RV Death Spiral

[Velos]

Several years ago when talking to a RV salesman at a RV show he made the comment that the RV's are pushed out so fast that there was no time for factory quality control so the consumer is the quality control and "x" amount of dollars were put into the price of each unit for warranty work.

[rpsinc]

Forum topics like this helped me alot to make different choices based on knowledge that I got from experience from those that went before me. So, I am remodeling a Newmar Kountry Air. So far I can tell that it was built more solidly than some others I have seen. It is also much less glitz, but that is what I chose, less glitz and more substance.

Thank you to all that share here, we who can use and do use that knowledge and experience, appreciate it.

[2gypsies]

Compare the above YouTube by Jayco and this one by Newmar - a little calmer workplace.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYJpav7Sx5M

[Jack Mayer]

 

 

Jack, I can see the countertops and cabinet walls. What "we" are talking about here is the piece worker compensation in Elkhart and the resulting "tight is good, stripped is better" mentality. There is no need to spend thousands on materials or components, there is a need to slow down just a hair, and to put it together with A LITTLE THOUGHT AND CARE. Is that tens of thousands? No. I know that, and I know you do too.

That is certainly a factor as well.And a major one. But the quality of materials is important. Using thin flooring, (essentially) cardboard interior walls, virtually no insulation, vinyl "wood" etc. is what I mean by cheap materials. Put those together any way you want....you still have junk. As I said, both are factors, but many of the manufacturers use compromised components. IMO.

[Bob 4.5]

Hello All,

 

Just registered and this is my first time post but have been reading for quite awhile. I must say that as a person planning to go full timing in about 4 years these articles and the general discussion have me reconsidering. Somehow I don't see putting down a large sum of money ($200K) for a vehicle that is going to fail me before my health does.

 

Are things really as bad as they are being made out to be?

[Big Greg]

Bob 4.5; I don't believe they are as bad as the forum has you imagining. Most buyers appear to be very price conscious and if they are young and working families they will not use the RV like a full timer, nor will they research RVs. We were green weenies (very naive) when we purchased our first and last RV. Maybe we did good research, maybe we got lucky. I learned a lot about suspension systems by upgrading our home, something I gave very little thought to until a year later.

Bottom line, if you are like us you'll REALLY enjoy the full time lifestyle and all the good friends you will make and experiences. Doing your research will allow you to find a good RV, MUCH more so than a weekender who has no understanding of RV quality. We will not give up this lifestyle until we physically have to. Buy the best quality you can and upgrade to fit your needs once you know how you'll be using it. Don't assume a brand new RV is going to be better than an older unit or problem free. Greg

 

PS.....welcome to the forum! Plan to attend an Escapee Bootcamp too, you'll be glad you did, learning about RVs and the lifestyle AND making new friends.

[I'mdonewiththis forum]

Bob 4.5 welcome!! No, I personally don't believe things are as bad as they are portrayed. Is there room for improvement? You bet there is. If you take your time and research what is in your price range you will find it is not all gloom and doom. There are lots of members on here that are full time and have been for many years without their trailer falling apart around them.

[GlennWest]

We really like our Teton. In all honestly, folks on here remember us hunting for a larger 5ther. The only unit new at that time, was a DRV (The Lux haven't come on market then) that we really considered a full time quality unit. We had a smaller DRV. We found this Teton and never looked back. It's not to say all the current 5thers are junk but there is a lot of improvements that need to be done. I really don't like the a/c system in current units. It is wide spread though. There are split systems with minor changes that would be better for us. Some have installed them on TTs and first comment is how quiet they are and can cool so much better. They are also lower operating cost. That's Jack for pointing this out. Really got me wanting to change. lol. Do believe rvs are here to stay. Thor wouldn't we investing in do many manufactures if it thought they were going out. I do believe full time quality units will go strictly to custom build. I could be wrong. As it stands now unless custom you basically have the same low quality stoves, a/cs, heaters, etc that everyone else has. Just a note, new RV Resort in Baytown, TX, has 30, 50, 100 amp service at all sites. Don't believe they see a death spiral.

[2gypsies]

We full-timed 16 years in both a 5th wheel and motorhome and were surrounded by full-timers as we traveled. I can assure you that RVing is not going downhill in any respect. We had absolutely no issues. Yes, there's room for improvement but there are thousands and thousands of very satisfied RVers out there. Don't give up your dream! The ones you read about on these forums that have problems are only a small portion of RVers. The ones that don't have problems never post.

 

If you have $200,000 to spend on a RV I'd recommend that you look at high quality USED ones for the best financial deal and for a stable RV. When you find yours have it fully inspected by someone qualified. It also helps if the owner has kept all repair/maintenance records for you. When we sold ours that was a high point to our buyer. New RVs will have the obvious kinks worked out during the first year or two of use. That's why buying one a couple years old is beneficial. It's definitely no guarantee that something else will go wrong in future years. Many people buy expensive large RVs and find out they aren't using them for various reasons or they finance them and realize they can't really afford them. That's why newer used ones are for sale.

[oscarvan]

That is certainly a factor as well.And a major one. But the quality of materials is important. Using thin flooring, (essentially) cardboard interior walls, virtually no insulation, vinyl "wood" etc. is what I mean by cheap materials. Put those together any way you want....you still have junk. As I said, both are factors, but many of the manufacturers use compromised components. IMO.

 

Agreed. However, we are not full timers. If we were we would be sitting at the table with the New Horizon folks and putting something together that would have a quality look and feel and stand up to the intensive use. However, we spend "only" 5-6 weeks a year in our unit, so spending the kind of money a NH commands is not in the cards. So at the price point we're at I am OK with thin floors and cardboard walls. We are careful and after 4 years of relatively light use the unit still looks as good as new. Counter tops, sinks and shower are better materials and also holding up. In concept I am happy with the VALUE.

 

What I am NOT happy with is the unconscionable way in which it was slapped together, much of which doesn't show until well after the ink on the sales contract is dry. There is no need for this. Like I said, slow down a little and do it right. Charge me a FEW grand more.

[Kirk W]

 

What I am NOT happy with is the unconscionable way in which it was slapped together, much of which doesn't show until well after the ink on the sales contract is dry. There is no need for this. Like I said, slow down a little and do it right. Charge me a FEW grand more.

We, the RV buying public are mostly at fault for the quality control problems of the RV industry. It has been proven over and over that the companies that insist upon doing things right and in quality control in the factory can not survive when the market conditions become difficult. The vast majority of the lower to mid priced RV sales are based more upon price than any other factor and the most reliable quality RV builders are always the first to fail, excluding the $1 million + market. The majority of the RV buyers either don't care enough to pay extra for real quality or then don't know how to tell the difference.

 

There is a valid reason for the lower price/quality RV market but it really would not add that much to institute quality control at the factory, if the public was willing to pay for it.

[GlennWest]

I believe it is lack of knowledge. If I hadn't gotten on forums to start with I would have had no idea what to look for.

[oscarvan]

I believe it is lack of knowledge. If I hadn't gotten on forums to start with I would have had no idea what to look for.

 

 

Valid point. I was a Realtor™ in a previous life. I cannot even begin to tell the stories of how I saw people screwed over. Eventually the state instituted some standards and enforced compliance.....

 

'Nuff said.

[Bob 4.5]

Thanks for the responses ... we will keep reading, watching, and learning ... our time is approaching.

[freestoneangler]

Look at this video and it's easy to see how a mistake can go unnoticed. I don't know how they can maintain any quality control at this pace. I've seen videos in the past where the pace was even faster. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXMJrRQ3SVk

That's what mass production most often does to quality. Interesting video, thanks for sharing.

[ncrowley]

We purchased a 2004 Newmar and if we ever sell it, I have no idea what we would replace it with. I have heard so many horror stories about very expensive coaches being in the shop over half of their first year. Yes, I have had repairs on my coach but nothing unexpected in one of its age. I have walked through new coaches made by other manufacturers and it was amazing how cheaply there are made and how easy it was for me to see the cheap components. I always recommend going for quality even if you need t go back a number of years in order to afford it.

[Legendsk]

We, the RV buying public are mostly at fault for the quality control problems of the RV industry. It has been proven over and over that the companies that insist upon doing things right and in quality control in the factory can not survive when the market conditions become difficult. The vast majority of the lower to mid priced RV sales are based more upon price than any other factor and the most reliable quality RV builders are always the first to fail, excluding the $1 million + market. The majority of the RV buyers either don't care enough to pay extra for real quality or then don't know how to tell the difference.

 

There is a valid reason for the lower price/quality RV market but it really would not add that much to institute quality control at the factory, if the public was willing to pay for it.

 

As a certified Quality Control Engineer, I have to take exception to some of the statements here. Properly implemented quality control does not add cost, it will reduce cost. Always! Every time! If it didn't, it was done wrong.

 

Management of the business has to decide whether to use expensive, durable, reliable components and materials - or cheap, unreliable, even shoddy stuff, in an effort to make more profit or reach what they believe is an attractive selling price. If they are honest and open about what they are doing, it's probably not unethical, but it sure leaves the door open for salesmen, dealers, etc., to deceive the customer about what they are selling and that certainly is unethical.

 

True quality control makes sure that the customer is going to get what they expect. If it's a Montblanc pen, they must never, ever get a bad one out of the box. If it's a Bic (even made by the same company) and they come in plastic bags of 100 for $1.00, then finding 2 or 3 duds is perfectly acceptable.

[Kirk W]

As a certified Quality Control Engineer, I have to take exception to some of the statements here. Properly implemented quality control does not add cost, it will reduce cost. Always! Every time! If it didn't, it was done wrong.

 

You need to talk to the RV industry and sell them on that view. The history of RV manufacturing is littered with the ghosts of manufacturers who insisted upon putting quality above all else, and failed because the public buys based upon price first. When you build cheap, quality has to suffer.

 

 

True quality control makes sure that the customer is going to get what they expect.

Tell that to the former Fleetwood RV who failed partly because too many customers bought a Bounder based upon the price and then expected to get an American Eagle. I'll continue to say, most of the quality problems in the RV market is the fault of the buyers.

[docj]

 

 

Tell that to the former Fleetwood RV who failed partly because too many customers bought a Bounder based upon the price and then expected to get an American Eagle. I'll continue to say, most of the quality problems in the RV market is the fault of the buyers.

 

I agree that's what happened, but it shouldn't have. The Bounder should have been priced lower than the Eagle because it used less expensive materials and had less "glitz" but there was no reason that it should have been built to a different quality standard.

 

Remember back to when Japanese cars first started to make their mark in the US. It wasn't as if there weren't less expensive cars already available here at the time. What the Japanese offered were low priced cars that were well built unlike my neighbor's Fiat from which pieces were always falling off on the driveway!

[richfaa]

We sold Rv's at large RV shows for a few years.Most folks do not use Rv;s the way we long timers and full timers use them.90% of Rv buyers know little about RV's and the two most frequently asked questions are can my .... pull it and what are the monthly payments.

 

If the 5h wheel was built the way I need it t o be built it would cost about 250K and weigh about 30K. They are built to sell and at a price point folks can afford.

 

We have toured every factory in the Elkhart, Goshen area more than once IMO the issue is not so much with the quality of vendor provided items but with the quality of assembly.

 

Note that just about every manufacturer that built a quality RV is now out of business or the quality has decreased.

 

If you use a RV 60 or so days a year you are less apt to have a problem than if you use it 365 days a year any brand.

[motojavaphil]

We were recently RV shopping on a thin dime. We looked at new within our price point. Lots of glitz, glamour and I have to say the floor plans have come a long way over the years. We would walk into a prospective 5er, be wowed as we entered and then the looking. Doors not closing, drawers barely being retained in their slides, trim and molding just falling off or just not doing the job they were intended to do. Sales offered they would fix things prior to delivery and you do have warranty. Our intent was to use the rig like a snowbird so the weekend concept was out for us. The rigs we looked at would not have been adequate for that although having said that I have seen far less used for full-time. Our search new ended when we were in a lot and some external molding fell of as we were standing there...brand new! Following our price point we looked at used rigs. I will say young families were looking and purchasing the new rigs and dealerships were well populated with consumers. We ended up with a 7 year old Cameo and have had some teething issues but nothing like what I was looking at in the new rigs we were considering.

I have two tool boxes, one being a relatively new Craftsman and the other being a well used Snap On from the early 1960's. The Snap On, despite hard use over the years, has drawers that slide quietly and solidly. The Craftsman works well but it does not take much to see the difference in quality. There it is..

[Shadow Catcher]

The rest of the series is now complete Seeing what others have posted this http://rvdailyreport.com/opinion/rv-industry-death-spiral-part-7-rv-owners-share-the-blame/

Is perhaps one of the more interesting. I am working on correcting a problem with our teardrop that probably existed from day one, No right turn signal when the lights are on. We religiously do a light check before moving, but never with the head lights on.

[rdickinson]

http://www.albiondrivertraining.com/training-videos/

 

Video 3