even truth that is designed to mislead.

 

While I consider myself to be reasonably well informed on the RV buying subject, and still fairly mentally adept, I live in a retirement community and I have seen some of our neighbors become more susceptible to these efforts so I know that I am probably heading in that same direction. I can already tell that doing math in my head, which I was once known to be good at, has become more of an effort and more prone to errors. Just as our physical agility declines with age, so too do our mental abilities and in both cases it slows first, then begins to fade. This suit has two issues that I find of interest. One is the issue of taking advantage of the elderly and the other is that of lying to or intentionally misleading a potential customer. We don't really have enough information here to know just what the circumstances are, but I'd sure like to know more details of the case, as well as how the courts eventually rule. There is good reason that used car salesmen have such an ugly reputation and many of those guys also work in the RV sales industry.

[Kevin H]

Too bad becoming a participant on this forum is not mandatory prior to the first purchase. Fortunately for me, I found you guys a few years before we were ready to jump in. The knowledge I gained was priceless. I knew more about many of the products than many salesmen. No brag, just very fortunate fact.

Our first purchase was flawless and that rig served us perfectly for over six years. On the rare occasion we go to CW, I see people who obviously just bought a rig due to all the gadgets they bring to the counter. I'll ask if the got a new rig and invariably they excitedly say "Yes!". I have to bite my tongue rather than offer unsolicited suggestions that they can buy many items at Walmart way more cheaply. Others are unnecessary (my opinion): the world's most expensive "RV" toilet paper, tank chemicals, etc. Often times the salesman is helping them carry all the "necessary" stuff.

I do suggest they visit this forum every chance I get. Hopefully some do. We'll never know...

[bigjim]

I started out with and old trailer I paid $4k for from and individual. I knew nothing and he didn't know much more. I had a pretty stout 1/2 ton dodge and pulled it fairly easily on mostly flat ground around Dallas to where I parked. I knew right away I had an issue. I quickly bump up to a used 3/4Ton. I then had a equalizer hitch installed and I had to rely on the hitch place to steer me right as I knew nothing. I went to an independant who did a lot of business. He served me very well and did not cheat me. I actually found out how fair he had been later as I learned more and got more experience. Soooooo, guess who I would go back to or refer people to when I could. I would tell people my experience with them but say it never hurts to learn more in advance and watch the transaction as even an honest person can make an error or have an employee try something shady but will normally make it right. All this was well before I was able to even use a computer at all. (much like I still am )

[richfaa]

Falls into the category of "It pulls it fine" post we see all the time on Rv forums . We sold Rv's at large RV shows for several

years and the person with the least knowledge about Rv's is the buyer.

[Kevin H]

Falls into the category of "It pulls it fine" post we see all the time on Rv forums . We sold Rv's at large RV shows for several

years and the person with the least knowledge about Rv's is the buyer.

 

What responses did you get from buyers when you told them their truck could not safely handle the weight of a given trailer? I ask because I am suspicious that excited, inexperienced and uneducated buyers would ignore such advice.

[bigjim]

If I am talking to sales about rv's I have some key questions I will ask to "test" their honesty and knowledge. One is of course, "what size truck will it take to tow this or what is the carrying and or towing capacity of a motorhome." I don't know doesn't necessarily disqualify them. But an obvious lie or deceptive answer really rings my bell. Another one about motorhomes is about the necessity of auxillary braking on the toad. I have usually researched the answer but I automatically consider an immediate "it is not required" is a big disqualifier. I have been known to ask for someone more knowledgeable. Tends to get the sales managers attention

[richfaa]

What responses did you get from buyers when you told them their truck could not safely handle the weight of a given trailer? I ask because I am suspicious that excited, inexperienced and uneducated buyers would ignore such advice.

The most common reply is... well the salesperson one isle over told me my truck was OK or you are just trying to sell me a new

truck. We always had the spec sheets with us but they normally did little good.

 

Our best customer was the person who knew about Rv's and truck spec's and was the person most likely to purchase.

[whj469]

I don't see any difference between a lie and a lie by omission. The SS death benefit is $255

and of late I have not seen many funerals that are at $5,000, more like $8,000 $10,000.

[richfaa]

I don't see any difference between a lie and a lie by omission. The SS death benefit is $255

and of late I have not seen many funerals that are at $5,000, more like $8,000 $10,000.

it has nothing to do with the cost of a funeral....... "Program Description

A surviving spouse or child may receive a special lump-sum death payment of $255 if they meet certain requirements.

 

Generally, the lump-sum is paid to the surviving spouse who was living in the same household with the worker when he or she died. If they were living apart, the surviving spouse can still receive the lump-sum if, during the month the worker died, he or she: •was already receiving benefits on the worker's record; or

•became eligible for benefits upon the worker's death.

If there's no eligible surviving spouse, the lump-sum can be paid to the worker's child (or children) if, during the month the worker died, the child: •was already receiving benefits on the worker's record; or

•became eligible for benefits upon the worker's death.

[Pat & Pete]

I must have missed something . How did this go from trucks and trailers to SS death benefits ?

[Kirk W]

I don't see any difference between a lie and a lie by omission. The SS death benefit is $255

and of late I have not seen many funerals that are at $5,000, more like $8,000 $10,000.

My point seems to have been missed. It is true that SS does pay a 1 time death benefit of $255 but that has little to do with the cost of burial. Those ads are made in an effort to cause fear in the elderly that a funeral will eat up all of their assets and if that is true, then the person can't afford premium on the insurance that they are selling either. While it doesn't actually lie, it does show a lack of ethics. The example is one of trying to use emotions to sell insurance rather than facts, which is just what RV sales people often try to do. Many times they do that for two reasons, 1) most people are more easily sold when running on emotions because they don't examine the facts, 2) many of the sales people don't know enough about the facts to be able to use them to sell. Those are the same sales people who typically lie to customers and say anything that they believe will help to make a sale.

 

If you want a sales person who knows his product and deals well with customers, look for one that has many years at the same dealership. Before I retired there was a study of commissioned sales published which showed that nearly 80% of the large item sales are made by about 20% of the sales force. Sales people who have bad practices usually move around a lot because after you lie to or mistreat so many people, customers stop coming to you and you either get fired or move to new territory where your lies are not yet known.

 

But in the case before the courts, we don't really know for sure if the sales person actually did what they are accused of doing. And many times when sales people do use lies to sell, it is nearly impossible to prove later just what the person actually said to their customer. And there are also times when a customer misunderstands what was said to them. Those are things which this trial should bring out.