RV Death Spiral

[Shadow Catcher]

There are a series of articles on RV Daily Report discussing the quality or lack of quality control in the RV industry. There are three articles so far and more to come. http://rvdailyreport.com/opinion/rv-death-spiral-suppliers-in-a-tough-spot/

[Velos]

Here are two more in the series:

 

http://rvdailyreport.com/opinion/opinion-the-rv-industry-death-spiral-part-1/

 

"Every other day for the next two weeks, I’ll publish another opinion column targeting a specific segment of the industry and explain how that segment is contributing to the eventual demise of the entire industry. I’ll look at:

• RV manufacturers
• RV dealers
• RV suppliers
• RV wholesalers
• RV parks and campgrounds
• RV associations
• RV owners
• RV media"

 

http://rvdailyreport.com/opinion/rv-death-spiral-manufacturers-in-race-to-the-bottom/

[Jack Mayer]

The issues that Greg points out are well known in the industry. Which is why I say that the typical RV is "junk". Pretty junk - because flash is what sells. But still junk.

 

Ever wonder why the custom manufacturer's RVs cost considerably more? The answer is that, while there is plenty of "flash" (if you want it - remember, it is custom built), there is also plenty of infrastructure for longer life.

 

Spacecraft, Forks, New Horizons (and a few other) try to build a quality units....and that costs money.

[rockintom]

The issues that Greg points out are well known in the industry. Which is why I say that the typical RV is "junk". Pretty junk - because flash is what sells. But still junk.

 

Ever wonder why the custom manufacturer's RVs cost considerably more? The answer is that, while there is plenty of "flash" (if you want it - remember, it is custom built), there is also plenty of infrastructure for longer life.

 

Spacecraft, Forks, New Horizons (and a few other) try to build a quality units....and that costs money.

You are right on Jack. As a person who spent my life in the automotive industry I can tell you, we'd be out of business if we produced 1/4 of the junk the RV industry does generally speaking. The vendor stuff is at least 1/2 or more of the problem. I'm amazed folks are as tolerate as they are. Thank goodness our manufacturer was good about taking care of the deficiencies, but usually you had to return to the factory (at your expense) to have them repaired.

 

I've notice in attending "RV Sales Shows" recently, that younger folks coming into the RV market are looking at the glamour and glitz!!! I guess it's all about what will our friends and neighbors think!!! End of rant. rockin'

[GlennWest]

Our Teton is 2003. We have had to replace some items. I find little in rv stores for our unit. Hardware stores and the likes mostly where we end up at. But yes, the a/c, toilet, vents, etc are standard rv junk. Although the toilet gives good service. We also have had no problem with vents. I must admit what I see in camping stores are so cheap junky looking. This is the now standard.

[rdickinson]

My rig is an 40'- '01 Travel Supreme. 10 yrs ago when purchased, Hitchhiker, Nuwa, Newmar plus Travel Supreme and Teton were some of the preferred units.

 

Overall, I'm happy with the trailer. Issues are dealt with as they come up. I look at problems others have to try to make a pre-emptive strike on a symptom before it becomes a more serious problem.

 

The only thing I've not been able to figure out is how to lube the slideout mechanism due to the enclosed underbelly. Without removing a whole lot of Tech screws and probably buckling the metal in the process.

 

The question, whether TS is in the class of junk or not?

 

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Edit or add on.

 

I started my response before Glen posted his but my questions and comments are similar.

 

In my case the following plus more has been done.

 

• Eternabond tape on the roof
• 17.5's
• Interior led's
• Residential fridge
• Magnum 2812
• EZ Connect plug
• Charging system from truck alternator for house batteries
• Carpet

 

The trailer is low tech, analog so to speak compared to the new digital.

 

I see and hear first hand of issues others have with new trucks and higher end trailers. More complex as well as more things to have problems with and a longer time to get to understand how systems work. Let alone more parts to replace when they fail as most are made offshore At this point in time I'd still prefer a decent, well maintained used unit and do upgrades as money and time came available.

 

For me, this was an easier path than laying out 150 to 200k US

[GlennWest]

The original owners of our Teton told us, when they first got unit, fridge would wobble. Tech came out and added some shims. I had a Dometic heat pump replaced. I personally replaced washing machine, tvs, DVD playes, put an auger motor in fridge so we could get ice from door. They just don't make like this today unless ones goes custom build. We wanted a new 5ther. We didn't like what we found new.

[Mark and Dale Bruss]

We have a 2006 Travel Supreme we bought new and we intend to use it for many years more as our Texas residence. In 2006 Travel Supreme was one of the heavy weights, including Teton and Newmar. heavy weights because they were heavy from being built on strong frames which means they last longer. Today, the custom builders are delivering the heavy weights.

[pugsly]

The reality is that fulltime / heavy users are not the target demo for the RV manufacturers. What percentage of RVs sold actually gets much use other than rolling out a time or two a year for a long weekend or week? The marginal quality with attractive pricepoint makes sense for the vast majority of the market.

[GlennWest]

I'm actually finding more full timers now. Not saying your statement incorrect but more are getting into this.

[pugsly]

I'm actually finding more full timers now. Not saying your statement incorrect but more are getting into this.

 

I meet fulltimers (or long-timers) often as well, but as a percentage of the overall folks in campgrounds it is still pretty low. If the average RV gets used 5 weeks a year, I wonder how much that number would change if you only looked at the casual RV users.

 

I RV in a 2006 Bigfoot camper that cost $31,920 when purchased in 2006. Even though it spent 18 months bouncing around South America it has held up great. But how many people are going to pay $30k+ for a truck camper - with no slides, no fireplace, no washing machine, etc - just boring stuff like double pane windows, heated basement, etc?

[rdickinson]

New heavy or old heavy....I know Glen is just a young guy but my thinking is along his lines.

 

Glen, re the fridge. I tied my obscenely expensive 36" retro 50's fridge back to the outside wood stud wall with pipe strapping. 1 pce each side at the top. Two tech screws into the metal of the fridge and two wood screws into the studs. Access thru the top fridge vent in the side of the trailer.

Make em tite, easier to stop the fridge from moving than stop it after it starts.

 

Now back to my generator enclosure.

[rdickinson]

But the heavyweights still have issues. Maybe or maybe not because of their complexity or parts may not be of the quality we would hope for.

 

From time to time I look at RV Online listings, generally not many Tetons or Travel Supremes.

[GlennWest]

Only thing we ever did to fridge is arguer motor. It is factory installed though. Thank you for the young man comment. I'm the old man at work.

[rdickinson]

Glen, what's an arguer motor?? My fridge doesn't have one. My ex wife had one and it went no-stop.

 

Funny you should mention the icemaker, I replace mine the other week...plug and play. Even I could do it.

 

I couldn't resist that one.

[GlennWest]

Glen, what's an arguer motor?? My fridge doesn't have one. My ex wife had one and it went no-stop.

 

Funny you should mention the icemaker, I replace mine the other week...plug and play. Even I could do it.

 

I couldn't resist that one.

Mine is a residential with water, ice, crushed ice in door. It uses an auger to disperse ice.

[rdickinson]

Yes, I know, I was just messing with you. No red squiggly under arguer.

[Pappy Yokum]

You are right on Jack. As a person who spent my life in the automotive industry I can tell you, we'd be out of business if we produced 1/4 of the junk the RV industry does generally speaking. The vendor stuff is at least 1/2 or more of the problem. I'm amazed folks are as tolerate as they are. Thank goodness our manufacturer was good about taking care of the deficiencies, but usually you had to return to the factory (at your expense) to have them repaired.

 

I've notice in attending "RV Sales Shows" recently, that younger folks coming into the RV market are looking at the glamour and glitz!!! I guess it's all about what will our friends and neighbors think!!! End of rant. rockin'

 

 

Hmmmmmm - Pot calling the kettle black!

If you consider the number of "units" produced, the "auto industry" has -and does- produce at least a 1/4 of the "junk" the RV industry does.

Let's start with the Toyota throttle problems resulting in death and injury....etc.

 

BTW - nothing "new" for the auto industry. My BIL 'spent his life" at (retired from) GM, Van Nuys, CA.

Know all about Friday night and Monday morning cars - and the "ability" to turn a pigs ear into a beautiful example on the showroom floor - ready to empty a buyer's wallet - - to fill the dealer's silk purse.

(NOT the def of QC)

 

Unfortunately, it is what it is.......still haven't taken my truck in for it's airbag recall, LOL.

 

.

[GlennWest]

There are a lot of things that need changing in this industry. Our campers should not need fixing when we buy them. The a/c system needs to be changed (this has been discussed here previously), cheap open cell foam should be abandoned for high dense foam. Triple seals should become standard. Dual pane windows should be standard and designed for travel use. Personally believe refrigerators should become either residential or 12 volt compressor low power needed units and abandon the propane/electric units. Too much problems with them. Eliminate the rv ovens or make one that cooks well. I do believe customers are too content with the state of campers.

[bruce t]

The issue comes down to us. Us the user. We demand/expect 'quality' at a certain price point. Manufacturers know what the price points are. So they build to that price point. Then we get all huffy when we don't get the quality we want. The simple fact is that it's a supply and demand market. Manufacturers know what sells.

 

But look at it from another point. If you buy a $20,000.00 car it comes with all sorts of warranties and government legislation. If it has even the smallest bubble in the paint we all scream and demand it be fixed. Yet we are prepared to pay far far more for an RV and do little to 'force' the industry to up it's game.

 

So two points. Expect to pay more for quality. But do something about 'forcing' the industry to take more responsibility.

 

regards

[Kirk W]

The issue comes down to us. Us the user.

Absolutely a fact! The history of the RV industry is littered with the skeletons of companies who insisted upon putting quality and reliability first and the price required to sell the products second. The buying public just isn't willing to pay what it takes for a company such as that to stay in business. The only part of the industry that does so is the top of the class A line where you have to pay $1/2 million or more. The rest of the market seems to belong to those who want to pay for a Ford Fiesta and expect to get a Lincoln.

 

Quality control programs that work are expensive to maintain and they produce no revenue. It is much less costly to just build them as quickly as possible and then expect the dealers to fix any problems. If you want the quality of a Newell, you probably will not find it when you buy a Georgetown!

[GlennWest]

There's nothing on the market I want really. We are content with what we have but I want to make changes that needs to be built into it. exampe; doing away with top air. If a split system was made for us I could install it but then got to patch holes in roof when top are removed. Just think we should demand more and accept the cost. We will pay 80k or more for a truck, but aren't will to put more in our 5ther even if it is or home.

[pugsly]

Absolutely a fact! The history of the RV industry is littered with the skeletons of companies who insisted upon putting quality and reliability first and the price required to sell the products second. The buying public just isn't willing to pay what it takes for a company such as that to stay in business. The only part of the industry that does so is the top of the class A line where you have to pay $1/2 million or more. The rest of the market seems to belong to those who want to pay for a Ford Fiesta and expect to get a Lincoln.

 

Quality control programs that work are expensive to maintain and they produce no revenue. It is much less costly to just build them as quickly as possible and then expect the dealers to fix any problems. If you want the quality of a Newell, you probably will not find it when you buy a Georgetown!

 

The Overland Vehicle space is another exception to the rule. $250k pretty much just gets you started with something like this - and if you want one I think they are taking orders 12 months out right now, so somebody is valuing the quality of these build. It is not the mass market, but these niche markets are able to find more than enough business to survive.

 

[GlennWest]

That would be fun but we would not want to full time in it.

[SpaceNorman]

Contrary to the tone of this "RV death spiral" thread - I for one do not think that the sky is falling or the end is near. The issue of vendors throughout the supply chain being pressured to deliver products at a specific price point - and then finding a way to do it is certainly not unique to the RV industry. That's a fact of life in virtually e​very industry these days.​ I don't consider pointing to RV manufacturers that have radically changed their approach to stay in business - or failed to find a strategy that kept their wares selling and that have gone out of business as a result - as evidence support the "RV death spiral" theory. I view it as an acknowledgement of just how tough a market the RV industry plays in. Face it, RVs are BIG ticket luxury items ... they're the first to feel the heat when the economy slows and one of the last to recover when the economic picture starts to brighten.

 

Personally, I can't help but feel that we're all starting to sound a bit like our fathers .... each rattling off our own version of the "things ain't like they used to be!" rants that we used to hear from them. Yes, the RV industry is changing ... and yes, some of those changes aren't being met with open arms by many of us. But, that's out of our control. Heck, if you really think about it - a pretty good argument can be made that we've done it to ourselves by not supporting the "high quality" products who's demise we're lamenting in this thread.

 

The industry today doesn't look like the industry of yesterday ... and won't look like the industry of tomorrow. We'll simply have to learn to adapt with it ... or walk away from it.