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#61 BrianT

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 10:42 PM

Everyone is missing the point, yes it is a simple question,do you think a criminal or non us citizen is going totell the truth.



The thought occurs to me that they may not be looking so much for the answer to the question as much as HOW you answer the question. Will they be looking at your body language to tell them whether there may be deception on your part? (Do you squirm? Do you have trouble answering a simple question? Do you have to think about it? Do you stammer or change your answer half way through? Do you speak with a distinct accent or dialect?)

Maybe those things are what they're really looking for and the "what country are you from?" is just the standard question they ask to engage those they feel they may need to engage, for whatever reason.

I've been through at least two of those I-10 checkpoints between TX, NM and AZ, can't remember exactly where they were. Totally uneventful. One time, waved on through without stopping. The other time, I think I had rolled down the window and said "Good afternoon" as someone glanced into the car and immediately waved us on through. We were obviously not what they were looking for.

Honestly, on that long stretch of road, it can get pretty boring so a distraction isn't all bad anyway. I'd certainly rather deal with these checkpoints than the groping digital rapists at the airports. (I haven't flown in years, and those guys are the reason. Just won't do it.)


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#62 Big5er

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 11:03 PM

You didn't watch the video long enough - one guy was asked for an ID, but one guy does seem kind of immaterial. So why are you trying to pick a fight? I certainly wasn't trying to.

Dan


Dan, I'm not trying to pick anything, I am just trying to keep the facts straight. You said "that anyone within 100 miles of any US coast appears to be subject to "border" security rules, including search without probable cause." yet I, my father, 3 sisters, and two sets of grandparents have all lived within 100 miles of the Texas coast for all of my 50 years and none of us has ever been searched, with or without probable cause (well there was that thing when I was 16, but believe me, they had plenty of probable cause, and they were not border agents). My father has clocked over 45,000 miles in his motorhome, from coast to coast (east/west and north/south) and has never been searched. My youngest sister is married to an outlaw biker, who probably SHOULD be searched, and has yet to be searched at a border checkpoint. None of my friends, even the hispanic ones, have ever been searched at a border checkpoint so I was just trying to clarify what you said. As I stated in my first post, I thought maybe I was confused by your statement. I think I have determined the issue and cleared up my confusion. You must have run into this issue in Connecticut, which has 97 miles of coastline, where you have witnessed these atrocities first hand. I live in Texas, which only has 367 miles of coastline and another 1241 miles of border with Mexico, and have never seen this occur. That must be where the confusion came from. It probably has to do with the longitude and latitude of the situation. I sincerely apologize for my misunderstanding. And in reference to what you are probably thinking about me right about now: Yes, I am.


And Paul, thanks for your reply. There is nothing like a non answer to prove a point. You know what they say: If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, then baffle them with...

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#63 Paul Stough

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 09:12 AM

...And Paul, thanks for your reply. There is nothing like a non answer to prove a point. You know what they say: If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, then baffle them with...


Ok, I must have missed the question you wanted answered in your post, so if you would please just post the question again, I will give you an answer.

Thanks,

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#64 joendeb92

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 10:12 AM

Brian T you are correct that is called Kinesic Questioning = Body Language, Took a class in this for fire investigation class long time ago.

Not being from the State of Tennessee, YET. I found it very interesting while looking up CCW requirements. That Tenn. (as I read it) enacted a law that the county sheriff (in Most counties) are the Top LEO's. They even have authority over federal agents. If someone from the forum is from Tn. I would be interested to know if this is true.

Something even scarier is if you look at which federal agencies are buying up and stock piling ammunition.

Edited by joendeb92, 01 March 2013 - 10:25 AM.

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#65 bstark

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 10:45 AM

Being from Canada you don't have the same rights as a citizen does so the comparison is not valid. As the government is eroding away more and more of our rights some of us are unwilling to give up. You will thank us later. We will not thank you for riding on our coat tails. What will it take for before you have had enough? Will it be too late to resist? There are plenty of posts all over the internet where people just let the government do a little bit more. Eventually they were imprisoned or killed. I too am retired military and proudly declare that I am an American. I do dot feel that I should be REQUIRED to state this as a condition of traveling on a road (not crossing international borders) that is paid for with my tax dollars in free country.


I certainly understand the rights I'm extended while a visitor to your country and take only small umbrage at your comment about not thanking me for riding your coat-tails. It wasn't necessary to take it that far. An opinion is only that and nothing more.

Here's a thought for you: why hasn't anyone mentioned the required stops that were part of my daily routine near Yuma for agriculture inspection when crossing into California or leaving the environs to head back east on I-8? You are differentiating and moderating your rights as though they are some kind of board game.

It's not all right for me or you to be stopped and questioned vis-a-vis country of citizenship but by all means stop me or yourself and ask me if I have any fruits or vegetables in my cab. whaaaasup? Where's your outrage at the latter infringement of your rights?

Your vegetable and fruit commerce within various states is assumed to be of more import than illegals? Does that even begin to have comparative relevence for you?
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#66 Steveoreno

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 12:20 PM

They should try this at the polls and see if someone has a ID to vote and wait for the ACLU to show up.

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#67 Steveoreno

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 12:21 PM

Why arent these folks at the actual border? This is like being out in a 500 acre field after the bard door was left open.

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#68 Mark S

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 02:48 PM

I believe everyone who has responded to this thread is right to a certain degree. We need to protect our rights without doubt but we also need to have some kind of control on the illegal alien problem as well. It appears, by this conversation, that the two are diametrically opposed. Are there any thoughts to a workable solution? Are there situations where we may be required to set portions of certain rights aside for a specified period of time to facilitate actions that protect other rights? Are there problems that could lead to the ruin of this country because our system is built on the premise that everyone is basically honest and the rest of us are not flexible enough to support whatever is necessary to protect the foundation of a great republic?
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#69 Dan Zemke

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 05:21 PM

And in reference to what you are probably thinking about me right about now: Yes, I am.

LOL - no I'm really not thinking you're one of those bodily orifices. I'm assuming that the part addressed to me was meant as light-hearted sarcasm. In any case, I think all viewpoints have been adequately expressed and I'm thankful I learned about the 100 mile border definition and that it is an administrative definition rather than a law. So thanks to all for that. For me, this thread has run its course, in spite of Mark S's tempting offer.

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#70 TCW

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 06:36 PM

Why arent these folks at the actual border? This is like being out in a 500 acre field after the bard door was left open.

In Arizona, a considerable amount of border has no fence, no roads or other access. Much of this is on land controlled by the Department of Interior (National Park Service and National Wildlife Refuge System) and the Forest Service. I do not know if it has changed, but in the past the Border Patrol did not have unrestricted access. In some areas access was restricted to foot or horseback.

As for HDTs and RVs, I think any vehicle that can transport passangers that can not be readily seen in an area other than the passenger compartment will get greater scrutiny. A couple of years ago I went through a check point in our Class C. The officer asked if I was travelling alone. Before I could answer, my 90# Golden Retriever stood up and moved toward the cockpit shaking the whole RV. The officer at the drivers window and the one on the passenger side both jumped back looking for defensive positions before they saw the big orange blob that just wanted to say hello. We had a good laugh about there expectation of a swarm of humanity exiting the RV and making a run for it across the desert.

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#71 Mtn.Mike

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 05:24 PM

Since I'm from Pa. I had no idea what a Border Patrol checkpoint was until I wintered in Tx. The ones I've gone through down here remind me a little of the TSA and their power in airports, bus terminals and train terminals. The BP agents can stop you a long way from any border and even though they are harmless, for the most part, I have a fear that it will progress to exactly what's happening in airports etc.

I'm sure no one on here wants that to happen but if we continue to give them "carte blanch" to stop and detain when will it turn into "removing your shoes and full body searches?

Our rights are being taken in the name of "stopping terrorism" and until we stand up to it we will fall for anything.

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#72 Ranger and Jin

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 09:08 PM

The way I see it we have two options, give the border patrol more authority so they can detain, arrest, and charge the pin heads shooting the video or send all the border patrol home and just throw open the borders. I have been through plenty of checkpoints and it was truly painless to proudly proclaim I'm an American. Each and every time I was sent on my way with, have a nice day. I suppose the, MSgt, USAF, Ret, on my truck door might have something to do with mutual respect. Maybe I have a narrow mind but if I have asked these folks to wear a uniform and protect my border AND I am spending tax dollars paying them to do the job I hired them to do, if a pinhead gives them a hard time under the guise of exercising his rights, he is also wasting my money. That in itself gives me the right to offer him a knuckle sandwich entree. It is known that we all have rights in this country. What we are lacking is common courtesy and manners.


I was an NCO as well and I seem to remember taking an oath protecting the pinheads rights to be pinheads. While I think it's a waste of time for the LEOs to react they way they did in the videos instead of just saying "move along" I also think the idiots with the cameras in the car are just out for their jollies to see how hard they can yank on a LEOs chain and press their luck. One day they shall get their comeuppance. No kidding, karrma's a b----h.

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#73 Ranger and Jin

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 08:48 AM

The bozos making the video could & should have been arrested. There are at least 2 sections in Title 18 US Code that prohibit interference with or obstruction of a federal agent in the process of their official duties. Asking about your nationality at these immigration check points is clearly part of the agents official duties. If you disagree with the duties assigned to a federal agent, you take your argument to a court of law, where the judges are paid to listen to your nonsense and then inform you that asking a question about nationality is not unreasonable search or siezure. I suspect the agents & their supervisors just decided these idiots weren't worth the time & trouble it would take to prosecute them.

The United States Supreme Court has already ruled that Border Patrol agents may stop a vehicle at these interior checkpoints for brief questioning of its occupants even if there is no reason to believe that the particular vehicle contains illegal aliens. United States v. Martinez-Fuerte 1976

The Supreme Court further held that Border Patrol agents at these interior fixed check points "have wide discretion" to refer motorists selectively to a secondary inspection area for additional brief questioning. In contrast, the Supreme Court held that Border Patrol agents on roving patrol may stop a vehicle only if they have reasonable suspicion that the vehicle contains aliens who may be illegally in the United States—a higher threshold for stopping and questioning motorists than at checkpoints



I think some other points are being missed. Like most of you I've run into checkpoints. I approach always the CP with windows and C/W music playing. I've never had a problem. The only comment I've ever even was that Jin was a beautiful dog.

Would like to point out there is no law that prohibits the recording, taking photos or video of any public figure including police, fire, emts, politiians and so on as long as you don't interfere with their duties. They cannot take your camera either as evidence or to stop your making a video. The best example was in the Lincoln Memorial when a flash mob started to dance silently. DC cops tried to stop the dancing (there was no music) and some of them actually assaulted the people who were participating and those who were making video. They were makind demands that the photography stop and pantently said it was against the law to take pictures and video. It is not against the law to film, video or otherwise capture images of LEOs and Public Safety.

I don't agree with the SC decision that any stop is reason enough to search your car. IMO There is no probable cause to search a car at a checkpoint or traffic stop unless the LEO has reasonable suspicion that a crime has been committed. The Supreme Court removed reasonable suspicion as a reason to search a car. I consider that an invasion of privacy.

Edited by Ranger and Jin, 03 March 2013 - 08:50 AM.

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#74 Jack Mayer

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 10:02 AM

Ranger, I'm not sure that a blanket statement that it is not against the law to record is correct. There were states that had laws against it.I don't know if that is still the case, though. I would be careful about what I did in that regard.

As to searches. You can not deny a search at the border. You basically have no rights. If those checkpoints are considered an extension of the border then perhaps that applies there too. Like you, I would be cooperative to a point. But if they want to enter my vehicle and search it, then I am not giving permission under any circumstances. They will do it anyway, and they will definitely hold me up and give me a hard time. But you have to draw the line some place. And that is my personal line.

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#75 Dan Zemke

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 11:49 AM

New York City, Washington DC, Boston and I suspect many other municipalities have issued explicit instructions to their LEOs that it's OK for folks to take pictures or videos of LEOs exercising their duties.

I follow several photography news sites every week. The clear trend has been to force our law enforcement organizations to make their operational practices more transparent. My impression is that most of this has been done through our courts and some has been influenced by public outcry over censorship without any credible justification.

Regardless of how you feel about the ACLU, here's a clear, one-page summary, of what you can do photographically, and what you should be cautious about: http://www.aclupa.or...otosandmaki.htm

As for searches of my vehicle without probable cause - I'm with Jack (great post BTW).

Dan

Edited by Dan Zemke, 03 March 2013 - 11:58 AM.


#76 Ranger and Jin

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 01:41 PM

@ Jack the statement is true. There are no federal or state laws that I know of that prohibit the photographing of public figure or employees going about their business and duties. Courts have already ruled on it in may states and in others the call for transparency is killing the rest of it.

If ya wanna dance in the Lincoln Memorial and make a movie go ahead.

As for border checks, in fact any port of entry is a place of limbo until they let you pass. I've sailed in to U.S. waters from Mexico up to Marina Del Rey North of Los Angeles. At the minimum they radio and ask you to stop at a Coast Guard station for a check or where your berth is and send the port captain or a CG team over. These days if you not broadcasting an IFF they'll send a boat out.

Never had a problem going in and out of Mexico at the Calexico/Mexicali crossing. Still if they want to search they better have a good reason and like you I'm not giving permission. Let them do what they want there's nothing to find.

On the other hand check points inside the U.S. are another story entirely and there are all kinds of them from agricultural stops near a state line to mobile DHS and border patrol on down to the DUI check points on Sat night. All you have to do is stop, say yes and you're on your way. No problems. Most of the time you don't have to say anything.

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#77 Jimalberta

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 10:31 PM

It used to be here in Alberta that the fish and wildlife officers would set up a roadblock and inspect every vehicle for illegal hunting activities...this happened primarily during hunting season of course but the LOEs were not happy about it. It all came to a halt one day when it was challenged in court and a judge said no way were they within their jurisdiction doing this. It stopped.

And then one day my cousin Kurt is out hunting...well, actually driving to his hunting spot. A wildlife officer pulled him over and asked for his hunting license. Kurt say " No I'm not hunting I'm driving....I can show you my driving license" The WO gets mad and says " I know your hunting you've got your rifle there beside you and its hunting season and your are dressed as a hunter" . Kurt says " I'm driving sir if you want to see my drivers license I'll show you but I will not show you my hunting license until I'm actually hunting" About this time an RCMP officer happens by...the WO waves him down and says to him " this hunter won't show me his hunting license ". RCMP officer looked at Kurt and said " is this true?" Kurt says I'm not hunting I'm driving. RCMP officer says " well then show him your driving license" and took off.

The point of my little story , which is true by the way , is that most of us would have showed the WO his hunting license because he is a figure of authority and we are expected to obey authority figures. What the WO officer didn't know is that one of my and Kurt's other cousins is a wildlife officer and Kurt hunts with him regularly and so knows the real rules.

How does this relate? Well just because they are doing their little road check and asking their questions does not mean its legal or constitutional...has it ever been challenged in court?

my 2 cents....my other comment got yanked and I was sent a nasty reminder to not be political so I hope this passes the High Poobah's scrutiny.

Edited by Jimalberta, 04 March 2013 - 10:31 PM.

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#78 Dave & Jenney

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 05:45 PM

Paul, you have the correct view. The most important thing is to try and pass the attitude test

without giving up personal sovereignty. When someone starts stepping on your toes, a smile

works only to a point, then you must say no. Anyone can just ask a lawyer friend, the answer

is always the same, "don't talk to law enforcement"

 


Edited by Dave & Jenney, 07 March 2013 - 05:57 PM.

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#79 Newt

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 07:40 PM

Paul, you have the correct view. The most important thing is to try and pass the attitude test

without giving up personal sovereignty. When someone starts stepping on your toes, a smile

works only to a point, then you must say no. Anyone can just ask a lawyer friend, the answer

is always the same, "don't talk to law enforcement"

 

 

Reminds  me of my friend telling me of his LEO buddy.  He stopped a lawyer for speeding.  The lawyer proceeded to give him a hard time.  All the while telling him how he was wasting his time because the ticket would be dismissed.  The LEO folded his ticket book, put it in his pocket and said get in the car.  The lawyer said WHAT?  The LEO said, you may beat the ticket.  But, you're not beating the trip down town.  :lol:

 

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#80 Leadfoot

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 08:34 PM

Reminds  me of my friend telling me of his LEO buddy.  He stopped a lawyer for speeding.  The lawyer proceeded to give him a hard time.  All the while telling him how he was wasting his time because the ticket would be dismissed.  The LEO folded his ticket book, put it in his pocket and said get in the car.  The lawyer said WHAT?  The LEO said, you may beat the ticket.  But, you're not beating the trip down town.  :lol:

 

Newt

 

 

And that reminds me of another lawyer story.

 

My former neighbor ("Bill") was a Deputy DA for Orange County CA.

You know - -  the guys who work hand-in-hand with LEOs to prosecute the bad guys.

He was also the "main-man" who prosecuted child-abuse cases in the county.

 

Heck of a nice guy, very mellow.  We would shoot the bull about "stuff" frequently.

One day (1980's) we were chatting after he had just returned from visiting his in-laws in Arizona.

 

He related the following:

Heading back, while still in AZ, he was stopped by the AZ Highway Patrol for speeding.

The trooper came to the driver's side window and asked for the usual documents - which in Bill's case

also included telling the trooper he had a CCW permit AND was "carrying".

So the trooper was well aware Bill had a CCW and *why*. (He asked - as in CA CCW permits to/for citizens

are very unusual).

 

While the trooper was telling him what the infraction was.....

an HDT - Commercial tractor & trailer - blew by in the lane next to where they were stopped  - -

with the usual wind gust as it passed - which, as might be expected - rocked Bill's car.

 

Bill said something like, "Wow - You could get killed standing out there".

Which was very typical for Bill - he was a "gee-whiz" kind of guy.

 

Bill said the trooper got *very* huffy - acted like Bill's statement was some kind of a threat.

No further discussion - trooper writes the cite, says -  "sign here!".

 

Asked Bill what he did.

Answer:  "I was speeding, so I signed the citation."  (Might add - he paid the fine via mail).

 

Different strokes for different folks.

 

.