John Parker Posted June 13, 2016 Report Share Posted June 13, 2016 I just found out that last year Devil's Tower National Monument actually replaced their threaded water faucets with unthreaded. A camp host said they had problems with backflow contamination of their whole water system. They don't want anyone filling their rv's at the faucets with a water stealer adapter either. A backflow preventer is not enough. For now, they say you can make arrangements with them to fill you at their separate faucet with their hose. Are other National Parks and Forrests doing this too? Is this some kind of national program? Isn't taking our rv water supply drastic? Wouldn't a $7 Home Depot blackflow preventer (a lot cheaper if they buy them in bulk) and a spray bottle of bleach solution be enough? I'm getting ready to make some calls. John Parker John & Connie Parker 2001 Ford Bounder 33' Motorhome 2016 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 towed Lifetime Members SKP #96350 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dutch_12078 Posted June 13, 2016 Report Share Posted June 13, 2016 They've already said a back flow preventer isn't enough, and bleach solutions are unreliable depending on how long they've been sitting around. Without more information regarding the contamination issue involved, it's difficult to say what other alternatives might be used beyond a complete ban on hooking up. Our coach is equipped for suction filling from a water jug in situations like that. Dutch 2001 GBM Landau 34' Class A F-53 Chassis, Triton V10, TST TPMS 2011 Toyota RAV4 4WD/Remco pump ReadyBrute Elite tow bar/brake system Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobsallyh Posted June 13, 2016 Report Share Posted June 13, 2016 John Parker, the Forest Service campgrounds we frequent, for as long as we have been going to them, have the smooth spigots. Two of the cgs I can think of quickly have a one regular threaded hose bib. We are in the Yellowstone area for apprx. seven weeks and IF I can remember while we are in the park I'll see what I see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirk W Posted June 13, 2016 Report Share Posted June 13, 2016 I always believed that the standard "back-flow preventer" did the job it is there for, but suppose that if one should fail.......... I do know that as of a couple of weeks ago, the COE still has water available and also some campgrounds with full hookups. Good travelin !...............KirkFull-time 11+ years...... Now seasonal travelers.Kirk & Pam's Great RV Adventure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pugsly Posted June 13, 2016 Report Share Posted June 13, 2016 I've run into a few locations with unthreaded faucets but they were shared / central points. I always assumed it was to stop someone from being a hog at a shared resource. I've used a water bandit in those locations. In areas where I have pulled water from a stream / running water I use suction, which I am set up for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vladimir Posted June 13, 2016 Report Share Posted June 13, 2016 I just found out that last year Devil's Tower National Monument actually replaced their threaded water faucets with unthreaded. A camp host said they had problems with backflow contamination of their whole water system. They don't want anyone filling their rv's at the faucets with a water stealer adapter either. A backflow preventer is not enough. For now, they say you can make arrangements with them to fill you at their separate faucet with their hose. Are other National Parks and Forrests doing this too? Is this some kind of national program? Isn't taking our rv water supply drastic? Wouldn't a $7 Home Depot blackflow preventer (a lot cheaper if they buy them in bulk) and a spray bottle of bleach solution be enough? I'm getting ready to make some calls. John Parker The National Forests switched to the unthreaded faucets sometime in the 1990's I believe. When I took over the Recreation program on the Forest that was one of the first questions I asked....replacing the smooth faucets with threaded faucets. I was told it was a human health issue, and that it was NOT going to happen. Here are the standard for the consumer end of water systems to meet minimum Forest Service campground standards. Notice the threaded faucets statement. 7. Hand pumps, fountains, and hydrants All units free of grease or residue All units secure and drip-free Catch basins (drains) free of food particles, soaps, grease, debris, standing water, and functioning properly All fixtures and facilities meet applicable standards; threaded faucets removed Fixtures disinfected as necessary Water tests meet applicable standards Forest Service water systems are tested on a regular basis for water quality. Bad tests are not that uncommon and almost always related to faucets particularly threaded ones. The first bad test is usually no problem it just means a retest. Bad things happen with a second bad test. For example, that is when I was TOLD and all of the sudden there are lots of people mucking around the campground and Ranger District!! I really don't know how bad the problem is in reality, but the monitoring mechanism, the water quality tests, do show a problem. I believe in ten years we only had two campgrounds fail the two test rule. One had to post a boil water advisory. During my tenure we did examine all our water systems and put in backflow preventers. That still was not enough to give the ok for threaded faucets. If you search "Water Systems Operators Guide--Forest Service" and "Cleaning Recreation Sites--Forest Service" that will give you the two documents that Ranger Districts use for the developed campground management. They are pdf documents and downloadable. The Forest Service standards come from the http://San Dimas Technology and Development Center. They have a very good reputation for common sense and helpfulness to the Ranger Districts so their recommendations tend to get implemented. You can call and ask to speak to the Sanitary Engineer for water systems. I am sure they would be willing to talk to you and explain the rationale for removing threaded faucets. I would focus the discussion on how RV'ers can fill their water tanks in Forest Service campgrounds. Remember the threaded faucets are a solution that does NOT work in the context of water quality. The Forest Service does have dump stations with fresh water fills so I am sure this issue has probably been raised with the Sanitary Engineer. The really odd part is that it took the National Park Service this long to remove threaded faucets!! However, the Forest Service is the only agency with a research arm and a development center. Hope this helps. Good luck....and may you have more success than I did. AND do call the San Dimas Technology and Development Center....they should be able to help you. Post as to how it goes with them. Vladimr Steblina Retired Forester...exploring the public lands. usbackroads.blogspot.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Parker Posted June 13, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 13, 2016 Vladimir: Fantastic post! I am so glad for your information. What a great starting point. I will research this and call the Sanitary Engineer for Water Systems. I have a few projects I have to get done first, but I will get to the bottom and post my results. It sounds like they have done their homework, but I want to make sense of it in my mind. I have heard about the common contamination problem on threads, but a strong spray solution of bleach should take care of spreading that, perhaps with a sign saying spray with bleach first or use at your own risk? Also, an inexpensive (cheaper than another faucet) backflow preventer permanently attached to the faucet should prevent contamination of the whole system. If they don't work, why are they required in rv parks in most major cities? There must be 10,000 of them in use in Phoenix alone. What about the cheap backflow preventers on sprinkler systems in so many yards. I believe they are required by national zoning codes. Then there are the tall water faucets at dump stations. I believe they are designed to prevent backflow too. I want everyone to be safe. And I will abide by the science, but this doesn't make sense to me or anyone I have spoken with yet. I want to make sure no one is just being overcareful, and throwing the baby out with the bathwater. They have to balance rv'ers needs into the equation. If not, I can see us coming to the point of separate pay rv water fills, run by concessionaires. Thanks, John Parker John & Connie Parker 2001 Ford Bounder 33' Motorhome 2016 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 towed Lifetime Members SKP #96350 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanNJanice Posted June 13, 2016 Report Share Posted June 13, 2016 Vladimir: Fantastic post! I am so glad for your information. What a great starting point. I will research this and call the Sanitary Engineer for Water Systems. I have a few projects I have to get done first, but I will get to the bottom and post my results. It sounds like they have done their homework, but I want to make sense of it in my mind. I have heard about the common contamination problem on threads, but a strong spray solution of bleach should take care of spreading that, perhaps with a sign saying spray with bleach first or use at your own risk? Also, an inexpensive (cheaper than another faucet) backflow preventer permanently attached to the faucet should prevent contamination of the whole system. If they don't work, why are they required in rv parks in most major cities? There must be 10,000 of them in use in Phoenix alone. What about the cheap backflow preventers on sprinkler systems in so many yards. I believe they are required by national zoning codes. Then there are the tall water faucets at dump stations. I believe they are designed to prevent backflow too. I want everyone to be safe. And I will abide by the science, but this doesn't make sense to me or anyone I have spoken with yet. I want to make sure no one is just being overcareful, and throwing the baby out with the bathwater. They have to balance rv'ers needs into the equation. If not, I can see us coming to the point of separate pay rv water fills, run by concessionaires. Thanks, John Parker Agreed. IMO this is a classic overreaction to a very rare issue. If it were really that bad, there would be no full hookup campgrounds (either private or public) anywhere in the country. 2015 F250 PSD 2015 Jayco Jayflight 27RLS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dzwiss Posted June 14, 2016 Report Share Posted June 14, 2016 It's like the lazy teacher who punishes the whole class because one child is misbehaving. 2019 Airstream Flying Cloud 27FB 2011 Ford F350 CC SRW "Be thankful we're not getting all the government we're paying for." Will Rogers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2gypsies Posted June 14, 2016 Report Share Posted June 14, 2016 Another issue we've run into while volunteering in parks is that people actually take the backflow preventers. Why? Never could understand it. I really doubt concessionaires will charge for water! As full-timers this has never been an issue for us. We always traveled with plenty of water onboard because we never knew if we'd be boondocking or not. When we used dump stations there usually was potable water available. Full-timed for 16 YearsTraveled 8 yr in a 2004 Newmar Dutch Star 40' Motorhome and 8 yr in a 33' Travel Supreme 5th Wheel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjwicklund Posted June 14, 2016 Report Share Posted June 14, 2016 It's like the lazy teacher who punishes the whole class because one child is misbehaving. Its the governments duty to punish the 98% for the sins of the 2%. John 2017 F350 King Ranch DRW 6.7 4.10 B&W hitch 2017 DRV MS 36RSSB3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirk W Posted June 14, 2016 Report Share Posted June 14, 2016 Another issue we've run into while volunteering in parks is that people actually take the backflow preventers. Why? Never could understand it. While the times we have been campground hosts, I'm not aware of any loss of the backflow preventers, not only do I not understand why one would steal one, there are such devices that are anti-theft in that there is a setscrew in the end that threads onto the hydrant so that it can be locked on, rather permanently. We had those on all of the sites at Angastura State Park (SD) where we hosted in 2014. I always figured it was mostly to prevent accidental removal from someone putting the water hose on too tightly and taking it by accident. Good travelin !...............KirkFull-time 11+ years...... Now seasonal travelers.Kirk & Pam's Great RV Adventure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dutch_12078 Posted June 14, 2016 Report Share Posted June 14, 2016 A couple of times over the years, I've had a backflow preventer start to come off when removing my hose or pressure regulator from the faucet. I've screwed it back on and tightened it with pliers, but I can see how someone might not notice that it came off in that situation. Dutch 2001 GBM Landau 34' Class A F-53 Chassis, Triton V10, TST TPMS 2011 Toyota RAV4 4WD/Remco pump ReadyBrute Elite tow bar/brake system Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobsallyh Posted June 14, 2016 Report Share Posted June 14, 2016 We have been in RV parks/CGs where some sites had backflow preventers on and some would be missing. Just last week we were in North Bingham County RV Park in Shelly, ID. No matter what I did I couldn't get a leak, not a drip, between the hose bib and the backflow preventer to stop. So off the backflow preventer came, laid it on top of the 4x4 supporting the hose bib. When we left I did screw it back on the hose bib. New washers, nothing I tried would stop the leak. We are now in Island Park, ID. and there are no backflow preventers and that is the way it has been since we have been coming here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Parker Posted June 14, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 14, 2016 As full-timers this has never been an issue for us. We always traveled with plenty of water onboard because we never knew if we'd be boondocking or not. When we used dump stations there usually was potable water available. Our experience is that many dump stations, especially at gas stations, do not have potable water. Albuquerque comes to mind. Free overnighting at the casinos, many gas stations with free dump, but potable water was hard to find. John & Connie Parker 2001 Ford Bounder 33' Motorhome 2016 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 towed Lifetime Members SKP #96350 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Parker Posted June 14, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 14, 2016 It really gives me the willies to see faucets without backflow preventers. If I can find them cheap enough in bulk, I may become a "Johnnie Backflow" [as in Johnnie Appleseed] and leave them on faucets across the country. There is a break-off screw on them so they would be very hard to remove again. John & Connie Parker 2001 Ford Bounder 33' Motorhome 2016 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 towed Lifetime Members SKP #96350 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanNJanice Posted June 14, 2016 Report Share Posted June 14, 2016 Maybe I am missing something. What problem is the back flow preventer supposed to address? For example on my trailer the water fill is about 5 ft off the ground. Much higher than say the toilet inlet. Assuming my fresh water tank was not contaminated in some way, how would this pose a threat to anyone else? It is not like the black water could somehow run uphill and come out the fresh water fill line. 2015 F250 PSD 2015 Jayco Jayflight 27RLS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RBH Posted June 14, 2016 Report Share Posted June 14, 2016 Just pulled into Quartz Flats NFS campground in Montana. Community water bib with back-flow preventor installed, for what its worth. filled my tank. Was at Big Bend a few years ago and got yelled at for using a water bandit. Reason given; no back-flow prevention. I think most if not all national parks insist on you using the potable water spigot at the dump station. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RBH Posted June 14, 2016 Report Share Posted June 14, 2016 Maybe I am missing something. What problem is the back flow preventer supposed to address? For example on my trailer the water fill is about 5 ft off the ground. Much higher than say the toilet inlet. Assuming my fresh water tank was not contaminated in some way, how would this pose a threat to anyone else? It is not like the black water could somehow run uphill and come out the fresh water fill line. If the water supply system were to ever lose pressure the water in your hose which COULD be contaminated since its already left the bib COULD flow back into the supply system. A lot of ifs but municipalities can't be too cautious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I'mdonewiththis forum Posted June 15, 2016 Report Share Posted June 15, 2016 It could also be that someone is trying to flush their black or grey tank and at that particulate moment there could be a malfunction in the water supply and cause the water to literally suck everything back into the water system. Then you have a serious health problem especially if the contaminants make it back into the well. Most if not all plumbing code authorities require them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pappy Yokum Posted June 15, 2016 Report Share Posted June 15, 2016 I just found out that last year Devil's Tower National Monument actually replaced their threaded water faucets with unthreaded. A camp host said they had problems with backflow contamination of their whole water system. They don't want anyone filling their rv's at the faucets with a water stealer adapter either. A backflow preventer is not enough. For now, they say you can make arrangements with them to fill you at their separate faucet with their hose. Are other National Parks and Forrests doing this too? Is this some kind of national program? Isn't taking our rv water supply drastic? Wouldn't a $7 Home Depot blackflow preventer (a lot cheaper if they buy them in bulk) and a spray bottle of bleach solution be enough? I'm getting ready to make some calls. John Parker Guess the sky is falling, John! Well (no pun intended) if it makes you feel better - make those calls. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2gypsies Posted June 15, 2016 Report Share Posted June 15, 2016 Keep in mind, also, that in many areas of the country the water supply may not be as some are used to in other parts. We've been to some public parks that really discourage you from filling your RV tank with water and have seen signs to that effect. Bonito national forest campground in Flagstaff comes to mind - a high favorite of ours. That's why we always carry at least a 1/2 tank of water with us. When we can easily fill up, we do that and it comes in handy for the times you can't. It really does not hurt the fuel mileage. Full-timed for 16 YearsTraveled 8 yr in a 2004 Newmar Dutch Star 40' Motorhome and 8 yr in a 33' Travel Supreme 5th Wheel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I'mdonewiththis forum Posted June 15, 2016 Report Share Posted June 15, 2016 There is also a real possibility that making the hose hook up more difficult could be a CYA type thing. If you can't hook up your hose then you can't blame them for a water leak in your unit, causing gastro issues, contaminating your water system, or any other water related problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kb0zke Posted June 15, 2016 Report Share Posted June 15, 2016 Back to the original question: How do I fill my water tank if I can't screw the hose to the faucet? Second question: Should I carry a backflow prevention device? They aren't all that expensive (<$10 from Amazon). I'm thinking that many of our preferred parks (COE, State) generally have them permanently attached. We're in a city campground right now, and I don't think there is one on the faucet. I'll pay attention to it when I go out after supper to fill the tank. David Lininger, kb0zke 1993 Foretravel U300 40' (sold) 2022 Grand Design Reflection 315RLTS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vladimir Posted June 16, 2016 Report Share Posted June 16, 2016 http://www.campingworld.com/shopping/item/water-thief/4690 Vladimr Steblina Retired Forester...exploring the public lands. usbackroads.blogspot.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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