A different way to talk about fulltime expenses

[sushidog]

For us right now, and believe me it took us a long long time to pull the range together, from info shared by others gone before us, we know where our budget per month needs to be to hit the road how we envision we'd like to live and travel, in today's dollars. However, what we don't know is typically what percentage should we be increasing this each year or every three years as costs change. Wish we could live on what we did just 3 to 5 years ago today, our house insurance went up over 70% in just one year over year for heavens sake, and we haven't ever had a claim!

 

Just saying FWIW

I really don't think it's possible to plan for future inflation as it is entirely unpredictable. If the dollar loses its status as the worlds reserve currency (as it's soon predicted to do to be replaced by a basket of currencies) and we (as a nation) continue to spend as we have historically, then hyper-inflation is not only a possibility, but a virtual certainty. This will eradicate your savings, retirement accounts, etc. causing a societal collapse s it did in these 58 countries. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/88/The_Hanke_Krus_Hyperinflation_Table.pdf There is nothing we can do to prepare for this, other than to hedge your bets with precious metals (which will likely be confiscated, and trade in them made illegal) If this doesn't happen, and we only experience the "normal" double digit inflation we had in the 80's then it might be possible for wealthy folk to survive this period with some assets intact. If the worse happens and we are a victim of war, terrorism, disease, etc. then it's the survivalists who've got it right. Your ability to feed, clothe, shelter and defend yourself will be all we have left. Forming small communities of like minded individuals will be the best chance for any of us to survive. Sorry for the doom and gloom, but this is why I really try not to worry about things which I have no control over, regardless how likely or unlikely you may believe these possible futures to be.

 

Chip

[Jack Mayer]

Chip, with all due respect, I also tend to disagree with your comment that "people will always spend what they have", assuming you are referencing spending not saving a portion of that. If we all did that living paycheque to paycheque, then none of us would have accumulated any savings towards our retirements, and quite clearly whilst not all do by any means, several do so to enable for them to go on the road in the first place.

 

 

 

Likewise Jack, you've been FTing for quite some time. Can you generally comment what you've seen as an annual average increase to your expenses percentage wise, without adding any capital purchases/change over the years. I appreciate that I can look at general inflation rates, but they are really not FT RVing lifestyle wise specific which would be the minority in such a broad group. I do think that this type of information would help many others besides myself.

 

 

I also agree that there are people that do not even come close to spending "what they have". We are one of them. We have never spent "what we have" all our lives. When our friends were buying "McMansions" we lived in our modest 2400 sq ft. home that we both rebuilt from the ground up. We saved our money and never lived anywhere close to our salaries or income.

 

We have been fulltiming for 15 years. I just looked at Quicken. Our lowest year of expenses (living costs) was $22,380. Our highest year was $30,847. This year will likely break that at the rate we are going. That does NOT INCLUDE any of our RVs, so take that into account. It does include everything else, including our Jeep, our smart, insurance,etc. But not our truck and trailer. We know we "could" live on $1800/month if we HAD to. But it would not be "pleasant" for US.

[skp51443]

We never could understand spending money just because you have it, we spend what we need to live comfortably. If we hadn't been doing that since our first jobs we'd never been able to retire young and exit the rat race.

[GR "Scott" Cundiff]

I think the idea was that people who have more money tend to spend more money - not that they work at draining the bank account.

 

Once we retired though, we topped the hill. The way we "save" now is by taking less out than we could.

[Mariner]

How much is needed to live on. I guess it.......... DEPENDS. Do you like PP&J, or filet mignon, or something in the middle. Before we went fulltime, I had an amount in mind to have at my disposal every month, without any major bills(RV & car paid for). Only monthly requirements are for healthcare, that includes long term care, cell phone, money set aside each month for yearly maint., and vehicle insurances. The bills I can control are fuel, how many miles are we traveling, camping fees, entertainment, and to some extent groceries. Now the amount I have is higher than the $41K mentioned earlier, it's $5K a month in expendable income. BUT in over 5yrs. of fulltiming we've NEVER spent that much, nor do we ever intend to. Obviously we can afford to stay at high end so called resorts, but choose not to do so. I'm like Jack it pains me to stay anywhere that charges $40 per night. I've always known there will be a life after fulltiming, so I've planned accordingly with monthly savings. I don't need the latest gadget, but I will admit we put a Trav'ler sat. system on the coach recently, but it was a used one. We don't keep a spread sheet on every little expense, but if I was to hazard a guess, I would say we do just fine on approx. $30-$35k per year.

[sushidog]

I would say we do just fine on approx. $30-$35k per year.

Good to hear, Mariner, as $30k is my projected FT income. I consider setting money aside for planned vehicle maintenance and repairs, insurance, registration, upgrades, and possibly even a new vehicle/camper for when mine wears out to be an expense. I consider money saved for these things as being spent, as it has a dedicated purpose. Similarly, if one pays cash for their vehicle/RV and deposits money every month equivalent to a vehicle payment (as if they ere paying others) then in a few years, when their vehicle wears out, there will be sufficient funds for a new (or new to you) one - but not if you are still paying on your rig (and paying outrageous interest) when it finally bites the dust. I look at paying interest as wasted money, as my money could not earn near the return I must pay others to use theirs. Besides, I can use this savings to occasionally upgrade my meals from the proverbial ramen noodle or BP&J sandwich lunch to a sushi lunch (my favorite), spending money on what I want to, rather than on what I have to. Life is short.

 

FT RVing is my exit strategy. If I live long enough that I am no longer able to drive, I will park it in our most favorite spot we discovered in our life on the road. When the time comes that I can no longer care for myself I hope to have the courage and presence of mind to remove this burden from others. I think a swan dive off a tall bridge or beautiful cliff at sunset would be a good way to turn off the lights and go boldly into that good night, embracing the inevitable that becons to us all.

 

Chip

[whj469]

I have heard gloom and doom since I was a young man and now that I am an old man and look back none it ever came to pass, none!

I refuse to spend one second worrying about what I have no control of. I have saved and invested well and that is about all that I can do.

Good Luck

[wa_desert_rat]

I have heard gloom and doom since I was a young man and now that I am an old man and look back none it ever came to pass, none!

I refuse to spend one second worrying about what I have no control of. I have saved and invested well and that is about all that I can do.

Good Luck

Our Goodwill store, where I used to buy lots of books before Kindle, had shelves full of "The Coming Crash of the 90s" and the doom of the 70s. But, oddly enough, none of them predicted 2008.

 

I've lived in countries where they had hyper inflation. The trick was to spend your money as soon as you got it because you'd need twice that in a week to buy the same things.

 

WDR

[sushidog]

I have heard gloom and doom since I was a young man and now that I am an old man and look back none it ever came to pass, none!

I refuse to spend one second worrying about what I have no control of. I have saved and invested well and that is about all that I can do.

Good Luck

You mean it hasn't come to pass in this country. I just listed 58 countries where their currency has hyperinflated and their citizen's savings and retirement was made totally worthless. I'm sure the people in Germany before the Weimar Republic felt similarly, before their money hyperinflated 29,500% in a single month back in 1923! Too long ago to be considered relevant? How about the Russians who's money hyperinflated 245%/month in 1992? They still haven't fully recovered, have they? Or how about as recently as 2008 in Zimbabwe where their prices doubled nearly every single day, making any savings they had worth literally 1/2 as much as it was the previous day! Still think even a tiny fraction of that couldn't happen here" As that is all it would take to devastate your retirement. You might want to think about diversifying some of your investments, not having it all tied up in the dollar. Real estate and precious metals come to mind, but at least a little storable food, if nothing else.

 

If nothing happens you might lose a little interest, at worst. If the worst happens you might save almost everything, including your life. I don't worry about the future, but I do try to plan for an uncertain future as best I can. An efficient (12mpg or so) fully solar equipped boondocking rig and a pair of low maintenance, high MPG motorbikes fits within those plans, as it will allow us to live as economically and sustainably as possible if bad things do happen. I've found that reality always lies somewhere between the best and worst of possible scenarios. What do you think a WMD like a terrorist dirty bomb, a chemical or biological attack, or God forbid, a nuclear device in downtown NYC, Chicago, LA, DC or all of the above would do to our economy?

 

When I was young, my first job (as a fuel injection mechanic's helper) paid min wage (like most people) which was $1.47/hr. at the time. Sounds low? Actually it was high compared to today's min. wage because of inflation or the devaluation of the dollar. Back then I got paid every other week. After taxes I took home about $99 for 80 hours of work. Gold was $33/oz. back then. If I went to the bank and traded my paycheck for gold, I could have purchased 3 ounces of gold with my paycheck.

 

Today, the price of Gold is about $1,200/oz. Actually that's a backwards way of looking at it. In reality the value of a dollar is 1/1,200 an ounce of gold. If employers today paid their min wage employees 3 ounces of gold for 2 weeks (80 hrs) work (the same as min. wage earners were making then) they would be making $3,600 per check or $45/hr after taxes. Today, after college, a stint as an Army officer, and a lifetime of progressive management experience, I'm now a mid-level corporate manager, responsible for about 50 managers and hundreds of employees. Yet I don't make 1/2 of a min wage earner of the late 60's, based on the real value of the dollar in gold. Remember, the true value of gold doesn't change. It's a constant. It's the value of the dollar that changes over time. So when they say gold is up, it's really that the dollar is down and vica versa.

 

So I contend that doom and gloom has already come to pass here, just so slowly that no one notices, because of the advances in technology that allow our virtually worthless dollar to stretch so far, as we are about a hundred times more efficient than we were back then, building things for practically nothing that we never could have dreamed of at the time (except possibly in Star Trek). Imagine what we could buy with our dollars if they really were worth something.

 

Chip

[richfaa]

retired household: about $41K. "? We are a retired Household and a Long timer Rv'er. We spend 7 to 9 months living and traveling in our RV.We chose to keep our S &B.

 

We keep finanical record in quicken and know exactly how much we spend per year.

 

We come in under that number including all Rv and S &B expense.I would not consider us frugal or big spenders. We know full t imers that live on much less than that as well as retired house holders that live on much less than tht.

[GR "Scott" Cundiff]

retired household: about $41K. "? We are a retired Household and a Long timer Rv'er. We spend 7 to 9 months living and traveling in our RV.We chose to keep our S &B.

 

We keep finanical record in quicken and know exactly how much we spend per year.

 

We come in under that number including all Rv and S &B expense.I would not consider us frugal or big spenders. We know full t imers that live on much less than that as well as retired house holders that live on much less than tht.

 

I've tried to find a weighted average for retired households but with no luck. If we conclude that those spending over $41K are spending a lot more but are fewer in number then the number of people spending less than $41K would be greater than the number spending more.

 

However, as I said in the opening post and has been reflected in numbers several who have responded here, the $41K ($3417 a month) figure is actually in the right ballpark. The number might adjust down a bit if we think the weighted average would impact the numbers and it might come down some if we think the average fulltimer tends to be below the national average but if it does come down I don't think it would be more than a few hundred a month.

[rv-voyager]

Think about the future Rvers who are posting the question. They either want to travel on a limited budget and want to know if is possible to travel on limited budget. They may have lost their job or forced into retirement because of medical disability. An average income provides no information on their situation. It does not give them any information on how they can achieve their travel on a limited budget. That is why we are posting our budget goal on our blog. There any many of Rvers that are doing on a small budget then ours. We could also but that is not our objective. Our current budget is $55.00 per day for an annual total of $19,800, on 41K budget we would have spend $112.00 per day.

[whj469]

If you call this gloom and doom, I don't, I am better off now then anytime in my life. I started at $1.15 per hour and now make over $130,000 per year.

I am the CEO of a company with over 300 employees, own a small cattle ranch and have no debt. I wouldn't even consider gold, gold is speculation in a commodity

and not an investment. I didn't buy any at $32 an oz and I didn't buy any at $1,200 an oz and I don't even own any gold. I would hardly compare some third world nation with the US.

[richfaa]

We never bought any Gold. My worthless Dollar buys what we need.Working at Disney world and coming into contact with folks from all over the world I note they sure like our worthless dollar more than they like their currency.

 

Usually the first question they ask are directions to Best Buy, Wall Mart,old Navy and "The mall" They love malls.

 

We are also better off now than any time in our lives.We have more "disposable income" than we ever had.

 

We have been reading about the financial crisis that is coming in the next 3 months and buy my book to avoid it on face book for the last year.

 

We could live on less but ....we won't.

[sushidog]

If you call this gloom and doom, I don't, I am better off now then anytime in my life. I started at $1.15 per hour and now make over $130,000 per year.

I am the CEO of a company with over 300 employees, own a small cattle ranch and have no debt. I wouldn't even consider gold, gold is speculation in a commodity

and not an investment. I didn't buy any at $32 an oz and I didn't buy any at $1,200 an oz and I don't even own any gold. I would hardly compare some third world nation with the US.

The Soviet Union was a third world nation? News to me.

 

You're doing great, testimony to your hard work. But tell me, what would you do if they raised the property taxes on your ranch 1,000% in one year like they did me? Land is not such a great asset as it makes you a target of your government for yearly taxation on its supposed appreciated value. I lost my home because of it. They said my land was worth $110,000 an acre and sent me the bill (not the house, just the raw land - I don't want to tell you how much they said my 40 year old humble home was worth). Sure I contested it, but it was pay-up or lose it. What would you do if they added a zero on the end of your tax bill? Say it can't happen? Well it happened to me so it can happen to you too. And if you pick up your rifle in protest, like I was temped to do, they will take your life as well as your land.

 

I'm not trying to tell you what to do. You're a grown man and can decide for yourself what's in your best interests, but to be forewarned is forearmed. Just remember, unlike precious metals, you can't put your buildings, land or cattle in your pocket, to avoid the tax man, can you? I agree with you, Gold is not an investment - just an insurance policy. You insure other areas of your life, why not your savings?

 

Chip

[richfaa]

But tell me, what would you do if they raised the property taxes on your ranch 1,000% in one year like they did me?

 

Out of the blue with no warning taxes raised by 1000%.I do not blame you for the doom and Gloom and buying Gold.That is a horrible injustice.

[sandsys]

 

Linda, I don't remember you being one of the "it depends" folks??

I've said "it depends" about a lot of things here. When it comes to finances I often say expect to spend what you are used to spending because we just replace one type of housing expense (property tax?) with a different type of housing expense (fuel to move it?) but we still eat out about as often.

 

Linda Sand

[sushidog]

But tell me, what would you do if they raised the property taxes on your ranch 1,000% in one year like they did me?

 

Out of the blue with no warning taxes raised by 1000%.I do not blame you for the doom and Gloom and buying Gold.That is a horrible injustice.

After Hurricane Katrina many people moved away so the tax base collapsed. My DW and many other residents lost their jobs as businesses closed from lack of revenue. The parish government wanted to remain as big as ever inspite of a severe loss of revenue. First they tried to raise the millage rate, which the voters rejected (we were all trying to recover from the personal devastation of Katrina too) so they simply sent out "assessors" - basically kids with tape measures and jacked up everyone's property taxes by appraising everyone's property at twice market value. Since the homestead exemption covers the first $75K of home value, going from an appraisal of say $95K and paying property taxes on $20K/yr net (about $500/yr) they raised the appraisal to $275K, so now $200k is taxable at ($5,000/yr.) This also meant an equal tax rate increase in municipal taxes for another $1,000/yr. This is the method they used to get a 1,000% tax increase by only doubling the appraised value. Bankruptcy rates soared, but they didn't care cause they got their money. I don't know any of my neighbors who received less than a 500% tax increase.

 

This is why I chose to forgo land ownership in the future and become a FT RV nomad. If the state of TX succeeds in doubling their RV registration fees, as they propose, then I can simply drive to another state and declare domicile there. You can't dig up your land and move to a neighboring state - or even to the next county if they double your S&B property taxes, can you?

 

To the Linda's fuel expense issue, at least fuel is a controllable cost, while your property tax and homeowner's insurance (mine also doubled after Katrina, BTW) is not. If you can't afford a big fuel bill you simply move less, enjoying the area you are in a little longer. Some use an economical high MPG toad for around town tasks, while I bought a pair of 100 MPG motorbikes for local travels, quick trips to the store, etc.. I also chose a relatively good fuel mileage TV (a 3/4 ton diesel that gets 17-19 MPG around town and low to mid 20's on the highway - and should return around 12 MPG while towing my planned FT TT) to help me conserve my fuel budget. I also plan on boondocking a lot with a big solar system to allow me to stay out of RV parks more (saving CG fees and electric costs). I've also found many RV parks in the TX RGV and desert southwest with very reasonable rates, for peak heat and cold seasons when boondocking is uncomfortable and FHUs are more of a necessity - many under $350/month (+ electric) some under $200/mo,(that's less than my homeowner's insurance in my S&B, not to mention my outrageous property taxes)! Plus I'm saving garbage pick-up fees, yard maintenance fees, cable TV fees, Internet and phone line access, house maintenance, repairs and insurance (true, the RV has maintenance, repair and insurance costs, but they are much less than in a S&B . And when a hurricane comes through you don't have to evacuate your home, and hope and pray there will be something left of it when you return. You have the peace of mind knowing that you can just hitch up to it and take it with you when you leave - much less stress and expense of loosing all your worldly goods. FT RVing can be done as expensively or inexpensively as you want to make it. When you're in an RV the world (or at least North America) is your oyster and if life serves up lemons, just squeeze it on your oyster and enjoy!

 

Chip

[richfaa]

I get it. We were through that area not long after Katrina and saw the devastation. What you are doing is understandable under your circumstances but I would say that your circumstances are the exception and not the rule.

 

 

What I mean is I would not do what you are doing because that happend to you but it was a reasonable choice for you.

[whj469]

Gold is not an insurance policy and it is only worth what someone will pay you for it.

There are parts of this country were real estate taxes are very high. In Texas real estate taxes are very low for Ag

land. I live in a very modest home that is paid for and my tax burden is low. I have friends in up state NY that pay in excess of $10,000

per year for real estate taxes.

[wa_desert_rat]

Local governments will screw you faster than the Feds or the State government agencies can because there is often no oversight at all; often not even an auditor. And the person responsible for keeping them legal gets fired if he/she interferes too much; and they know it. When the only remedy is litigation they know that they can get away with whatever. And a local police chief who owes his/her job to the town council or mayor or city manager is also in a tricky spot.

 

I've been through that wringer myself but nothing as bad as Chip. Just a good lesson for all of us.

 

WDR

[skp51443]

Valuable property is just a stroke of the pen away from becoming a white elephant, either rezoning or land use laws can take your property investments that are going to support your retirement and turn them into zip.

[sushidog]

Or they can take land traditionally used for agriculture, rezone it for residential/multi-use, (or commercial use as they did mine) have a developer buy some neighboring land to put in a sub-division or a business and quintuple your tax bill. But you try to sell the land for its supposed tax value and see what kind of offers you get. Plus if your family is in politics and your opponent gets in office they will sometimes seek political retribution, hurting their opponents financially to weaken and discourage any future challenges. Dirty pool? Certainly, but that's the way the game is played. At least that's the way it is played here in Louisiana. Capiche?

 

Chip

[richfaa]

I understand the zoning thing.We had a issue some years ago in our city were they wanted to change the zoning to Commercial,.Industrial and the argument was that would reduce property values.It did not happen in this case.

 

I get a clearer picture of the circumstances in your case.

 

We had some experience with zoning boards some years ago and understand how it can work.

[sandsys]

I just saw an interesting photo of a lake that is nearly dried up; wonder what those folks paid for their "lakefront" property?

 

Linda Sand