RV_

:lol:

I agree, very well said. So for those wanting to liquidate what do people who can see what is happening clearly do with their non-real assets? Mid to late 2012 that is.

Sounds like a good investment Kirk. I have funds and other investments that do not need to be managed but need watching. I had way too much cash in a USAA savings account that was a performance money market account for liquid capital to run my businesses and pay my outside sales guys and my personal assistant. Until mid 2008 it had a yield with the amount I had in it of 3.75-4.25% Then suddenly it was and still is way under 1 %. Before I made my investment in Tesla when it IPO'd last year having money in savings was like having it in a shoe box. I called the bank up last August and asked them how much I was making per $10k actual interest per year and was told that for each $10k I would earn $108.00 a year. I took more than a few blocks of that amount and decided if I made 5 or 8% it would be fantastic. If I sold today when it is down a bit, I would make about 20% profit per $10k invested. Two weeks ago it would have been more like 55% profit in less than 18 months for my first block, and 5 months for my second block. I did my property cash too and paid off a small loan two years after I bought it. We got it as a repo for pennies on the dollar in a very nice area for here. Good property that is resellable or rentable in a pinch at the right price can't be beat. I am scraping together one more Tesla buy if the price comes down or sit pat "long" as I am if it doesn't drop to my price. It beats a shoe box or a bank. Making $2k-5500 per 10k invested beats $108.00 a year any day. It also may go higher, much higher. I also had to put my SH's money from her contracting company and her last house she flipped which was a lakeside one that we kept the mineral rights on and collect quite a bit per month into property. She got out of that for top dollar a month before the initial crash. If you have funds you are still in. We are looking for a rental property now too with prices down now. That was a good move.

I now doubt Tesla will get down to 22.5 as I hoped it would this cycle, and perhaps not again. The fickle media has done another 180 on the company now stabilizing the downward trend with news of pricing and date of first deliveries for summer 2012 by model. I had hoped to capitalize on a much lower price, and may yet get it temporarily like last August. We want more shares as cheap as possible but can only scrape together 5% of what I have invested with them now, and still keep my minimum cash on hand. So I was again hoping for a record low, and am in the same boat I was in last August and posted on this thread as it happened. Here from today's Seeking Alpha: Excerpt: "You can see the detail of all of the pricing and options on Tesla's new web page outlining the everything you need to know about the Model S. Both the pricing and the timing for the Model S are of course key factors with regard to which the market has been looking for confirmation. The fact that the company is on track to meet both commitments is clearly bullish for the stock. Consequently, we remain bullish on Tesla and expect to see a retest of the $34.94 November high. Disclosure: I am long TSLA." OK the Author of this article, like me, is long on Tesla. Clearly biased. That whole article with pricing and release dates for the different models of the 7 seater Model S luxury all electric sedan that will go, depending on model, from 160 mile range to 300 miles, is the link below. Now get this. Bear in mind this is a comfortable 7 seat luxury family sedan we are talking about. The Performance model can do 0-60 mph in 4.4 seconds - faster than the Porsche 911 Carrera! http://seekingalpha....ck?source=yahoo Sorry I did think it would tank around the first of the year to March as speculation and fear built up around the end of the Roadster contract with Lotus, and during the lull between that income and the beginning of production and delivery of the Model S which is on time as of now. It may yet yield another perfect buy price which for me is 22.5 or less. But unless I see any more movement I may buy just what I can sooner than later. I am still in and long on Tesla. All production of the first year is already sold out and the second year is being reserved now. What people don't seem to realize is that everybody doesn't have to buy an all electric car for Tesla to be extremely successful and profitable. All they have to do is sell out their production output and keep growing. Having customers in line and prepaid is lagniappe as we say in Louisiana. Remember I do not know anything about investing. I just followed Tesla since it started and watch them meet every schedule and plan. I also watched Space X another Elon Musk adventure that paid off already. And am watching his joint venture with Paul Allen of MS fame, and Burt Rutan. Here is an article with a terrific 3 minute video you can click on showing what they are doing about the again innovative way to do something better and cheaper: http://www.laobserve...n_joined_by.php Paul Allen is notable for investing for fun but no profit several billion dollars, but Musk and Rutan are not. Quite the opposite Musk's SpaceX delivered and is in the black, as did his Pay Pal before that which he sold with his partner, and his Tesla, about to go in the black and currently in production for their initial high end Sportster model which contract is about to end and their own factory begin production of the new much cheaper Luxury Model S sedan, and begin deliveries six and a half months from now. In other words that newest joint venture funded by Allen, with Rutan designing the plane, and using a custom developed Falcon rocket from Musk's Space X company may be the next big thing. I am sold on Tesla and Space X, but remain to be convinced about this new venture until the first test launch. But like with Tesla before it, I will certainly be watching closely. Just my thoughts.

Kirk, Great chance for you to get in. Look for 22.50 or less. Short enough for you?

Oops! Forgot this. One of our members here gave me some good advice about learning options and I am stupid on them and like I said to him that is over my head. But Motley also posted a way for them to make money off the panicky emotional investors by telling them this: http://www.fool.com/...tors-using.aspx I was also told that options wipes more folks out than anything. So I didn't say do this. I am just amazed at how the investors are herded like sheep into predictable chutes where they think there is an exit, only to find the hammer. I could sell now and buy later but it also might go back up and I lose shares so that defeats my long term strategy with Tesla. Did I say strategy? Forgive me, I know not what I say. I have no strategy except buy low, sell high or after the Model S has been out a bit TBD then. I honestly don't know anything about the market. Just Elon Musk and Tesla and Space X and Pay Pal. See everybody does not have to buy or even want an electric car that goes 300 miles on a charge, a weeks driving for me. Just enough and that niche seems to be enough to get started. Any other car companies large or small have a full year's production sold out with $5k deposits? Or for that matter sold out the first year of any superclass car with 100% deposits in advance? If so I'll buy shares there too.

Cindona, You act as if this was unexpected down to the media and consumer confidence going negative. If you go back in my posts on Tesla, I expected this exactly at this time period. I said that anybody wanting to buy in for long term will get one last chance as during the time they stop selling Roadsters and before they start delivering the Model S sedans (Dec 2011 to June 2012) they will tank one more time for a buy opportunity. Last week I thought about selling at 34.95 and then hope it tanked to buy more shares with the same money as I thought it would. But as I said I am in it for at least until the Model S is being delivered. Trying to "predict" the exact moments to buy and sell a volatile stock with the intent of staying in it is a fools game, as things can cause a loss that holding prevents. But seeing clearly that the Model S has between 5000 and 10,000 advance $5000.00 deposits, refundable of course, and that they will spend all of their liquid assets to finish the factory and build them, which is the normal flow of production and was known back when Motley hated them and later loved them and now hate them again. For example if I sold at 34.95 and was wrong about another big drop in price that I expected, I could have ended up with less shares. Being wrong on that is fine. I hope for 22.50 for another buy for me. Not bravado here, it is posted in my links here already. Go here to post number 43 in this thread: http://www.rvnetwork.com/index.php?showtopic=93326&st=40 That was last August and I mentioned that I was looking for a big drop right about now between the time they stopped selling the Roadster and had missed a buying opportunity the week before. Well it dropped again and I bought, and again mentioned that it would tank again and consumer confidence would go down because they are a real threat to the ICE industry, and because with building the factory and doing the development of the Model S preproduction what is expected is now happening. Just like they did with the roadster that was a success that sold out the entire first two years production in advance with 100% deposits, and has been in continuous production and on the road since 2008. Everyone then said it would not happen and never get into production and then that it would never sell. As I also said in post #69 here, this was coming and I am getting together what I can to buy. This is a buying opportunity. Motley Fool? You mean the folks that flip flop 180 every few months on Tesla? Go to post 10 in this thread and there is a link where Motley said essentially the same thing. Then in Post 25 Motley loves TESLA. But glad you brought it up. If it goes under 22.50 I will buy whatever I can with whatever I can spare. Anybody can have stars in their eyes and say they made a wise investment. Anybody can throw stones like Motley and not own but say it is a bad investment, then change their minds a few months later. It is rare for one to predict within a few months that a stock will dunk and then rise again, not because they want it to prove anything, but because they want to buy more at every buy opportunity. Being a self proclaimed novice I can lead no one in investing. I will continue to follow the rule of buy low sell high. I am loving the volatility. Why? Because I know Elon Musk will bring it home. Just like the Roadster and the Falcon Rocket with his company Space X, and like he did with his company Pay Pa which he sold. I love the fact that while I make money, we will be employing American workers and starting up an American Company that has been global from the start. By the way Elon is launching to the ISS in February 2012 with one of his company's (Space X) Falcon Rockets. Go here: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/12/12/date_set_for_first_spacex_dragon_to_iss/ Boeing and other folks said that a private small company could not develop and launch a successful new rocket without ten years of development and testing. SpaceX did it in 4 years? Boeing is trying to keep him out by lobby and beltway influence, but Elon is big enough to out them and got some share. Is Boeing too big to fail? Or have they become too big? Boeing's problem is that Space X is way cheaper to use. We are trying to cut budgets right? (Unless it causes problems for Boeing, then we pay much more?) Elon Musk is big enough to not be ignored. Then again some folks create their own concepts. You remember Paul Allen of MS Fame? And Burt Rutan? They are getting together to create a new much cheaper way to launch spacecraft. http://www.laobserved.com/biz/2011/12/paul_allen_joined_by.php I am not worried about my investment with Tesla and Musk. I would rather be a part of it and lose (which I believe I won't) than stand around watching. Investing is also about doing things, not just the money. But that boys club has plenty to keep thing successful. If you are looking for an opportunity don't say you didn't hear it from me since six months ago. It may go lower but my threshold is 22.50 to buy and I will kick myself if my buy order misses by a few cents and then it goes sky high again. I am secure in buying. Then I can wait to sell high. Selling is the only time you make, or lose money. Once again I am hoping my own stock tanks. The exact words I used back then. I will count my losses or gains after the ModelS is out.

Cindona that is apples and oranges. But nice try I am not going political even if you are the OP of this thread, I will let you get your thread shut down all by yourself. Have you considered starting your own blog and website like I have and many others and then start up a free forum using free forum software strictly for political arguments and discussions? I don't have that on mine simply because I am not interested in moderating people who can't abide simple rules. Nor will I moderate here. You will also note on my site that I have some pretty warped humor, and much writing, on it with and no politics or religion anywhere on it. And I make the rules there. So why would you try to use me as a foil to espouse politics here? Sorry, not biting and I am out of your thread before it blows up by your own hand. You need a podium Cindona, why aren't you building one to see if they come? Running a website and forum isn't expensive and is easy to do. And it is quite acceptable to do that, no restrictions on you that way. Wouldn't that be fun for you?

I will say that from a money making not a tree hugger perspective the clean energy markets are IMHO goi8ng to provide terrific opportunities to those that take the time to really look at what is happening now. Especially after the Solyndra fiasco. There are some amazing opportunities there but I have to wait for now. However about private industry being all in to clean energy tech the NY times had a great and insightful article today about the sector: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/12/business/energy-environment/a-cornucopia-of-help-for-renewable-energy.html?pagewanted=1&_r=2&nl=todaysheadlines&emc=tha2

Ed the old kkeeping it under a mattress is no longer the only way to lose money by holding it. Having it liquid in savings is the same thing today at the low rates offered, if you want to call rapes rates. I invested for the first time myself in TSLA and bought first few shares just after IPO Aug 2010 @ 17. More @ 22.5 Mar 2011. Final block @ 22.5 Aug 2011. Last Friday close 33.64 = +49.51 % YTD. Factoring the earlier 2010 shares makes it more but only enough to make it 50%. So I made just over 50% had I sold Friday. But I didn't and won't until the Model S and perhaps 2013. I can't make or lose anything in the market if I don't buy. I won't make or lose anything until I sell what I bought. My feeling is to hold until after the Model S debuts and quite possibly until they are completely in the black in 2013. There is no short explanation for that. But anybody can find my reasoning by reading every blog from the website and everything published online which would fill several books. I was interested enough to have done all that reading as it was written and before most even knew they existed. All of that does not give me much of an edge on knowing in advance when to sell to most advantage. I don't presume to know anything about the market. I was just tired of not making anything with the way under 1% interest on my liquid assets. Had the same insight towards Apple at 55 in 2005 and did not act on my feelings then. Having even stronger feelings about the future of Tesla I finally jumped into buying individual stocks and would be horrified if anybody followed my lead and lost any money. Nor could I take any credit for making it as Tesla is making it for me. However, even though my tiny investment may mean nothing to them in terms of my investment making or breaking them, it means more to me to invest in a company I believe in more than just for dollars and cents. Making a lot of money is a big bonus. I am a realist. Some investments make a lot of sense. Others make little cents. And others just make scents. Stocks are just a teeny tiny part of my overall holdings and investments. Or I should say stock, because I am not qualified to delve into investigating multiple stocks for myself. Nor want to be. If the experts really were we would not have had an unforeseen crash. Each of them would be batting 1000. We are looking hard and heavy for rental properties right now that are fire sales as single family residences

OK so let's talk making money in the market with a sustainable market portfolio segment for those that do more than one stock like me. (The market as in buying individual stocks, not funds. MY one stock venture into the market myself is only my hedge because of low interest rates on my liquid assets.) There are many more reasons to invest in sustainable and renewable energy industries than that they are trendy, or green, or perceived as politically correct. Us middle-roaders and non tree-huggers are looking hard and heavy at the greener industries because they are emerging and will grow. Ergo make money. So what are some of the analysts and investment people saying about it that aren't suffering from media glossy eyes "I believe anything negative the oil lobbyists put in the press today" people who panic at the drop of a hat? http://seekingalpha.com/article/307014-post-solyndra-clean-tech-is-alive-and-growing?source=yahoo Excerpt from the above: "What does this mean to consumers and investors? Clean tech has become too indispensable to a diverse set of stakeholders, which includes governments, large corporations and a huge segment of the population which stands to benefit from alternatives to a monolithic carbon based future. Contrary to the naysayers, who point to Solyndra with exhortations of “I told you so,” the industry is building a foundation for growth that may be the lead story for the current century in which we live." 2013 should be about the right time to evaluate my holding or selling Tesla. And just about the right time to use the knowledge I am gaining about the major com0anies mentioned in that article, and their technologies and niche differences.

http://seekingalpha.com/article/305509-2-option-trades-to-consider-for-monday?source=yahoo http://seekingalpha.com/article/305821-alternative-energy-picks-from-the-world-s-largest-money-managers?source=yahoo From last week http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-11-02/tesla-motors-third-quarter-loss-widens-to-65-1-million.html?cmpid=yhoo Although I anticipated a big drop in price when the Roadster goes out of production and sales any month now, and the start of delivery of the Model S which is already sold out, the news about the newest deal with Daimler, and reiterations about the deals with Panasonic and Toyota. Daimler which already invested and bought first refusal if they ever sell the company back in 2009 or 2010, has announced that Tesla is going to make a drivetrain for a Mercedes Benz car as well as the Smart car. So the price drop it appears, is not going to happen. I would buy more at any price under 23 but perhaps it won't be at that price ever again. So there are still tremendous opportunities out there right now, but they always are better when the market is down for individual mid term and long term investors. Knowing which stocks to buy is the rub right? This was my first actual stock purchase as I let the experts manage my funds. It will probably be my last as my funds and property are doing as well too, just not as rapidly up as Tesla.

And a recovery every five years or so, six this time most likely, as well. It is a cycle and when you buy at the trough, then sell at the peak, it does not involve any shorts or math formulas, you usually make money. I guess most folks today are looking for get rich quick. All I know is that you are either paying interest, collecting interest, or disinterested.

Amen Ed. The world isn't ending tomorrow. It ends in 2012. I have been buying what I could ever since this downturn started in 2007/8. I am standing pretty much pat now as you are, although only one stock. My main investments that I was buying hard and heavy were funds we stay in, and our property etc.

This just in on my one stock pick to invest in, I let the funds be managed by the USAA managers. It is the upgrades and downgrades history from Robert W. Baird (today,) Dougherty & Company, and Deutsche Bank (in the last month) and all "suddenly" discovering them in August and September 2010 with these advisories that haven't changed now or last year. Note that there were no previous ones: http://finance.yahoo.com/q/ud?s=TSLA I have followed them since 2003 and long since stopped trying to explain their perfect biz plan, and that all that is scaring some was part of the plan and announced last year, to others. The ones that said they never would go into production here were wrong, the ones in the press were wrong, and the big three are wrong in trying to make part electric or all electric compact cars with poor performance and luxury car prices, as their sales have shown. 800 some sold for one and under 200 of the other sold. While Tesla sits on deposits for 5300 Model S luxury cars that comptete with the higher priced BMWs and Mercedes in that class, in both performance, luxury, and seating, and already are testing the betas and inviting those with reservations for a ride in them at the New Tesla Manufacturing plant in California in in a few weeks. The writers are just starting to write about them based on more than hearsay in the last three months and I still see some that are reading the specs of the leaf and posting them as the performance and miles per charge of the Tesla. If you want the real skinny go to teslamotors.com and see for yourself. The market cycle always turns even if slower than normal. I had to tell my SH that it will tank when they are between production models and not selling the roadster but not delivering the Model S, and that we will hold then when all panic around us. We will sell sometime after the model S is delivered, or decide to hold longer depending on the plans for the SUV and how the Daimler electric smart goes with their battteries, the Toyota RAV 4 electrics with their drive trains,and make that decision then. In the meantime enjoying the ride, and perhaps even buying more if the buy opportunity is too good to resist. The time to hope that my stock tanks again (buy opportuniy)will come again as long as most others are panicking and driving it up and down. They have showrooms globally and cars globally that are breaking speed and endurance records for both electric cars and in performance against traditional ICE vehicles. Did I mention that I like them? Is it a risk? Of course! Don't do it because of me. I am the least experienced in these things in this thread.

OOPS! Mine. Pasted the wrong one. Thanks Duke! Editing now. Try it again in half a minute. It is very good and right on with what I see as folks thinking they are doing right, and doing the opposite. The example dialogues below it and charts would be funny if they weren't so true.

Here is a chart that is so true it is funny but is a serious article on the psychology of investors and how they really do the opposite of what Buffet keeps telling people is the secret. Buy low sell high. Look at the chart and see what I mean: http://www.tflguide.com/2011/04/how-investors-react-in-different-market-situations.html It goes on to explain all the varying copmments we get and the personalities thaty say them and why. Pretty interesting article. Edited for wrong link, right one now.

Amen Duke! The rule is buy low sell high. We have our USAA Mutual funds that we bought when the prices were bottomed out from 2007 to 2009 and I bought maximum anuual contributions for the IRAs and a large for us amount monthly as my pay was free and clear as everything we own including our land and house are and were paid for. The market is down and my TSLA buy two weeks ago that I posted above is up. From the $2.55 I paid back to today's close of 26.35 after hours. It will still go up past last year's high and beyond I believe. It will take well into 2012 for that to happen. Tellingt you why that will happen would take several pages but it is all out there.

Chris, Webroot used Sophos Antivirus which failed Virus Bulletin VB100 testing for Vista SP1(April 2008) with 2 wildlist misses, and performed so poorly in AV-Comparatives testing (November 2008) that it failed to acheive even standard certification (No Certification-117 false positives)I don't know what A/V engine Webroot uses now but it is different than Sophos and in the 2011 PC World review webroot took some hard hits for slowing the computers way down and not protecting or finding infections once they get in. 2008 Go here and scroll all the way down to webroot at the bottom and you will see the big X and the same for Sophos: http://www.virusbtn.com/vb100/archive/test?y=2008&m=04 Here is the last time it was tested by AV comparatives as Sophos. Since it used Sophos for the A/V part in 2008, any Sophos failure will be one for Webroot as well. Go here and scroll down all the way to the results and Sophos was not certified at all. http://www.av-comparatives.org/seiten/ergebnisse/report20.pdf 2011: Here is the PC World review for 2011. The Magazine review is 180 degrees from what the users say below but again, many folks stick with the familiar. I am also seeing that some users are using it and a second real time Anti malware product and that is a good way to mess up both, and possibly the data on the computer. If it is indeed as much of a resource hog as the reviews say it is you might want to contact them online and get their removal tool, then install MSE and use it for a week and see if it makes as big a difference as I suspect it may. Since you have a paid for your copy, and have the code to activate it, if you don't see any difference you can uninstall MSE and reinstall it easily. Here is the link for the 2011 review: http://www.pcworld.com/article/214667/webroot_internet_security_essentials_2011.html

Beats me Carl, I thought they ceased to be in 2008, and were going that way for most of this past decade. You surprised me with thet one.

Yep I was referring to the browser, and the mangement they had in the mid to late 90's. I didn't know they had anything still out there. I just looked it up. Is this what you mean? http://email.about.com/cs/winclientreviews/gr/netscape.htm

BTW, Lest I be thought of as just using MS, we use and used Quicken. I switched to Windows live mail and tried gmail and hate both so may be giving Thunderbird another try. Haven't tried it in at least 5 or ten years I forget. I love MS office and have four or five legal licenses and hologrammed CDs. I absolutely hate MS Outlook and never install it since MS Office 95 and 97 when I tried and uninstalled. I went so far as to get the corporate Sage ACT software for CRM at the last company where I also ordered Kapspersky enterprise edition as well. That even though we had Office Pro on every computer and only on one where that individual loved outlook and used it for email and schedule and contacts did I let it be on one of my workstations. If Thunderbird doesn't work out for me then I will try Outlook 2010 one more time on one computer, and load it on all of them if I can tolerate it as Outlook express is not as secure anymore. One more comment about Netscape. I started an Internet provider service in 1995 that grew quite large in Germany when stationed there (Of course the real profits happened after I had to return to the US at the end of my tour in Jan 97, and sold out to my systems engineer.) I had used Mosaic but settled on Netscape as my browser and paid for it. I was there when the brouhaha first came about and it was not MS that made Netscape fail. Netscape had the worst customer service and sold it for several different prices and did not refund me the difference when I found the day I renewed they sold it for less to new customers the same day and never said a word! Netscape was the most arrogant company I ever dealt with in or out of technology bar none. And then thought they were big enough to take on MS and lost again after losing their customewr base to just plain arrogance. MS came out with IE and I uninstalled Netscape just a week after I tried out IE. I did not then care if I wasted a subscription fee, they pixed me and many others off. At the time I was still using DR Dos from Digital research not MSDOS, and dual booted it as well as using QEMM mem management non MS software. I also used Quicken from the git go not MS Money and never used their photo processing or media player until now. I still prefer the third party audio and video programs. Back then Central point software anti virus and Norton utilities were king. My point is I use what works most elegantly for me in engineering terms. But it is still a subjective call regardless of experience or monies spent. Your Kaspersky will work as well as my MSE will for each of us, becuase no security program is even close to 100% as you know since you read the AV Comparatives right? The first lines of defense as I have posted here many times before is Windows updates first to shut the door of vulnerabilities possible, at that time, and user awareness second as that is the main avenue of infections, fooling people into clicking on a fake email or scareware and over-riding the security program. As well online pirating software and music/video content is way up there in infection potential and no brand can protect you then. None of that is personal, but my experience for what it is worth. Many folks are afraid to change and don't want to try using an uninstaller and others don't care. As long as you take care of the first lines of defense it really makes no difference what program you choose, as long as you do have something that is free or paid for and up to date to clean out any infections that do get allowed in, which increasingly is the case. But I have tried the MS and the third party alternatives in every instance including the OS' and used the one that I preferred and seemed to work best for me. I don't get infections but have seen a few drive by and scareware attempts thwarted by me and/or my security programs on my systems. Others haven't had the same experience.

Glenn, If you drove a Ford and said that Ford was unscrupulous, but you drive one anyway, and then tell others not to use their parts because they can't be any good because Ford can't make a good car made of their parts, why would you still be driving the Ford itself, when there are perfectly good Chevy's and Dodge's and others to choose from? Perhaps you suspect that the others would not be any better either? Running Windows and then saying that they can't write an OS that will not need updates, and can't be trusted so their A/V is not reliable, well, that is begging the question in reverse. You thought it was naive to use MSE because Windows won a browser war back in the late 90's? If you check, all OS' have vulnerabilities and always will. My goodness if security was easy then the Linux server vaults that contain their kernal info, which would be a treasure for criminals, would not have been hacked and cracked last week. Apparently the criminals that got in just stumbled in accidentally and the intrusion was detected. They don't think the intruders got the kernal codes or knew they were there. The annual pwn2own contest would not take place where every OS goes down everytime, even when the companies, most notably Apple, Patches their OS within days of the contest for the vulnerabilities they "think" the hackers will exploit. That hasn't worked either. In other words, as long as there are responsible OS OEMs there will be patches and updates and that is a very good thing. Because there always will be the criminals, of that I am sure. I do use AV comparatives and have read them for years, and they are the reason I selected MSE to try in the first place. Good link! The 2010 summary that you pointed to does NOT have MSE at the bottom. The summary has seven tests they conduct annually in addition to their other scheduled tests. In that summary of the seven tests performed Kaspersky is listed as a winner in only one where they give a gold silver or bronze award. MSE is listed as a winner in three of the tests. It is also one of only two that are free programs that were tested. Here is a summary of the summary that you can find on pages 5 on in the link you provided, I bolded Microsoft's wins and bolded and italicized Kaspersky's win: Summary of the Annual Awards On-Demand Malware Detection GOLD: G DATA SILVER: AVIRA BRONZE: Symantec On-Demand PUA Detection GOLD: Panda SILVER: Symantec BRONZE: TrustPort Proactive On-Demand Malware Detection GOLD: G DATA SILVER: AVIRA BRONZE: Microsoft Low False Positive Rate GOLD: F-Secure SILVER: Microsoft, eScan BRONZE: BitDefender Overall Performance (Low System Impact) GOLD: K7 SILVER: Kingsoft, Sophos BRONZE: Avast, Microsoft On-Demand Scanning Speed GOLD: Avast, AVIRA SILVER: Symantec BRONZE: Panda Whole Product Dynamic Protection GOLD: F-Secure, Symantec SILVER: AVIRA BRONZE: Kaspersky Product of the Year 2010: F-Secure If all of that seems obscure, on pages 5 etc. there is a short blurb under each test telling you what it means in layman's terms. The color chart is hard to read until you read the text of what each test is testing. Microsoft was listed as a good basic protection suite. I find it falling in the upper 1/4 of the pack, and in good company. As well it is listed at the top of the pack for using the least resources with only one other above it. Lady Fitz, you are indeed right in that even the "paid for always on Malwarebytes Pro" is designed for use with an active A/V product, not as a standalone. MSE is also at the top of the heap for A/V programs with anti spy etc. as well, for being one of the top two tested for removing malware completely. I use Malwarebytes free as a back up, however it is 25 bucks per computer for a lifetime subscription. It is not designed nor recommended by the company to be used as a standalone product and the only protection. Lastly all of the paid for and free products do some job of protection and my choice need not be another's. I chose and paid for Kaspersky for about five years ever since they became the AV comparatives product of the year in 2004 and 2005. They haven't been back on top since, but that does not make them a bad product at all. They are in the middle of the pack for resource usage as well which isn't as good as MSE but very good nevertheless. It is my opinion that there is no better interface and combination of reliability and low false positives, one of the top three in detecting unknown malware, which is what the Proactive On-Demand Malware Detection test was about, than MSE. And it's free. But the number one reason I like it is because no one knows the guts of Microsoft better than Microsoft. Giving away MSE may well put the others out of business but like the free browser, no doubt there will be competition. If just by offering it free would assure dominance of a market let's not forget that free or paid MS doesn't always win, for example Money lost out to Quicken, Bing to Google, Windows Mobile to Apple and adroid, etc. What determines a product's success is what does the job best for the least cost and inconvenience to the end user. I like MS and its products. That is why I use them. One other item to note is that MSE is now in version 2 since December of 2010 which is after the last AV comparatives summary. We should see it in the December 2011 summary in a few months. Last word. Like OS' there is no security product that is 100% perfect 100% of the time against all threats. None can protect any computer from unknown threats reliably. Most have heurisitics but still depend on signatures that are downloaded daily or more often. None can protect us from ourselves. If one clicks to allow a scan from a scareware intrusion no A/V can protect you. We have to be able to over-ride the scanners when we want to download a program. Especially new ones that aren't accounted for by the security programs out there but can trigger a false positive. I think Fsecure this year's winner would be a good one to try, but some of their computers also will get infected. Here's a customer support issue with fsecure allowing an infection in: http://forum.f-secure.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11708 I always recommend malwarebytes as the back up tool, and in that link just above the user found it with Malwarebytes when fsecure didn't find the infection. So no matter the program flaws can be found. Thus I look for light resource usage, best for heuristics and new malware, and as long as it is in the top three or four, free is a huge bonus! My point is that the best cannot protect us 100%. There will be new malware infections with all of them,and user inflicted ones too. Safe computing.

Glenn, There are plenty of alternatives to MSE as well as to Windows. What operating system and anti malware programs are you running or suggesting again?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Security_Essentials http://experts.windows.com/w/experts_wiki/89.aspx