Lights Flickering

[Cathy and Paula]

I have just moved to a new location and my inside lights have started flickering. They have not done this before at any other spot. Do I have a bad electrical box? I have brand new batteries and I have checked the connections and they are tight. My surge protector is not flashing anything weird. Any suggestions on what could be causing this?

[Yarome]

To really pinpoint what's going on more information is needed.

 

What type of light fixtures do you have (fluorescent, incandescent, LED)?

Are all fixtures flickering in sync with each other or just one?

Are they actually flickering.. near instant flashes in intensity.. or are they strobing.. slow increase in intensity then a sudden drop off then building in intensity again?

Do your vent fans also exhibit variations in speed?

Do you have the equipment to test your batteries current voltage?

Are you using a stock converter to charge your batteries or a stand alone after market charger?

 

1. Not that it couldn't trace back to your shore connection, but your lighting issue shouldn't be directly affected. They are part of your 12v system which should be isolated to your battery bank and/or converter.

 

If all lights are affected similarly then the first suspect would be low battery charge (new or not). That being said though.. more information is required.

[Cathy and Paula]

I have led lights and no they don't flicker the same or all the time. My vent fans are working fine. I have a 2000 watt inverter/charger. What type of equipment do I need to check my batteries?

[Yarome]

If you don't already have a permanent batter meter installed then just any ol voltmeter will work. Preferably digital and can be had from something around $10-$20 at Walmart or Harbor freight. I doesn't need to be fancy, but something you should have on board any way.

 

That being said.. I don't think it's low batteries. More likely you've got a loose neutral from your batteries to your power distribution panel or a 12v fuse not properly seated... or a contaminated/fouled connection.

 

Try pulling your 12v lighting fuses one by one. Inspect them for any buildup on the blades then reinsert. From there I would double check the 12v connections coming off your batteries and the connections into your power distribution panel.

 

Depending on where you are and what the temps are like, you may also be having an intermittent condensation issue either in your panel or fixture wiring. Most likely in the layers between your ceiling and roof.

 

Are your LED's LED fixtures or add in strip type that have been wired into your incandescent fixtures?

 

Hopefully inspecting and reseating your 12v fuses and checking the battery to panel wire connections should resolve your problem. If not.. verify your battery charge is not low. From there... it could be a condensation issue or a loose connection in your fixture wiring. That'll be no fun to track down so let's hope it's just in your battery to panel or fuse connections.

[Kirk W]

I have just moved to a new location and my inside lights have started flickering. They have not done this before at any other spot. Do I have a bad electrical box? I have brand new batteries and I have checked the connections and they are tight.

..................................

I have led lights and no they don't flicker the same or all the time.

Since your lights operate from 12V-dc power the shore power should have no impact on this. Have you monitored the voltage to see if it is changing? If not that is what I'd look at first. If it happens to more than one light, that would seem to indicate that the problem isn't in the light fixtures. Does it happen to all of the lights, or might it be only on those connected via the same switch? I'd not just check battery voltage but also at the light switch and at the fixtures.

 

If the voltage is fluctuating, next isolate the source by shutting off the converter to use battery power only and if the flickering stops & voltage fluctuation stops, it must be from your converter. Or you can leave the converter on and lift the negative cable from your batteries to isolate the converter as the cause.

[Riverc]

When mine did this it was a bad convertor.Not saying that's your problem but wouldn't hurt to check voltage at the convertor.

[D&J]

First thing to check is the connections at your 12v fuse box, also make sure all the fuses are seated all the way.

 

Denny

[Ray,IN]

If you don't already have a permanent batter meter installed then just any ol voltmeter will work. Preferably digital and can be had from something around $10-$20 at Walmart or Harbor freight. I doesn't need to be fancy, but something you should have on board any way.

 

That being said.. I don't think it's low batteries. More likely you've got a loose neutral from your batteries to your power distribution panel or a 12v fuse not properly seated... or a contaminated/fouled connection.

 

I agree. Ground problems account for ~90% of all 12V issues.

[oscarvan]

The converter is the device that takes shore power (120V) and makes 12V. Among other 12V things it feeds all your lights and charges your batteries at the same time.

 

Are the lights going all the way off? as in DARK? Or just fluctuating up and down a little? Are they ALL doing it? Inside and outside?

 

After answering that.....

 

Turn off converter....... If you don't know how, or it doesn't have a separate breaker.......unplug shore power...... still doing it?

 

If it stopped it means the converter output is varying either because it is bad, or because shore power voltage is fluctuating.

 

So, plug shore power back in and have a 120V light plugged into an outlet. Does it fluctuate? If yes it's the pedestal or the connection between pedestal and unit. If not it's the converter.

 

If the fluctuating did NOT stop when you turned off the converter/unplugged shore power it is on the 12V side of the house.

 

And yes, 90% of 12V issues, especially it it's all over is negative side related.

 

If this is all Greek to you...... find someone that knows.

[Barbaraok]

I noticed that everyone assumed that all of the lights are on the 12v system in the RV. About 1/2 of ours are on the 120v system, other have 12v system, and to add to that, some of the 120v run through the subpanel for the inverter/converter, some don't.

 

Sounds to me like the OP could use someone to explain how the 2 system work, how they differ, and what to check. Even though it is expensive, if the OP can't find a knowledgeable person nearby, I'd opt for an hour's time for a good mobile RV Tech to come out and explain to what check, how to check, etc.

 

Barb

[docj]

Both our 120V LEDs and our 12V LEDs were exhibiting some flicker when we discovered that we had a "slightly" floating neutral. No doubt the additional resistance of the one or more loose connections were somewhat erratic in nature which caused the LEDs to "see" varying voltage.

[Yarome]

I noticed that everyone assumed that all of the lights are on the 12v system in the RV. About 1/2 of ours are on the 120v system, other have 12v system, and to add to that, some of the 120v run through the subpanel for the inverter/converter, some don't.

 

We assume so because we know so. They have a 2016 Lifestyle. It's all 12v lighting so no need to confuse them. 120v/12v dual lighting systems are more common in older rigs, but quite uncommon in the past decade or so as energy efficiency/conservation has come more to the forefront.

 

Inverters and converters/chargers are completely different animals and have no direct relation to one another. One is strictly a 120v system and the other is strictly a 12v system component. An inverter "may" be run through a subpanel (recommended for full house application), but a converter feeding your 12v system will not.

 

For Cathy & Paula their issue is strictly a 12v issue.

[docj]

 

120v/12v dual lighting systems are more common in older rigs, but quite uncommon in the past decade or so as energy efficiency/conservation has come more to the forefront.

 

 

 

I'm not sure how limiting the lighting to 12V relates to energy conservation. The real issue is lumens per watt. I'm not aware of why one approach is inherently more energy efficient than the other.

 

My assumption has been that most RV manufacturers are too cheap to wire their RVs with the wiring necessary for a dual voltage system. IMO we get far better lighting from our 120V lights which have now been converted to residential LEDs than we have seen in "modern" RVs lit only by 12V lamps.

[Yarome]

 

I'm not sure how limiting the lighting to 12V relates to energy conservation. The real issue is lumens per watt. I'm not aware of why one approach is inherently more energy efficient than the other.

 

Less loss to power conversion.. for starters. Typically, you're looking at a 10%-15% loss right out of the gate.

[Kirk W]

My assumption has been that most RV manufacturers are too cheap to wire their RVs with the wiring necessary for a dual voltage system. IMO we get far better lighting from our 120V lights which have now been converted to residential LEDs than we have seen in "modern" RVs lit only by 12V lamps.

Me too, but the claim has always been that it enables owners to use all lights if they don't have shore power. At least that was what they said back when most stopped putting in two sets of lighting. While conversion loss is real, if your lights are all 12V you have to convert when on shore power, while if they are 120V you need to convert when on the battery so I really don't seem much gain.

[oscarvan]

Inverters and converters/chargers are completely different animals and have no direct relation to one another. One is strictly a 120v system and the other is strictly a 12v system component. An inverter "may" be run through a subpanel (recommended for full house application), but a converter feeding your 12v system will not.

 

For Cathy & Paula their issue is strictly a 12v issue.

 

 

Inverters and converters both have 120V AND 12V cabling attached and straddle the 120V and 12V world albeit indeed for different purposes. So that statement is not quite accurate and explains very little. To make it even more interesting, some inverters (like the one on my MH) are even "inverter/chargers."

 

And while it is entirely possible that the issue is strictly a 12V issue, it could also be the result of fluctuating AC voltage going into the converter.

 

My (start of a) process of elimination above would rule some things out.

 

Most importantly the question: Do they extinguish completely, or just go up and down in intensity/brightness has not been answered.

[Yarome]

while if they are 120V you need to convert when on the battery so I really don't seem much gain.

 

A conversion of 120vac to a "bulk" ouput of say.. 45amps to your battery bank has a lower percentage of energy loss ("overhead") than converting 120vac to the relatively low power demands (say .25amps) of a light fixture. "Overhead" demands remain marginally constant.

 

In that case.. it is much more efficient to "bulk" feed your batteries and then feed 12vdc "native" current to fixtures on demand rather than feeding them piecemeal directly from a 120vac converter. In the case where conversion/current limiting it taking place within an individual fixtures ballast.. that loss is compounded by each fixture in use.

 

Not all rigs are wired the same and not all equipment operates in the same way. The above is just a "for instance".

[docj]

Me too, but the claim has always been that it enables owners to use all lights if they don't have shore power. .

 

Almost the entire 120V circuitry in our MH goes through our 2.8kW Magnum PSW inverter. So we, too, can power all our lights when not connected to shore power. Over most of its normal usage range the Magnum is ~90% efficent in converting battery power to 120V.

 

IMO RV manufacturers appear to be very adept at explaining why they make changes to their products to "conform to the wishes" of their customers, when, in fact, they make most of those changes to save money by cheapening the product. To build a dual-voltage coach such as ours a large inverter was a necessity; a 2kW unit was standard. With today's RVs being pretty much 12V-only many high end manufacturers of MH's provide only small inverters as standard equipment. By claiming the change was made for greater efficiency the manufacturer is able to cut cost by providing the smaller inverter. You can decide what really motivated making the change.

[Yarome]

Inverters and converters both have 120V AND 12V cabling attached

 

it could also be the result of fluctuating AC voltage going into the converter.

 

Inverter or converter/charger.. function and output have no impact on one another. They are completely isolated "sides". Even though "Inverter/chargers" may have 120v and 12v wiring running into them, they are just that.. an inverter AND a charger housed within the same case, but separate components.

 

Not likely. In a 2016 rig I highly doubt they have one of the old "dumb" "load priority" converters where that would be typical. Internal current regulation these days is sufficient in nearly all standard/stock converters to the point that low output might be a more common symptom, but rapidly fluctuating current would not. Of course... their batteries would also have to be incredibly low to manifest a converter issue anyway since most 12v systems these days are "charge priority" (battery dependent).

 

As others have stated as well.. the symptoms they are explaining pretty much screams a compromised neutral.

 

That being said... it sure doesn't hurt to unplug from shore power and see if the flickering persists.. definitively ruling out the possibility of one crazy converter.

[docj]

 

Inverter or converter/charger.. function and output have no impact on one another. They are completely isolated "sides". Even though "Inverter/chargers" may have 120v and 12v wiring running into them, they are just that.. an inverter AND a charger housed within the same case, but separate components.

 

Not likely. In a 2016 rig I highly doubt they have one of the old "dumb" "load priority" converters where that would be typical. Internal current regulation these days is sufficient in nearly all standard/stock converters to the point that low output might be a more common symptom, but rapidly fluctuating current would not. Of course... their batteries would also have to be incredibly low to manifest a converter issue anyway since most 12v systems these days are "charge priority" (battery dependent).

 

As others have stated as well.. the symptoms they are explaining pretty much screams a compromised neutral.

 

That being said... it sure doesn't hurt to unplug from shore power and see if the flickering persists.. definitively ruling out the possibility of one crazy converter.

 

With all due respect when we had the floating neutral problem a month ago, some of our 12V LEDs and all our 120V ones were exhibiting noticeable flickering, from time to time. Until we identified the issue we actually thought that the 120V flicker was due to a bad dimmer switch but once the problem was resolved by the power company both the 120V and 12V flicker was gone. Our 12V is derived from the Magnum inverter and I don't see a spec for AC ripple or stability on its charger output. Presumably some of the AC "flicker" was getting through to the 12V lighting circuits and some of the LED drivers were permitting it to affect the lighting output.

[oscarvan]

Regarding the design decisions of manufacturers.....

 

Increasingly inverters are being installed as "the buying public" has to plug in their 120V chargers for laptops etc. Also TV's HAVE to work and video consoles and such. Always. As an interesting side note, by installing a whole house inverter they were also able to install residential fridges and power them when moving. These units are larger, isn't that AWESOME. And it's "residential" (another step removed from camping). A cute little side benefit is that they are a LOT cheaper than a good sized 12V and/or 120V and/or propane unit.

[Yarome]

Presumably some of the AC "flicker" was getting through to the 12V lighting circuits and some of the LED drivers were permitting it to affect the lighting output.

 

I should have been clearer. I was referring to symptoms of a failing converter.. not a poor shore power supply. With a clean power supply newer "smarts" tend to drop voltage rather than "flicker" when about to give up the ghost. Generally speaking...