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Space heater for boondocking in a teardrop


Bev9219

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Hi Al,

I agree that with any very small enclosed space I would not use any unvented heater.

 

I owned an Olympian Catalytic heater and have the Olympian paid for tests in an enclosed space. CO is produced and adequate ventilation is for that as well as CO and other combustion products. When I was out in Fairfield CA in 2000 we found a used one and went to their HQ there and had it tested free of charge in case we needed a new mat. I asked for and received their test results for all their heater and have them on file. All the tests were done with 24 square inches of ventilation, not a cracked window. Here is a scan of one of the test pages stamped and official. I also have several inches of documents from another manufacturer that the company decided to bury.

 

attachicon.gifCatalytic tests (Small).jpg

 

Any fossil fuel or gas fossil fuel creates CO2, CO and other toxic contaminants.

 

Here is the same time period tests from the CPSC:

http://www.cpsc.gov/PageFiles/103972/CO03.pdf

 

Saying that the danger is o2 depletion is only half the story. The oxygen depletion results in more incomplete burning of the Propane resulting in much higher hydrocarbon production. But before that happens there is plenty of CO, CO2 and water being produced.

 

What one would like to believe, and the facts are sometimes in conflict. These can be used safely but many folks have no clue about maintenance and burn colors and soot production as well as the effects of altitude on the burn efficiancy of any fossil fuel. Be expert and you'll do as I did, use a ceramic electric heater.

 

Hope that helps.

 

Safe Travels.

I am amused and puzzled every time I see the above Consumer Products test quoted. I keep getting stuck on the "test chamber"

 

Experiments were conducted inside a 100 ft3 test chamber with an interior height of 6.6 ft, a

width of 3.9 ft, and a depth of 3.9 ft.

That is a box 4 feet wide, 4 feet deep and 6 1/2 feet tall, just about big enough for me to stand up in with a little room to move around in. I guess I could put a chair in there and use my laptop or cell phone, but not much else. I wouldn't call that a reasonable or fair test.

 

The other document showing 6PPM of CO, I don't even believe would register on most CO detectors in an RV, much less cause an alarm.

 

Bottom line, I don't see where the danger is from documentation provided.

 

I wonder just how much CO inhaled by smoking a single cigarette, much less a pack a day habit.

 

Al & Sharon
2006 Winnebago Journey 36G 
2020 Chevy Colorado Toad
San Antonio, TX

http://downtheroadaroundthebend.blogspot.com/

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Hi Al,

I agree that with any very small enclosed space I would not use any unvented heater.

 

I owned an Olympian Catalytic heater and have the Olympian paid for tests in an enclosed space. CO is produced and adequate ventilation is for that as well as CO and other combustion products. When I was out in Fairfield CA in 2000 we found a used one and went to their HQ there and had it tested free of charge in case we needed a new mat. I asked for and received their test results for all their heater and have them on file. All the tests were done with 24 square inches of ventilation, not a cracked window. Here is a scan of one of the test pages stamped and official. I also have several inches of documents from another manufacturer that the company decided to bury.

 

attachicon.gifCatalytic tests (Small).jpg

 

Any fossil fuel or gas fossil fuel creates CO2, CO and other toxic contaminants.

 

Here is the same time period tests from the CPSC:

http://www.cpsc.gov/PageFiles/103972/CO03.pdf

 

Saying that the danger is o2 depletion is only half the story. The oxygen depletion results in more incomplete burning of the Propane resulting in much higher hydrocarbon production. But before that happens there is plenty of CO, CO2 and water being produced.

 

What one would like to believe, and the facts are sometimes in conflict. These can be used safely but many folks have no clue about maintenance and burn colors and soot production as well as the effects of altitude on the burn efficiancy of any fossil fuel. Be expert and you'll do as I did, use a ceramic electric heater.

 

Hope that helps.

 

Safe Travels.

A "cracked window" in our bedroom would be about 16" by 1.5" would be 24 sq in and opening the ceiling vent a couple of inches would provide the ventilation quoted.

Al & Sharon
2006 Winnebago Journey 36G 
2020 Chevy Colorado Toad
San Antonio, TX

http://downtheroadaroundthebend.blogspot.com/

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Al,

Here is my article on my website: http://home.earthlink.net/~derekgore/rvroadiervfulltimingwhatisitreallylike/id110.html

 

Here are others:

 

http://www.energyvanguard.com/blog-building-science-HERS-BPI/bid/36230/Unvented-Natural-Gas-Space-Heaters-Should-Be-Removed

 

http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/energy-solutions/avoid-unvented-gas-heaters

 

http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/building-science/ventless-gas-fireplace-doesn-t-belong-your-home

 

http://www.campbelldaviesllc.com/14_Ventless_heaters.html

 

http://www.dukefire.com/articles/article/3941815/60120.htm

 

 

 

Video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3x82Cipf3c

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2UVB2_3f-g

 

While called vent free, they are actually room vented.

 

Your mind is made up, and I hope that decision continues to work out for you. My decision in my home and RVs is to never vent combustion by products inside any space I live in, let alone while sleeping. I prefer the outside vented furnace or an electric ceramic heater inside. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

Safe Travels!

 

I also support the right of tobacco smokers to inhale whatever they want too.

RV/Derek
http://www.rvroadie.com Email on the bottom of my website page.
Retired AF 1971-1998


When you see a worthy man, endeavor to emulate him. When you see an unworthy man, look inside yourself. - Confucius

 

“Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.” ... Voltaire

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In such a small space I would worry about the catalytic heaters... They need venting and air replacement... You might check out the marine heaters like this: http://dickinsonmarine.com/product/newport-p9000-propane-fireplace/

 

They are pricy but vent to the outside and also come in a solid fuel (pellet) model if you don't have LP

 

 

Pricey = Yikes!!

 

~

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Al,

Here is my article on my website: http://home.earthlink.net/~derekgore/rvroadiervfulltimingwhatisitreallylike/id110.html

 

Here are others:

 

http://www.energyvanguard.com/blog-building-science-HERS-BPI/bid/36230/Unvented-Natural-Gas-Space-Heaters-Should-Be-Removed

 

http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/energy-solutions/avoid-unvented-gas-heaters

 

http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/building-science/ventless-gas-fireplace-doesn-t-belong-your-home

 

http://www.campbelldaviesllc.com/14_Ventless_heaters.html

 

http://www.dukefire.com/articles/article/3941815/60120.htm

 

 

 

Video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3x82Cipf3c

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2UVB2_3f-g

 

While called vent free, they are actually room vented.

 

Your mind is made up, and I hope that decision continues to work out for you. My decision in my home and RVs is to never vent combustion by products inside any space I live in, let alone while sleeping. I prefer the outside vented furnace or an electric ceramic heater inside. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

Safe Travels!

 

I also support the right of tobacco smokers to inhale whatever they want too.

Derek,

While you say "my mind is made up" you seem to totally ignore that "your mind is made up.

 

Let me compliment you on your well written (well at least down to the last part where you seem to go into scare references) article. Much of your article does a good job of detailing and informing about the very important things like adequate ventilation and the water vapor produced as well as the importance of CO detectors.

 

What I don't understand is your need to provide the numerous links which have nothing to do with with the catalytic heaters most of us use in RV's. The links seem to be little more than an attempt to scare people away from catalytic heaters.

 

Especially concerning to me is the need to include the anecdotal letters of all the horror stories of heater used in homes. Most of the stories seem to admit they did no research and probably didn't read the warning which I assume came with the appliances. These appliances are not the heaters that people put in their RVs.

 

In spite of your well written article and because of your need to include a bunch of scare stories via the links you include, I can only conclude that you have your mind made up that catalytic heaters have no place in RV's.

 

However to those of us who park our RV's much or most of the time in places w/o electric hookups we wouldn't be without our catalytic heaters. Because of our choice of camping preferences we don't have the option to use the electric heaters.

 

While I can't speak for others, I have paid close attention to requirements of proper ventilation and moisture build up, as well as the fire hazards.

Al & Sharon
2006 Winnebago Journey 36G 
2020 Chevy Colorado Toad
San Antonio, TX

http://downtheroadaroundthebend.blogspot.com/

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Al,

I stated on the previous page: "These can be used safely but many folks have no clue about maintenance and burn colors and soot production as well as the effects of altitude on the burn efficiency of any fossil fuel. Be expert and you'll do as I did, use a ceramic electric heater."

 

I will state again as I have said many times. Anything that puts more carcinogens and CO Carbon dioxide, and other pollutants than second hand tobacco smoke in my breathing air is not allowed in my home or RV.

 

Yes the Catalytic heaters are less offensive but you can't change the results of combustion/oxidation of a carbon fossil fuel to no pollution.

 

It is obvious I have my mind made up. NO room vented heater burning fossil fuel combustion products allowed inside my vehicles, home, or RVs without an outside exhaust fan. That's why I said we will have to agree to disagree. I also posted the lab results on the previous page. If they scared you well then you have a decision to make. If not then we have to agree to disagree that all carbon based fuel produces anything that is harmful, which I know they do. At which point each chooses to call their limits is up to each. For some the headaches and flu like symptoms are acceptable.

 

I'm happy to agree to disagree.

 

Again, yes, the science all says don't breathe the combustion by products of any fossil fuel or even wood which is mostly carbon too. I never said my mind is not made up. I did the research years ago and still keep up with any new data.

 

I recommend electric heaters. These forums are for info, and where folks disagree, for all the facts to be available for both sides. That's why I said we will just have to agree to disagree. Because your mind is made up. Mine was years ago. An AF career does that to folks who have to learn about these things to survive around jets and exhausts, fuels, benzene and hydrazine plants, airborne lead from bullets and pollution from powder residues and gases in indoor ranges. Saving a few bucks is not worth the risk for me. It is for you. I can live with that. (pun int.) ;)

RV/Derek
http://www.rvroadie.com Email on the bottom of my website page.
Retired AF 1971-1998


When you see a worthy man, endeavor to emulate him. When you see an unworthy man, look inside yourself. - Confucius

 

“Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.” ... Voltaire

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This is another opinion. We all have them. Catalytic propane heaters are very safe if used properly. We've used one for over 16 years. Many hundreds of RVers use them safely. Get out into the boondocking world and you'll find they are used extensively.

Full-timed for 16 Years
Traveled 8 yr in a 2004 Newmar Dutch Star 40' Motorhome
and 8 yr in a 33' Travel Supreme 5th Wheel

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  • 1 month later...

We have a large teardrop (I know kind of an oxymoron). One teardrop owner nearly died from a too tight tear and that was with out any source of combustion. A solution a couple of us have come up with is the use of an Eberspacher/Espar heater diesel fired. Mine is housed in an aluminum case and fed from a outboard fuel tank.

The second method which has also been used by a couple of us that have water heaters is in my case a solar hot water pump hooked to an automotive heater core with a computer case fan controlled by a thermostat. I have mine set up with quick disconnects so that I can leave it home.

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The problem with catalytic heaters is anoxia (lack of oxygen) in a small space with no ventilation. Olympian Wave states you should have at least 3 square inches open to permit fresh air to replace the oxygen uxed. You should have both propane and CO warning systems just in case. These should be tested regularly to make sure they do work.

 

People have died in small enclosed tents with catalytic heaters but these tents were basicallly airtight and the oxygen was used up.

 

We use an Olympian 8 in our 34' fifth wheel and it will keep the main cabin warm at 10 degrees F. We are considering getting a Roadtrek to complement our travels as full timers. We would probably have the propane lines plumbed so that we can utilize and Olympian 3 (as suggested several times in this thread for a small tear drop).

 

Tear drops are undoubtedly far more air tight than a fifth wheel with three slides and you will have to have make sure that you have the ventilation.

 

Reed and Elaine

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We use a buddy heater before going to bed and in the morning to warm up the MH...with windows cracked to allow ventilation. I do not trust it while we are sleeping. Plus we have 2 co detectors.

<p>....JIM and LINDA......2001 American Eagle 40 '.towing a GMC Sierra 1500 4X4 with RZR in the rear. 1999 JEEP Cherokee that we tow as well.

IT IS A CONTENTED MAN WHO CAN APPRECIATE THE SCENERY ALONG A DETOUR.

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We use a buddy heater before going to bed and in the morning to warm up the MH...with windows cracked to allow ventilation. I do not trust it while we are sleeping. Plus we have 2 co detectors.

 

That is what I do also......Notice the statement about TWO CO detectors!!!

 

CO detectors do fail after a period of time.

 

Oh, JUST to make sure...we sleep with the window cracked during the night.

Vladimr Steblina

Retired Forester...exploring the public lands.

usbackroads.blogspot.com

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Bev9219,

 

I recommend looking into the 12 volt mattress heating pads that truckers use. A Group 27 or Group 31 12V deep cycle battery should easily run one all night in cold weather and maybe several nights in moderate weather.

 

The folks that use them speak very highly of the comfortable warmth that they provide. They are not very expensive.

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Bev9219,

 

I recommend looking into the 12 volt mattress heating pads that truckers use. A Group 27 or Group 31 12V deep cycle battery should easily run one all night in cold weather and maybe several nights in moderate weather.

 

The folks that use them speak very highly of the comfortable warmth that they provide. They are not very expensive.

 

The one we have pulls about 2.5 amp of 12V DC power. or about 25AH in overnight usage. I bought it several years ago so don't know where I got or the brand.

Al & Sharon
2006 Winnebago Journey 36G 
2020 Chevy Colorado Toad
San Antonio, TX

http://downtheroadaroundthebend.blogspot.com/

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