Nuke-E Posted January 19, 2016 Report Share Posted January 19, 2016 I've finally gotten around to doing a little bit of writing on the lithium battery project. So far, most of it is introductory, but I've generated a voltage vs. SOC curve, put the battery under load, and looked at a few other things. I should be rolling out more info on a pretty regular basis now, as the project gets a little more attention. Here's the first post: http://rvnerds.com/2016/01/18/new-project-installation-of-a-new-lithium-ion-house-battery-bank/ If you want to keep tabs on the project, here's the link that will get you a list of all of the posts about it: http://rvnerds.com/category/projects-and-how-tos/lithium-house-battery/ Comments, questions, and suggestions are appreciated--and I'll try to post back here when there's new information posted. 45' 2004 Showhauler -- VNL300, ISX, FreedomLine -- RVnerds.com -- where I've started to write about what I'm up to Headlight and Fog Light Upgrades http://deepspacelighting.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Gell Posted January 19, 2016 Report Share Posted January 19, 2016 Thanks for sharing this project with us, David. I will be following with interest. 2001 Volvo 770, Detroit 60 Series, Gen 2 Autoshift Passenger assist elevator to enter cab - for when we need it, or sell it? '05 Travel Supreme Select 40 RLQSO 5th wheel 2016 smart car We started full timing on December 1st 2014 Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness - Mark Twain Not all that wander are lost - J. R. R. Tolkien Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronbo Posted January 19, 2016 Report Share Posted January 19, 2016 I think you need your own page on the forum for this project Ron C. 2013 Dynamax Trilogy 3850 D3 2000 Kenworth T2000 Optimus Prime Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broncohauler Posted January 19, 2016 Report Share Posted January 19, 2016 Good reading thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nuke-E Posted January 19, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2016 Just added another section. Don't be shy about asking me questions or picking apart my logic! I'm behind on writing things up still as far as where the project stands today, but if I've done (or can avoid doing) something in a less than ideal manner, I want to hear from you! I promise to include more pictures as the hardware starts to come together too. 45' 2004 Showhauler -- VNL300, ISX, FreedomLine -- RVnerds.com -- where I've started to write about what I'm up to Headlight and Fog Light Upgrades http://deepspacelighting.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RickW Posted January 20, 2016 Report Share Posted January 20, 2016 Look forward to learning more as I plan to apply the concept to both my RV and office. 2017 Entegra Anthem 44A SOLD - 2004 Volvo 780. 465hp and 10sp Auto Shift (from 2010~2017) SOLD - 2009 Montana 3400RL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry&Donna-AK Posted January 20, 2016 Report Share Posted January 20, 2016 Thank you. Waiting to read more. Planning Nanook version 2.0 Nanook "When we made ready to depart, after a few days, Nanook was beside himself with joy. Hudson Stuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nuke-E Posted January 20, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2016 I'm working on it!!! I should have a post up about disassembling the pack early this afternoon, and another with some charge/discharge data later today. I made the mistake of mentioning the project in a Facebook group--everyone there wants to talk about all of the battery fires with Volts. Of course, there has only been one documented fire, 3 weeks after a crash test. 45' 2004 Showhauler -- VNL300, ISX, FreedomLine -- RVnerds.com -- where I've started to write about what I'm up to Headlight and Fog Light Upgrades http://deepspacelighting.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Star Dreamer Posted January 20, 2016 Report Share Posted January 20, 2016 I thought you needed an Arc to go with the Volt to start a fire. But then a fire on a wooden boat would not be a good thing. Very nice reading. I will be curious on how much space and where to locate the batteries and equipment so we can design a new trailer to accommodate if possible. 2005 Freightliner Century S/T, Singled, Air ride ET Jr. hitch 2019 46'+ Dune Sport Man Cave custom 5th wheel toy hauler Owner of the 1978 Custom Van "Star Dreamer" which might be seen at a local car show near you! Check out http://www.hhrvresource.com/ for much more info on HDT's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nuke-E Posted January 20, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2016 Dave, I'll try to post some dimensions soon. The smallest section is about the same size as 2 T105s lined up end-to-end, but probably needs a couple inches more in height. Good news is that's 3.2kWh usable, compared to 1 from the T105s. I'm working on writing up the data from the first time charging it right now. So far, no welding has occurred. Hope to keep it that way! 45' 2004 Showhauler -- VNL300, ISX, FreedomLine -- RVnerds.com -- where I've started to write about what I'm up to Headlight and Fog Light Upgrades http://deepspacelighting.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry&Donna-AK Posted January 20, 2016 Report Share Posted January 20, 2016 Great news I'm excited see your good work, I'm all in. Maybe I'm ahead of myself but I thought the BMS was a problematic area. Just saying, I can wait to read everything. Planning Nanook version 2.0 Nanook "When we made ready to depart, after a few days, Nanook was beside himself with joy. Hudson Stuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbertalotto Posted January 21, 2016 Report Share Posted January 21, 2016 Well, you got my interest! BIG TIME! Great idea using a Volt battery pack. Wish I knew how to subscribe to your site so I don't miss anything. I just recently read another blog about a full timing couple that are "nerds" that went the Lithium route with reasonable results. But it sounded like they were two or three years early. Technology has improved in the last two or three years. I have 10.5Kw on my roof at home from Solar City. This fall they are installing a 8K battery pack in my garage so I can get rid of my backup generator. Once they get that huge factory they are building out in Reno up and running I hope they offer all kinds of Lithium options. The new Porsche used a Lithium battery that costs something like $1200. I've not researched it but I understand it is quite small and very light. Standing by for more updates on your system.....Thanks for sharing! RoyB South of Boston 2021 Dodge 2500 - 6.4L Forest River 19RR Toy Hauler Roofnest Falcon Rooftop Tent www.rvbprecision.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Star Dreamer Posted January 21, 2016 Report Share Posted January 21, 2016 After your post about a T105 battery, I figured I better do some research as I didn't know what you were talking about since I have all 12 volt batteries. At least I figured out that a T105 us a 6 volt golf cart battery. I see that the Volts battery pack is T shaped and is also heated/cooled to maintain life expectancy. Do you plan to keep the same shape configuration and plan to run lines for heating and cooling the pack? 2005 Freightliner Century S/T, Singled, Air ride ET Jr. hitch 2019 46'+ Dune Sport Man Cave custom 5th wheel toy hauler Owner of the 1978 Custom Van "Star Dreamer" which might be seen at a local car show near you! Check out http://www.hhrvresource.com/ for much more info on HDT's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nuke-E Posted January 21, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2016 I've broken down the pack into 3 sections (the top of the T is one, and the long part of the T is broken into 2 sections). I've waffled back and forth between mounting the batteries "outside" between the frame rails at the back of my rig and putting them "inside" in a cabinet in the bedroom. Inside, heating and cooling would be unnecessary with the charge and discharge rates in RV use. Outside, I'd be hooking it up with a heat exchanger and pump, and use the water tank inside as a heat source/sink. 45' 2004 Showhauler -- VNL300, ISX, FreedomLine -- RVnerds.com -- where I've started to write about what I'm up to Headlight and Fog Light Upgrades http://deepspacelighting.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Mayer Posted January 21, 2016 Report Share Posted January 21, 2016 All the Lithium chemistry's I'm aware of for RV use require the environmental control that is best done inside the rig....It is easy that way if you are fulltiming. Where it gets tricky is if you are not and the rig gets very cold. In that case....no charging. I'd be inclined to put them inside...way easier.Assuming you have the space. Jack & Danielle Mayer #60376 Lifetime Member Living on the road since 2000PLEASE no PM's. Email me. jackdanmayer AT gmail 2016 DRV Houston 44' 5er (we still have it) 2022 New Horizons 43' 5er 2016 Itasca 27N 28' motorhome 2019 Volvo 860, D13 455/1850, 236" wb, I-Shift, battery-based APU No truck at the moment - we use one of our demo units 2016 smart Passion, piggyback on the truck -------------------------------------------------------------------------See our website for info on New Horizons 5th wheels, HDTs as tow vehicles, communications on the road, and use of solar powerwww.jackdanmayer.com Principal in RVH Lifestyles. RVH-Lifestyles.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nuke-E Posted January 21, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2016 All the Lithium chemistry's I'm aware of for RV use require the environmental control that is best done inside the rig....It is easy that way if you are fulltiming. Where it gets tricky is if you are not and the rig gets very cold. In that case....no charging. I'd be inclined to put them inside...way easier.Assuming you have the space. Exactly. I'm going to have a disconnect for the battery that will open on low or high voltage, and low or high temperature as a safety measure, and additional disconnects for the charging (over voltage and/or low temperature) and load connections (under voltage). The good news is that we know how much power is necessary to keep the battery warm enough for charging in all of the external environments GM considered--600W. Worst case, the liquid loop on the battery pack could be connected to a hot water source (via heat exchanger) to warm it for charging, and 600W is well less than the 1800W or so of the electric elements in our water heaters. But putting it in heated/cooled space is definitely easier, and since that's what's expected for the inverter/charger, it makes sense. Putting them inside would run afoul of the ANSI/RVIA low voltage standard, but at 48V, that standard isn't applicable. ;-) 45' 2004 Showhauler -- VNL300, ISX, FreedomLine -- RVnerds.com -- where I've started to write about what I'm up to Headlight and Fog Light Upgrades http://deepspacelighting.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nuke-E Posted January 21, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2016 Just added a post with a state of charge curve. http://rvnerds.com/2016/01/21/charging-a-48v-volt-battery-section/ 45' 2004 Showhauler -- VNL300, ISX, FreedomLine -- RVnerds.com -- where I've started to write about what I'm up to Headlight and Fog Light Upgrades http://deepspacelighting.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbertalotto Posted January 21, 2016 Report Share Posted January 21, 2016 Nuke...Have you been following this blog http://www.technomadia.com/lithium/ He seems to be a real pioneer in the "L" world. RoyB South of Boston 2021 Dodge 2500 - 6.4L Forest River 19RR Toy Hauler Roofnest Falcon Rooftop Tent www.rvbprecision.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nuke-E Posted January 21, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2016 Yes, I have. I initially started with a similar approach (except higher voltage), but I really think the Volt battery is a much better deal and will end up being a simpler installation in the end. 45' 2004 Showhauler -- VNL300, ISX, FreedomLine -- RVnerds.com -- where I've started to write about what I'm up to Headlight and Fog Light Upgrades http://deepspacelighting.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbertalotto Posted January 21, 2016 Report Share Posted January 21, 2016 I agree...I think you are on the right path. RoyB South of Boston 2021 Dodge 2500 - 6.4L Forest River 19RR Toy Hauler Roofnest Falcon Rooftop Tent www.rvbprecision.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broncohauler Posted January 21, 2016 Report Share Posted January 21, 2016 So if temperature is such a be deal,how does GM handle it with the volt in cold climates? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nuke-E Posted January 21, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2016 GM actually runs antifreeze through the pack, part of the same system that cools the inverter, and there's a 600W heater to warm the battery. It doesn't charge until the battery is warm enough. I'm not sure if they use the heater at other times (where it'd be less sensitive to being cold) or just when charging. 45' 2004 Showhauler -- VNL300, ISX, FreedomLine -- RVnerds.com -- where I've started to write about what I'm up to Headlight and Fog Light Upgrades http://deepspacelighting.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Star Dreamer Posted January 22, 2016 Report Share Posted January 22, 2016 For us snow birds that aren't smart enough to leave before it gets cold, I wonder if we could plumb a small engine block heater into the antifreeze system that we could plug into the same circuit that we would normally us to keep batteries charged during non use. It may need to be thermostatically controlled so once it was warm enough it would shut off and turn on when too cold. For normal use, would locating it in the basement of the 5th wheel be OK? 2005 Freightliner Century S/T, Singled, Air ride ET Jr. hitch 2019 46'+ Dune Sport Man Cave custom 5th wheel toy hauler Owner of the 1978 Custom Van "Star Dreamer" which might be seen at a local car show near you! Check out http://www.hhrvresource.com/ for much more info on HDT's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nuke-E Posted January 22, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2016 I think you'd be fine. I'm of the opinion that an over/under-temperature shutoff is necessary, both for safety and to protect the battery, which will keep you from getting into too much trouble. One thing to keep in mind is that these batteries aren't significantly different from what you have in cell phones, laptops, etc.--those things don't like temperature extremes either, but we still use them over a pretty wide range of environmental conditions. Of course, I've also had both a phone and laptop battery swell up while on a hot bus ride. Both were connected to power when it happened, and even though the batteries almost doubled in thickness, they still worked fine for the month or so it took me to get replacements. Even the lead acid batteries we all have now suffer degradation in temperature extremes, but there's not much opportunity to protect them in a vented compartment, and even under the best circumstances, if you're using them, they might see 10 years before replacement. I think with the proper care, these lithium batteries should be able to go much longer, and that's at least part of the justification for spending the money. 45' 2004 Showhauler -- VNL300, ISX, FreedomLine -- RVnerds.com -- where I've started to write about what I'm up to Headlight and Fog Light Upgrades http://deepspacelighting.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randyretired Posted January 22, 2016 Report Share Posted January 22, 2016 In our business we use lithium ion batteries in a wide range of temps. However, we use a solar charge that is way less than the rated max and the discharge is way less than the max rating. Many of these batteries are still performing very well even 7 years later. It seems that if the loads and charging are modest the temps are not as critical. This fits very well with solar applications. Running a few lights at cold or hot temps do not seem to cause problems either. Randy 2001 Volvo VNL 42 Cummins ISX Autoshift Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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