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question about coyotes

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52 minutes ago, Al F said:

Would that be a healthy horse w/o any extenuating circumstances (deep snow)?    Any details on how the coyotes got the horse down on the ground and/or other details on how the coyotes accomplished the task.  I have heard of wolfs taking down horse sized weak animals, but it would be really rare for wolfs to take down a horse sized healthy elk, moose, etc, and wolfs are much larger than a coyote.  

No Snow----right after that and same area -don't know how many Cancorssa dog or dogs (can't spell) killed a woman hiker. Owners went to prison. Enough of anything can kill anything. Never met anyone that liked a Wolf. Been too Alaska-Yukon-British Columbia-Northwest Territories-Alberta-and people in Michigan big time.

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On ‎12‎/‎18‎/‎2014 at 10:38 AM, Daveh said:

I find it strange also. I live in SW Mich and I know we have coyotes here but I have never seen

one. I see a fox every once in a while. But no coyotes and certainly no attacks on pets.

My son in law just made the comment this week he has enough pelts for a coat,  hat and fur boots. He's in sw mi. I am in the thumb and see and here them quite often. People always on facebook looking for hunters after seeing them in their yards.

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The Michigan DNR fully investigated that alleged coyote----horse killing and said it absolutely DID NOT HAPPEN.   So like I said get hobbies. If you afraid of wildlife-don't fulltime.  I fulltime to be near nature---not kill it. 

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3 minutes ago, Daveh said:

The Michigan DNR fully investigated that alleged coyote----horse killing and said it absolutely DID NOT HAPPEN.   So like I said get hobbies. If you afraid of wildlife-don't fulltime.  I fulltime to be near nature---not kill it. 

Hunting is a legitimate hobby.  It's seems pretty obnoxious of you to tell people what they should and shouldn't be doing.  And I'm not a hunter.  Have no interest in killing or eating wild animals.  But reading your posts makes me want to go coyote hunting.  Maybe dial it down a bit?

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12 hours ago, beemergary said:

No Snow----right after that and same area -don't know how many Cancorssa dog or dogs (can't spell) killed a woman hiker. Owners went to prison. Enough of anything can kill anything. Never met anyone that liked a Wolf. Been too Alaska-Yukon-British Columbia-Northwest Territories-Alberta-and people in Michigan big time.

Lets don't confuse dogs and coyotes.  Dogs, especially large aggressive pet dogs, are much larger and dangerous then coyotes.  Large dogs at 60-100 pounds weight 2-3 times as much as coyotes at about 30-40 pounds.  

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Well, like I asked, "Where are the details about the coyotes taking down a horse?"  NONE to be found so far.  I guess I must accept the reply from an none hunter that according to the MI DNR that it never happened. 

Fake News I guess about coyotes killing a horse. :)

Anyone want to supply credible news reports that it really happened???

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Well, I found two reports that do appear to be credible:

http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/index.ssf/2015/01/dnr_wildlife_technician_offers.html

http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/index.ssf/2015/01/coyotes_attack_kill_horse_from.html

Extenuating circumstances.  Winter time, Jan 25th, very hungry coyotes.  Horse was 20 years old.  Health and strength of the horse was not detailed. 

However the coyotes didn't get much for their efforts.  The horse owners dogs chased off the coyotes.  The poor horse apparently died later from her wounds. 

No details on just why the horse didn't fight back more, or just how 5-6 coyotes took down the horse and what they did to so quickly injure the horse enough for it to die later.  The only thing I can think of that a 30 pound dog like animal could do to a large horse, would be to rip open the neck. 

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A full grown male coyote here can weigh upwards of 100 lb. About the same as an average grey wolf. Coyotes are not nearly as regimented as wolves or nearly as good at killing large animals. They kill dogs and cats to protect territory and Ive never seen coyotes eat either cat or dog, but lots of kills.

Lsat winter a coyote snatched the mitten from a 10 yr. old girl waiting for the school bus. That was 7 miles from our house.

It would be highly unlikely that yotes would kill a horse without extenuating circumstance, like deep snow, mobility etc but could happen sure enough.

I had a trapline for nearly 30 yr. and worked in predator control several seasons and found coyotes to be mostly lazy animals eating carrion, small rabbits and duck eggs or baby ducks. They were smart enough not to take on a Canada goose.

They are hard on the deer population as well killing newborns in spring and older deer in the deep snow

Edited by Little

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1 hour ago, Al F said:

Well, I found two reports that do appear to be credible:

http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/index.ssf/2015/01/dnr_wildlife_technician_offers.html

http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/index.ssf/2015/01/coyotes_attack_kill_horse_from.html

Extenuating circumstances.  Winter time, Jan 25th, very hungry coyotes.  Horse was 20 years old.  Health and strength of the horse was not detailed. 

However the coyotes didn't get much for their efforts.  The horse owners dogs chased off the coyotes.  The poor horse apparently died later from her wounds. 

No details on just why the horse didn't fight back more, or just how 5-6 coyotes took down the horse and what they did to so quickly injure the horse enough for it to die later.  The only thing I can think of that a 30 pound dog like animal could do to a large horse, would be to rip open the neck. 

HI Al. Those are the initial stories and they gained a lot of press and credibility due to the sensational nature of the story and the horse owners were volunteers (for horse work) with the local Sheriff's office. The DNR did conduct an investigation that concluded the following February.    https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/oakland/2015/02/13/coyote-horse-oxford-township/23342091/

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11 hours ago, oldbutspry said:

Hunting is a legitimate hobby.  It's seems pretty obnoxious of you to tell people what they should and shouldn't be doing.  And I'm not a hunter.  Have no interest in killing or eating wild animals.  But reading your posts makes me want to go coyote hunting.  Maybe dial it down a bit?

Ha. Yes, I should dial it down and I will get off my pulpit.  I am not against hunting for food (although I don't because of grocery stores) and I don't expect people not to defend themselves, but I do get riled up when folks come across as enjoying killing things or when they do so out of unfounded fear. This whole thread really seems to sensationalize the danger of coyotes and that leads to the unnessesary anxiety of people out in nature and the death of wildlife.            Reminds me of rattlesnakes here in Arizona. If you look at the statistics the vast majority of people that get bit are trying to kill or handle the snake. Just leave stuff alone.   

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8 hours ago, Little said:

A full grown male coyote here can weigh upwards of 100 lb. About the same as an average grey wolf. Coyotes are not nearly as regimented as wolves or nearly as good at killing large animals. They kill dogs and cats to protect territory and Ive never seen coyotes eat either cat or dog, but lots of kills.

Lsat winter a coyote snatched the mitten from a 10 yr. old girl waiting for the school bus. That was 7 miles from our house.

It would be highly unlikely that yotes would kill a horse without extenuating circumstance, like deep snow, mobility etc but could happen sure enough.

I had a trapline for nearly 30 yr. and worked in predator control several seasons and found coyotes to be mostly lazy animals eating carrion, small rabbits and duck eggs or baby ducks. They were smart enough not to take on a Canada goose.

They are hard on the deer population as well killing newborns in spring and older deer in the deep snow

Wikipedia disagrees with you.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coyote    They show no more than 44 pounds for a male & 40 for a female.  Not that an exceptional male couldn't weigh 50 pounds.  But 100 pounds, no way.

Do you have some references for the 100 pounds plus????

I totally agree with the coyote being an opportunistic hunter.  On top of that they will eat anything editable, just like humans. 

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7 hours ago, Daveh said:

 

HI Al. Those are the initial stories and they gained a lot of press and credibility due to the sensational nature of the story and the horse owners were volunteers (for horse work) with the local Sheriff's office. The DNR did conduct an investigation that concluded the following February.    https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/oakland/2015/02/13/coyote-horse-oxford-township/23342091/

Thanks for the link.  Makes more sense to me than 30-40 pound dog like animals taking down a healthy horse. 

Now a sick and weak horse being nipped at the legs and after some time exhausting the horse and damaging ligaments could cause the horse to go to the ground, sure I could see that happen. 

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1 hour ago, Al F said:

Wikipedia disagrees with you.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coyote    They show no more than 44 pounds for a male & 40 for a female.  Not that an exceptional male couldn't weigh 50 pounds.  But 100 pounds, no way.

Do you have some references for the 100 pounds plus????

I totally agree with the coyote being an opportunistic hunter.  On top of that they will eat anything editable, just like humans. 

44 lb would be a damn small coyote around here. AZ coyotes are 35-40 lb. and they could hide behind a "northern' coyote. Somewhere in my drawer of photos I have a pic of a 100 lb. coyote we trapped near Tyvan SK. in about 1980. AZ coyotes aren't worth  much in the fur market but we have fetched more than $125 for northerns recently. Even in the depressed market pelts are still fetching $45-$55. I am assuming Wikipedia contributors aren't familiar with the coyotes of the north

Not to be an ass but I would suggest that my family has seen over 3000 coyotes in the last 40 yr. and there is quite a difference between the northerns and an average 'yote. We used to sell at auction in the US and our pelts fetched 2x the average plains price. This was due to size as well as fur quality. -30 degrees makes for good pelts.

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Live Science

Quote

Size

Coyotes are about as big as medium-size dogs, though they are smaller than wolves. They are 32 to 37 inches (81 to 94 centimeters) from head to rump, according to National Geographic. Their tail adds another 16 inches (41 cm) to their length. Coyotes typically weigh about 20 to 50 lbs. (9 to 23 kilograms).

1

As the Wyoming  Game & Fish says, coyotes can and do cross with dogs and that sometimes brings larger versions into existence. But such hybrids are nearly always sterile this has no lasting impact on size. 

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48 minutes ago, Little said:

44 lb would be a damn small coyote around here. AZ coyotes are 35-40 lb. and they could hide behind a "northern' coyote. Somewhere in my drawer of photos I have a pic of a 100 lb. coyote we trapped near Tyvan SK. in about 1980. AZ coyotes aren't worth  much in the fur market but we have fetched more than $125 for northerns recently. Even in the depressed market pelts are still fetching $45-$55. I am assuming Wikipedia contributors aren't familiar with the coyotes of the north

Not to be an ass but I would suggest that my family has seen over 3000 coyotes in the last 40 yr. and there is quite a difference between the northerns and an average 'yote. We used to sell at auction in the US and our pelts fetched 2x the average plains price. This was due to size as well as fur quality. -30 degrees makes for good pelts.

Little, I am sorry but the Arizona game department says the Arizona coyote weighs 20-35 lbs.  The respected Sonoran desert museum says they weigh 15-25 lbs.    I owned a standard schnauzer that, unfortunately, killed two coyotes.   They just aren't that big.      As the Michigan DNR says "The size and weight of coyotes are commonly overestimated, because their long fur masks a bone structure that is slighter than that of most domestic dogs."  While it is true the eastern coyote ranges about 5-10 lbs more, they don't hunt 15,00-2,000 lb horses. 

http://www.azgfd.gov/w_c/es/wolf_difference.shtml  http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,4570,7-153-10370_12145_12205-60378--,00.html

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2 hours ago, Al F said:

Thanks for the link.  Makes more sense to me than 30-40 pound dog like animals taking down a healthy horse. 

Now a sick and weak horse being nipped at the legs and after some time exhausting the horse and damaging ligaments could cause the horse to go to the ground, sure I could see that happen. 

I agree Al. It sounds like they couldn't do a good autopsy on the horse because it already had been buried.  I suspect for some reason the horse was down and the noise the owners heard was the sound of a hysterical injured horse and a standoff between the farm dogs and the coyotes that came in to take a look. If you read about wolf pack hunting habits you learn that even they are reluctant to go after big game unless they absolutely have no choice. One broken bone is a death sentence for these animals and they do not thrill kill or take unnecessary risks. Wolves hunting habits have been studied closely because western ranchers have accused them of thrill killling livestock. Researchers find however that packs do not want to take unnecessary risks. 

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I have never seen a 20 lb. adult coyote. Maybe a poodle cross??

 

Also, wife suggested that coyotes will run a larger animal in a circle, switching off so the  notes remain somewhat fresh. This would bring some credence to the horse story. They would hamstring a large animal.  I doubt they would take on a healthy horse but strange things happen.

i just told my grandson (who operates our line now) that coyotes only weigh 20 lb.  His comment was 'you must be on Facebook' We don't normally weigh any animals we take as nothing sells by the lb. , however as said before, never a 20 pounder. He also doubted that yotes here make over 65 lb. and suggested that our big one may have been 80 at most. He saw the pic yr ago not the actual animal. So I stand corrected.

Anyway I thank all the experts for the lesson on wildlife

Edited by Little

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We as humans often underestimate the capabilities of wildlife when hungry enough.    Typically you won't see a pack of wolves in Alaska attack Musk Ox due to the damage they can have afflicted on them, but towards the end of the short season and hungry enough a pack will work together on a single bull and take that risk upon themselves.   So anything's possible even with a large enough pack of Coyotes.   We've seen them try to attack one of our young colts here, but thanks to Mama and the rest of the herd they didn't win that time.   Best protection on acreages against Coyotes by the way are Donkeys/burrows but boy are they noisy! 

We've also had reports of even loan Coyotes attacking people on our river system pathways here in nearby Calgary City.

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59 minutes ago, Little said:

I have never seen a 20 lb. adult coyote. Maybe a poodle cross??

 

Also, wife suggested that coyotes will run a larger animal in a circle, switching off so the  notes remain somewhat fresh. This would bring some credence to the horse story. They would hamstring a large animal.  I doubt they would take on a healthy horse but strange things happen.

i just told my grandson (who operates our line now) that coyotes only weigh 20 lb.  His comment was 'you must be on Facebook' We don't normally weigh any animals we take as nothing sells by the lb. , however as said before, never a 20 pounder. He also doubted that yotes here make over 65 lb. and suggested that our big one may have been 80 at most. He saw the pic yr ago not the actual animal. So I stand corrected.

Anyway I thank all the experts for the lesson on wildlife

Really!!!!!!!!  Let me get this straight.   The people were home. Their dogs were out.  You think a group of coyotes chased a horse around right there by the barn ( in circles like ring around the rosie?) until it tired, were able to collapse by biting it and then start eating it.......  The Michigan DNR spent days investigating and did a full report----but your wife has it figured out?????????

You acknowledge you don't weigh anything. Michigan DNR specifically says coyotes look bigger than they really are BUT you know better than biologists who DO tag and weigh coyotes and spend their life studying their behavior? You know more than the Michigan DNR, Arizona Game and Wildlife, the National Geographic Society and the Sonoran Desert Museum (that actually owns several coyotes)?????  YOU know better?

Okay, I got it..   

Edited by Daveh
remove language I thought was a little hot on reflection.

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Yes you can underestimate nature but not the laws of physics. Did you read the story?  Did you see that the coyote pack was engaged in a fight with the farm dogs?  Do you think they just stopped the fight to go kill a horse?   I am not against being very cautious of wild animals. I encourage it. But if you read the stories you will find that as a direct result of this incidents neighbors started shooting and poisoning the coyotes. All because of sensationalism and unfounded fear.  A gray wolf can weigh up to 180lbs and this would be a huge and risky project for them.

animla siz3.jpg

Edited by Daveh

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By the way, why is it we are advised only to take care with our small pets?   If they take down horses shouldn't we say "Take care with all pets up to the size of a full grown horse".  When is the last time you heard about a rottweiler, german shepherd or pitt bull getting carted away by a pack of coyotes. You don't because it does not happen. They are small mammals.

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21 minutes ago, Daveh said:

Really!!!!!!!!  Let me get this straight.   The people were home. Their dogs were out.  You think a group of coyotes chased a horse around right there by the barn ( in circles like ring around the rosie?) until it tired, were able to collapse by biting it and then start eating it.......  The Michigan DNR spent days investigating and did a full report----but your wife has it figured out?????????

You acknowledge you don't weigh anything. Michigan DNR specifically says coyotes look bigger than they really are BUT you know better than biologists who DO tag and weigh coyotes and spend their life studying their behavior? You know more than the Michigan DNR, Arizona Game and Wildlife, the National Geographic Society and the Sonoran Desert Museum (that actually owns several coyotes)?????  YOU know better?

Okay, I got it..   It is a good thing you and yours only spent your life trapping wild animals for their fur because I think your are best suited to a function where you only need to match wits with a canine.  

No you don't get it. You are having problems with comprehension. I said it was highly unlikely. Coyotes here don't  pack up often. I said 'possible' and highly unlikely'. What part of that did you not understand?

I guess a museum has a lot of experience with live animals. I can understand that. Stuffed yote may weigh 20 lb..

We are farmers and ranchers, trapping and guiding are sidelines, but we do live and work amongst wildlife pretty much everyday.  We also have a ranch in AZ. Seen a few yotes there too, but i guess i should get a picture book like you so I can see what things look like.  

Head back to your mothers basement and look at pictures of real wild animals.

 

 

Edited by Little

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Its called the Sonoran Desert Living Museum..............Cause they are alive.  You should go but don't kill anything:-)

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