nana25k Posted June 21, 2016 Report Share Posted June 21, 2016 It long story please hang with me Last Feb we had to replace our invertor Contacted Zantrex and was assured that we could use the Freedom 2012 2000watt puresine First issue is that the old Zantrex was wired 2 in 2 out The new one is one in 2 out We were told by Zantrex to install a breaker to make it work and were also assured by an Invertor installer in Tennessee this was fine A few weeks ago we were drycamping and I turned on the microwave (850 watt output) and everything immediately shut down (television was on) Note: our old modified sine wave ran it just fine Also the furnace would not start We have isolated each 6v Trojan t-105 battery and each one reads between 6.3 to 6.4 volts and Ron is religious about their care and tbey are only 2 1\2 years old Tonight we ran a test 1. Batteries metered at 12.9 however the power control panel stated batteries are at 13.5 2. Started the microwave and meter on batteries dropped to 11.9, microwave immeditely shut down. The control panel stated low voltage. (It set for a low voltage of 10) 3. with microwave off the batteries returned immediately back at 12.9 by meter but the control panel read batteries at 11.5 We are totally stumped What the heck is happening To be fair I hate the new control panel. It requires a degree in electrical engineering to set up Although I have spoken to Zantrex customer support and hopefully its correct Any ideas whats wrong?? Now to be fair I'm not an electrical guru so please help by keeping it as elementary as possible Hopefully Jack Mayer or Stan Miller will chime in Ron & LindaClass of 20072000 Monaco Diplomat 2005 Honda Element"Do what you can, with what you have, where you are" Theodore Roosevelt"We can't control the wind, but we can adjust our sail""When man gave up his freedom to roam the earth, he gave up his soul for a conditioned ego that is bound by time and the fear of losing its attachments." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronbo Posted June 21, 2016 Report Share Posted June 21, 2016 How many batteries do you have? What all is running off the batteries? Do you have a trametric? How are you charging your batteries? Ron C. 2013 Dynamax Trilogy 3850 D3 2000 Kenworth T2000 Optimus Prime Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirk W Posted June 21, 2016 Report Share Posted June 21, 2016 Interesting that the batteries seem to have checked out, since we spoke. I'd say that what you have is pretty solid as the 1V drop while drawing power to the inverter that supplies and 850 watt microwave (roughly 7a/ac or 70a/dc) would not be excessive, in my opinion. To be fair I hate the new control panel. It requires a degree in electrical engineering to set upAlthough I have spoken to Zantrex customer support and hopefully its correct Is the control panel on/for the Zantex where you read the 11.5V as compared to the battery's 12.9v? Since you have solar, is it safe to assume that you have a totally independent control panel for that? Does it show battery voltage and if so, what is the reading? As I told you last night, I have very little inverter experience so hopefully Jack Myer or Stanley Miller will read this and join in as I'm sure that they would know more than I. Eve so, to me it sounds like a problem with the Zantrex control panel. Good travelin !...............KirkFull-time 11+ years...... Now seasonal travelers.Kirk & Pam's Great RV Adventure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nana25k Posted June 21, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 21, 2016 Robo. We have 4 6v batteries. When we did the test only the usual parasitic draws from refers etc nothing plugged in to any outlets etc. Water heater and refer were turned off.. during the original incident those items were on gas and the only thing on was the TV. When we are dry camping we are using our solar panels and 7500watt Genny Our unit is a inverter/ charger As stated before everything worked perfectly in this coach with the 16 year old original inverter/charger. This all has started since we replaced the inverter.. Kirk:yes the control panel is on and yes there is an independent panel for the solar. It tells me if the batteries are charging, charged, or over temp and the voltage. The voltage reading on it is generally close to the same, maybe a half volt higher than the Zantrex SCP. However during the rest last night it was reading the same as the actual battery numbers. On an added note: I do remember that we we also had to order an adapter that would connect the new SCP to the existing communication wire. Our installer put in a new wire be cause he said the old wire would not connect to the adapter Ron & LindaClass of 20072000 Monaco Diplomat 2005 Honda Element"Do what you can, with what you have, where you are" Theodore Roosevelt"We can't control the wind, but we can adjust our sail""When man gave up his freedom to roam the earth, he gave up his soul for a conditioned ego that is bound by time and the fear of losing its attachments." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hemsteadc Posted June 21, 2016 Report Share Posted June 21, 2016 I cannot find a Zantrex (Xantrex?) inverter model 2012. What is '2 in 2 out'? Install a breaker..where? Furnace has nothing to do with inverter You're not getting correct voltage readings. No batteries I know of will return to 12.9 at rest, unless there is a charger on them. It sounds like the 11.5 reading is correct, and your inverter is shutting down with low input DC voltage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nana25k Posted June 21, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 21, 2016 http://www.xantrex.com/power-products/inverter-chargers/freedom-sw-12v_newgen.aspx Sorry I posted wrong one. The old one had 2 wire in and 2 going out. We are a 50amp rig The new one had one only one in. So the new one has a 30 amp (I think ) breaker installed on the input side . This was done via Zantrex instruction and here is the reason. If the new invertor was installed with out the breaker we would only have had 110 on some of the outlet and that was not acceptable as the original old one powered all of them. I do know that the gas furnace works fine when plugged in and will not work otherwise We have multiple solar panels and it was broad daylight. The panel for the solar was showing it as charging The 11.5 is what the invertor control panel read If each battery is reading 6+ volts, even after we did the test then where is the low voltage coming from Ron & LindaClass of 20072000 Monaco Diplomat 2005 Honda Element"Do what you can, with what you have, where you are" Theodore Roosevelt"We can't control the wind, but we can adjust our sail""When man gave up his freedom to roam the earth, he gave up his soul for a conditioned ego that is bound by time and the fear of losing its attachments." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hemsteadc Posted June 21, 2016 Report Share Posted June 21, 2016 Has this setup ever worked? What are you using to measure the 6+ volts? You used to have a 50a inverter (2 in )and now you have a 30? If so, why? Who did the install? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nana25k Posted June 21, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 21, 2016 Ron used a high end volt meter ( he is a former aircraft electrician so on that level he understands how to use his equipment but because of a recent illness now he has trouble thinking through the trouble shooting with out frustration ) The new inverter has run all the 110 such as loads on outlets, TV etc with no issue. This issue with the microwave happened the first time I attempted to use it on just the inverter Frankly I will admit stupidity and didn't understand I was buying a 30amp unit. I specifically asked the customer service rep at Zantrex what was the unit to replace our old one. While he suggested the 3000 watt was a good idea he also stated that the 2000 watt was fine. He never told us we would have any issue. Frankly when it arrived and the recommended mobile repair person ( who not only works on RV electrical but no at be electrical in a very boast oriented community) realized it was one in and not 2, his helper had already removed the cable knockouts. The vendor of course refused to allow us to exchange it for the 3000 watt with an upcharge because it was now " used". It was very cold, we needed to keep the batteries charged so we needed to use the breaker work around. Maybe I'm just expecting too much of this inverter Ron & LindaClass of 20072000 Monaco Diplomat 2005 Honda Element"Do what you can, with what you have, where you are" Theodore Roosevelt"We can't control the wind, but we can adjust our sail""When man gave up his freedom to roam the earth, he gave up his soul for a conditioned ego that is bound by time and the fear of losing its attachments." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hemsteadc Posted June 21, 2016 Report Share Posted June 21, 2016 So, the first time you tried running a high-wattage load (of any kind) was the microwave? Are the breakers off for your hot water and any converter that may still be in the coach? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nana25k Posted June 21, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 21, 2016 Yes to using high watt load The breakers for the hot waster heater is not off however it is turned off at the switch and we are using the gas for it. There is no other converter in our rig that I am aware of Ron & LindaClass of 20072000 Monaco Diplomat 2005 Honda Element"Do what you can, with what you have, where you are" Theodore Roosevelt"We can't control the wind, but we can adjust our sail""When man gave up his freedom to roam the earth, he gave up his soul for a conditioned ego that is bound by time and the fear of losing its attachments." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hemsteadc Posted June 21, 2016 Report Share Posted June 21, 2016 This sounds like a classic case of low battery, but your data doesn't seem to show that. If the Xantrex panel sees 11.5, then I'd have to trust that, and that's way too low to run high-draw appliances. It's fine for running small stuff. Thanks for your time, I think I"m all out of questions and ideas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nana25k Posted June 21, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 21, 2016 Thanks for asking questions. Ron & LindaClass of 20072000 Monaco Diplomat 2005 Honda Element"Do what you can, with what you have, where you are" Theodore Roosevelt"We can't control the wind, but we can adjust our sail""When man gave up his freedom to roam the earth, he gave up his soul for a conditioned ego that is bound by time and the fear of losing its attachments." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nana25k Posted June 21, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 21, 2016 Stanley and Jack where are you??? Hoping you'd chime in Ron & LindaClass of 20072000 Monaco Diplomat 2005 Honda Element"Do what you can, with what you have, where you are" Theodore Roosevelt"We can't control the wind, but we can adjust our sail""When man gave up his freedom to roam the earth, he gave up his soul for a conditioned ego that is bound by time and the fear of losing its attachments." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronbo Posted June 21, 2016 Report Share Posted June 21, 2016 What size cables from battery to inverter and how long? Ron C. 2013 Dynamax Trilogy 3850 D3 2000 Kenworth T2000 Optimus Prime Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nana25k Posted June 21, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 21, 2016 Not sure but it is in exactly the same footprint so the wire distance would be the same. If there was a need to replace the wires from original I am sure the tech would have upgraded. He was all about making sure thecwirung was above adequate Ron & LindaClass of 20072000 Monaco Diplomat 2005 Honda Element"Do what you can, with what you have, where you are" Theodore Roosevelt"We can't control the wind, but we can adjust our sail""When man gave up his freedom to roam the earth, he gave up his soul for a conditioned ego that is bound by time and the fear of losing its attachments." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hemsteadc Posted June 21, 2016 Report Share Posted June 21, 2016 Any chance the installers messed with the battery cabling so you're running off two batteries instead of 4? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nana25k Posted June 22, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2016 Nope. All batteries are wired correctly Ron & LindaClass of 20072000 Monaco Diplomat 2005 Honda Element"Do what you can, with what you have, where you are" Theodore Roosevelt"We can't control the wind, but we can adjust our sail""When man gave up his freedom to roam the earth, he gave up his soul for a conditioned ego that is bound by time and the fear of losing its attachments." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al F Posted June 22, 2016 Report Share Posted June 22, 2016 First, I want to assure you, running a microwave off of a 2000 watt inverter is not a problem. That is from the inverter perspective. If there is some issue with the cabling or battery capacity going to the inverter that is a different issue. Is there any chance that you have the water heater, 120v element, wired to the inverter? It really shouldn't be. If by some chance the water heater was heating water and you tuned on the microwave, then that would overload the inverter and likely the batteries or the cabling. This is very, very hard to trouble shoot without being there to look at all the readings and variables involved. Al & Sharon 2006 Winnebago Journey 36G 2020 Chevy Colorado Toad San Antonio, TX http://downtheroadaroundthebend.blogspot.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al F Posted June 22, 2016 Report Share Posted June 22, 2016 In your original posting you stated: We have isolated each 6v Trojan t-105 battery and each one reads between 6.3 to 6.4 volts and Ron is religious about their care and tbey are only 2 1\2 years old It sounds like you measured the voltage while the batteries are at rest. Try putting the meter on each battery, one at a time, and operate the microwave while measuring each battery. No need to isolate the battery, just measure across the individual batteries + and - terminal. Each of the batteries should drop about the same amount of voltage from the ~6.4V they have at rest. If any one battery drops significantly you have a bad battery. If you do the test and are not sure of what a "significant" drop is, post the readings here and someone will help analyze. Bottom line, a battery can measure normal voltage until put under a load and then it drops very low. That battery may rebound quickly to normal voltage. Al & Sharon 2006 Winnebago Journey 36G 2020 Chevy Colorado Toad San Antonio, TX http://downtheroadaroundthebend.blogspot.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al F Posted June 22, 2016 Report Share Posted June 22, 2016 I cannot find a Zantrex (Xantrex?) inverter model 2012. What is '2 in 2 out'? Install a breaker..where? Furnace has nothing to do with inverter You're not getting correct voltage readings. No batteries I know of will return to 12.9 at rest, unless there is a charger on them. It sounds like the 11.5 reading is correct, and your inverter is shutting down with low input DC voltage. If a set of batteries are being charged, probably by the converter, and you disconnect the shore power, they WILL read at a higher than nominal voltage, i.e 12.9V. That is why a battery needs to be allowed to rest for several hours after being charged to check the battery voltage. It sounds like they disconnected shore power and then tested the batteries, which would account for the 12.9V reading. Al & Sharon 2006 Winnebago Journey 36G 2020 Chevy Colorado Toad San Antonio, TX http://downtheroadaroundthebend.blogspot.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirk W Posted June 22, 2016 Report Share Posted June 22, 2016 Some really good thinking going on here, but the key quote is from Al. This is very, very hard to trouble shoot without being there to look at all the readings and variables involved. I think that I'd take the approach suggested by Bill B, even though he is one of those darned engineers! If he keeps thinking like that I might even make him an honorary technician for the day! If you record everything measured with the location measured, it is far less difficult to analyze then it is to try and remember everything. Very often the "road map" will begin to show a pattern that will go a long way to point out the problem. And it is also less difficult for you to share the data with those who are trying to help by long distance. Good travelin !...............KirkFull-time 11+ years...... Now seasonal travelers.Kirk & Pam's Great RV Adventure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Mayer Posted June 22, 2016 Report Share Posted June 22, 2016 I've been busy and not on the forum, so missed most of this. You definitely got some good advice, though. If your inverter is set to the default 10.5 volts low voltage shutdown and you are dipping into the low 11's under load you should not be cutting out. There is a timer on that as well - the default is 10 seconds. So if the inverter detects 10.5 volts continuously for 10 seconds it will shut down and switch to shore power/generator power. This is pretty easy to trigger with a weak battery. You need to check the defaults, because MANY installers will change that. The most likely thing is as Al stated above - a single low battery. That would sag the entire bank under load and cause the shutdown. But you should get some time before it shuts down, depending on the delay.....The advice to measure individual batteries is where I'd start. And check for heated wires/loose connections. All of these could cause what you are seeing. If you happen to have a schematic of the system it might be helpful. I'd be interested to see how the wired the replacement of the DI/DO configuration. But that is probably a separate topic. It is not always a simple matter to PROPERLY rewire that configuration, if it was the original setup. Jack & Danielle Mayer #60376 Lifetime Member Living on the road since 2000PLEASE no PM's. Email me. jackdanmayer AT gmail 2016 DRV Houston 44' 5er (we still have it) 2022 New Horizons 43' 5er 2016 Itasca 27N 28' motorhome 2019 Volvo 860, D13 455/1850, 236" wb, I-Shift, battery-based APU No truck at the moment - we use one of our demo units 2016 smart Passion, piggyback on the truck -------------------------------------------------------------------------See our website for info on New Horizons 5th wheels, HDTs as tow vehicles, communications on the road, and use of solar powerwww.jackdanmayer.com Principal in RVH Lifestyles. RVH-Lifestyles.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nana25k Posted June 22, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2016 Wow I'm so happy for all the ideas We are off today for a few days of camping and will start more trouble shooting soon I did call Zantrex yesterday. They feel that even though it is a 30amp inverter it should still run a microwave. They are feeling it may be in the settings and are willing to walk us through total resetting. The installer didn't really set up the control panel and left it to us. As I state the control panel is way more advanced than our other one so its possible, given how complicated the instruction book is, that I really didn't do it right Unfortunately our current parking situation cuts off cell signal inside so I'll have wait until Friday to call them and walk me thru it. I'll post again as soon as do that with the outcome All the trouble shooting directions are invaluable to me and I'm so glad I have all of you to help me, help Ron, with reasoning it out. Now he can do it with out feeling frustrated. Please hang in there with us until we can accimp!ish this. Ron & LindaClass of 20072000 Monaco Diplomat 2005 Honda Element"Do what you can, with what you have, where you are" Theodore Roosevelt"We can't control the wind, but we can adjust our sail""When man gave up his freedom to roam the earth, he gave up his soul for a conditioned ego that is bound by time and the fear of losing its attachments." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nana25k Posted June 25, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2016 The mystery is solved We decided to move on with our drycaming weekend adventure It was family and heck I had my baby brother coming with his RV and his also a technoguy as well as a trucker who fixes his own trucks so how bad could but get? In preparation for leaving Friday morning we awoke to the refer beeping away ( on gas). It had gone off and would not relit. Its done that a time or 2 lately but after driving down the road it would fix itself. I pulled in the slide ( still hooked up to shore power) but then it would not go back out ( the awning didn't roll right) But oh heck we're still going cause its close enough to be safe. All aboard, I went so start it up, ya no not happening. Now I'm mad. Aha!! I forgot the battery boost. Yep that worked. Drove 40 miles to brothers. He pops a fuse out of the refer, puts it back in, BINGO! 30 minutes later were ready to roll. Ah nope, not starting, bat boost again. Brother says just follow me. Down the road into N. Lima, OH into Cal-Ohio ( all things battery, oil etc) By now y'all know where this is going Yep very bad chassis battery! $180.00 later, one super duty battery and off we go This morning was first chance to test our theory that the bad engine battery has been sucking down the house batteries Yes sir that Microwave now works on the inverter!!!! Ron had checked it but when one our battery guy put that $900 mega meter on we knew it was toast. So thank you for all your thoughts and brain power . you are all in valuable sources Ron & LindaClass of 20072000 Monaco Diplomat 2005 Honda Element"Do what you can, with what you have, where you are" Theodore Roosevelt"We can't control the wind, but we can adjust our sail""When man gave up his freedom to roam the earth, he gave up his soul for a conditioned ego that is bound by time and the fear of losing its attachments." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirk W Posted June 25, 2016 Report Share Posted June 25, 2016 So it was a battery problem.......... Just not the battery that was suspected. I guess I don't understand how that happened as the chassis battery should be isolated from the coach batteries except for charging from a running engine or when cross connected by the emergency start switch......................... Good travelin !...............KirkFull-time 11+ years...... Now seasonal travelers.Kirk & Pam's Great RV Adventure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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