True safe weight and Pulling a TT with Arrow vs 5th Wheel

[frankos72]

Hello to all.

 

A quick intro. My wife, 3 kids and I want to get a Hotel on Wheels for weekend getaways and one or 2 week long excursions a year. We have been talking and researching for over a year now. Tow vehicle will be either her SUV with 6.2 Vortex(less pulling power, roomier ride) or My 2500 with Duramax Diesel(more towing capacity, more cramped ride).

 

I had a nice long story typed out here introducing myself and telling the full story, but I accidentally hit the back button on my mouse and now I have to start over and I'm tired. ARGH! So I'm gonna get to the chase right quick.

 

The most important part of this purchase, IMO, to me is making sure I get a trailer that won't leave me white knuckling it across the countryside. I have pulled a trailer for work before with my old 1500 that fishtails if I get over 65 and is really uncomfortable to pull even at 60mph. I can't stand it rocking when I pass or get passed. The feeling would be even worse if my whole family was in the car with me. Heck I even picked up a Equalizer a year ago off craigslist it is such a concern of mine.

 

But after more reading, I was about settled into getting a 5er for their bettering pulling. I went and got a 2500 diesel to do the job. Then I found RV Tow Check calculator. Suddenly the Manufactures ratings were turned upside down. It says I can tow WAY more of a TT than a 5er in my 2500HD. According to the tow check calculator I can only pull about a 7500lb 5th wheel (Impractical, not to mention GMC says 15,400) vs 18,000 lb Travel Trailer (GMC says 13k!)

 

It seems like from some reading on this site that many agree with the calculations that RV Tow Check does based on Gross Axel Weight Rating and the hitch weight. So, assuming that info to be true, I need to get a TT, not a 5er. Can you believe that is the short introduction?

 

Now to my questions.

 

Are the RV Tow Check guidelines really correct or should I stick to the Manufacturers Recommendations?

 

If I go with Tow check and therefore get a Travel Trailer, how close of a ride is an TT+Hensley Arrow vs 5th Wheel?

 

Either way, how far below the recommend numbers do I need to be to avoid trailer sway?

 

 

Thanks again for your help,

 

Jev

 

 

[Kirk W]

Welcome to the Escapee forums! We are happy to have you and will do our best to assist you.

 

As one who has many years of RV experience, I have none with a fifth wheel but there are many here who do have it and will be happy to help. I have towed a number of different travel trailers and presently do tow one now, although we were in the motorhome crowd in the middle of that time. You are thinking right to get the weights right first, for safety and happy traveling. I suggest that you start by using one of the calculators like the one from Changing Gears to work things out and also keep following these forums as there are many very experienced folks here that are far more expert than I in the areas that you need help.

 

We are pleased that you are here so join in often with both comments and questions as often as you wish!

[Chad Heiser]

I've never looked at RV tow check and am not sure where they are getting their information, but the numbers you posted don't add up. You should not be able to tow a heavier TT than a 5er with your truck. You don't list what year or configuration your Duramax is, but I had a 2001 Duramax crew cab 2500 that I used to pull a 13000 lb 5er for many miles and never felt it was too much for the truck. It was well within the specs of the truck and I was comfortable towing with it. I eventually upgraded to a dually and it was night and day difference in towing, but I did that because I knew I wanted a bigger 5er eventually (which I have now). I upgraded the dually to an HDT because I knew I wanted an even bigger 5er (which I have on order now), but that is way above and beyond what you are talking about.

 

If you provide a little more information about your truck (year, cab configuration, drive line, etc), we can give you a more detailed answer to your question. You should have no problem towing a decent sized 5er with your truck though. It really comes down to finding a 5er floor plan you like and then checking the numbers to see for sure if it will work.

[trailertraveler]

...You should not be able to tow a heavier TT than a 5er with your truck. You don't list what year or configuration your Duramax is, but I had a 2001 Duramax crew cab 2500 that I used to pull a 13000 lb 5er for many miles and never felt it was too much for the truck...

I disagree. The limiting factor for a 2500 is often the payload capacity/GVWR or the Rear Axle Rating (RAWR). A 5th wheel should be putting 20-25% of its weight on the pin. A travel trailer will put 10-15% on the pin. That means that for a 13000# 5th wheel, the tow vehicle will need a payload capacity of 2600-3,250#. A 13000# travel trailer will put 1300-1950# on the truck. If I am looking at and reading the Chevy specifications correctly, the 2016 2500HDs with the Duramax engine with a GVWR of 10,000# have payload capicities of 3000# or less.

 

...The most important part of this purchase, IMO, to me is making sure I get a trailer that won't leave me white knuckling it across the countryside. I have pulled a trailer for work before with my old 1500 that fishtails if I get over 65 and is really uncomfortable to pull even at 60mph...

Just be aware that the tires supplied as OEM equipment on many trailers and 5th wheels are speed rated at 65 MPH. Many folks recommend switching to LT tires which more than likely will mean switching to larger rims if the trailer/5th wheel does not have 16" or larger rims. The distance between the axles, the width of the wheel well and the height of the wheel well may or may not be a factor in switching to larger size rims and or tires.

 

...If I go with Tow check and therefore get a Travel Trailer, how close of a ride is an TT+Hensley Arrow vs 5th Wheel?...

I have towed with a Hensley for the past 10 years. We have made 10 trips from the mid-Atlantic to Arizona, Utah, Montana, Wyoming, New Mexico and return and 9 trips South to Florida and back. I have never felt any sway or even the least bit of independent movement of the trailer. Two days ago, we had a pretty constant 25MPH cross wind with higher gusts, no problem. Passing trucks going high speed in the opposite direction has also never been an issue. You will feel a side push just as you would driving a motorhome or panel van, but as I said I have never felt even a hint of sway. Because of the speed rating of trailer tires and for fuel mileage, I tow at between 58-60 MPH.

[frankos72]

I disagree. The limiting factor for a 2500 is often the payload capacity/GVWR or the Rear Axle Rating (RAWR). A 5th wheel should be putting 20-25% of its weight on the pin. A travel trailer will put 10-15% on the pin. That means that for a 13000# 5th wheel, the tow vehicle will need a payload capacity of 2600-3,250#. A 13000# travel trailer will put 1300-1950# on the truck. If I am looking at and reading the Chevy specifications correctly, the 2016 2500HDs with the Duramax engine with a GVWR of 10,000# have payload capicities of 3000# or less.

 

Just be aware that the tires supplied as OEM equipment on many trailers and 5th wheels are speed rated at 65 MPH. Many folks recommend switching to LT tires which more than likely will mean switching to larger rims if the trailer/5th wheel does not have 16" or larger rims. The distance between the axles, the width of the wheel well and the height of the wheel well may or may not be a factor in switching to larger size rims and or tires.

 

Those numbers line up with what I recall. I'll get the details shortly. Thanks for the info on the tires. I did not know that. I had considered that driving a bit slower would be better for mileage so all around slowing down a bit would be much cheaper in more than one way.

 

 

If you provide a little more information about your truck (year, cab configuration, drive line, etc), we can give you a more detailed answer to your question. You should have no problem towing a decent sized 5er with your truck though. It really comes down to finding a 5er floor plan you like and then checking the numbers to see for sure if it will work.

 

Here are my Truck Details:

GMC 2500HD

Crew Cab

6'6" Bed

Duramax Diesel

397 HP @ 3000

765 Torque @ 1600

8 Cylinder 6.6 L

Wheelbase 153.7

Rear end ratio 3.73

 

Vehicle Name

GMC Sierra 2500HD

Body Style

Crew Cab Pickup

Body Code

E63

Drivetrain

Four Wheel Drive

Passenger Capacity

5 5.0 min 5.0 max

Gross Axle Wt Rating - Front

4800 lbs 4800.0 min 5200.0 max

Gross Axle Wt Rating - Rear

6200 lbs 6200.0 min 6200.0 max

Curb Weight - Front

4511 lbs 3788.0 min 4511.0 max

Curb Weight - Rear

2872 lbs 2736.0 min 3280.0 max

Gross Vehicle Weight Rating Cap

10000, 9500 lbs 9500.0 min 10000.0 max

Gross Combined Wt Rating

25100 lbs 21100.0 min 25100.0 max

Dead Weight Hitch - Max Trailer Wt.

5000 lbs 5000.0 min 5000.0 max

Dead Weight Hitch - Max Tongue Wt.

500 lbs 500.0 min 500.0 max

Wt Distributing Hitch - Max Trailer Wt.

13000 lbs 13000.0 min 13000.0 max

Wt Distributing Hitch - Max Tongue Wt.

1950 lbs 1950.0 min 1950.0 max

Fifth Wheel Hitch - Max Trailer Wt.

13900 lbs 13900.0 min 14000.0 max

Fifth Wheel Hitch - Max Tongue Wt.

4275 lbs 3500.0 min 4275.0 max

Maximum Trailering Capacity

13000 lbs 13000.0 min 13000.0 max

[frankos72]

I suggest that you start by using one of the calculators like the one from Changing Gears to work things out

 

So I tried this and even though I had a lot of numbers it ends up only using the Manufacturers limits of 13000 max trailer weight and 1950 max tongue weight.

 

It's so different from the RV Tow Check Calculator. RV Tow Check is more in line with what trailertraveler said taking into account the Rear Gross Axel Weight Rating and the combined Gross Rating.

 

This kinda leaves me where I have been for the last couple days.... Confused.

[trailertraveler]

...Here are my Truck Details:

Curb Weight - Front

4511 lbs 3788.0 min 4511.0 max

Curb Weight - Rear

2872 lbs 2736.0 min 3280.0 max

Gross Vehicle Weight Rating Cap

10000, 9500 lbs 9500.0 min 10000.0 max

Using these numbers the payload capacity of your truck is 2,209 - 3,476# (9,500-4511-3280=2,209# and 10,000-3788-2736= 3,476#) depending on the actual configuration of your truck. With a 20% pin weight, this translates to a 5th wheel of 11,045-17,380#. With a 25% pin weight it would be 8,836 -13,904#. Any payload in excess of that used to calculate the curb weight such as passengers, extra fuel, 5th wheel hitch, etc. will decrease the available payload capacity and thus the weight of the trailer that can be towed.

 

Since you have the truck. Load it as you would ready for travel and get it weighed. Use the GVWR from the sticker on the driver's door frame to calculate your remaining payload capacity. You can then work the numbers to calculate the maximum trailer weight.

 

On edit:

 

When considering a trailer you need to look at all the ratings for the truck such as:

Fifth Wheel Hitch - Max Trailer Wt.

13900 lbs 13900.0 min 14000.0 max

 

 

[frankos72]

With a 20% pin weight, this translates to a 5th wheel of 11,045-17,380#. With a 25% pin weight it would be 8,836 -13,904#.

 

Please help me understand. Should I consider the individual axle ratings, specifically in the rear? What you're talking about is totals for the truck combined based on both axles curb weight. Doesn't the weight of the hitch end up almost entirely on the rear axle?

Since you have the truck. Load it as you would ready for travel and get it weighed. Use the GVWR from the sticker on the driver's door frame to calculate your remaining payload capacity. You can then work the numbers to calculate the maximum trailer weight.

 

This is a great idea. Next time I have the whole family in the car I'll run over the scales with a full tank of diesel. This should help me get a good idea of what the truck will weight on a trip. If possible, I'll weight each axle independently too.

[Ray,IN]

To make a fairly close estimate of the pin weight of a 5er loaded to GVWR; calculate the percentage of the mfrgs. dry/unloaded weight to stated pin weight. Use that percentage to calculate fully-loaded (GVWR) pin weight. Of course that's assuming you load the 5er distributing weight evenly.

I use this because I could not find even one 5er mfgr. that publishes pin weight at GVWR, they only publish unloaded pin weight.

Unloaded weights are, IMO, useless unless you plan to travel with an empty trailer.

The maximum trailer weight rating does depend on the "ready-to-travel" weight of the tow vehicle, (that includes all living beings you carry in the tow vehicle, trailer hitch, etc.)

[trailertraveler]

Please help me understand. Should I consider the individual axle ratings, specifically in the rear? What you're talking about is totals for the truck combined based on both axles curb weight. Doesn't the weight of the hitch end up almost entirely on the rear axle?

Yes, you need to consider all the weight ratings of the tow vehicle; GVWR, FAWR, RAWR, GCWR, Maximum Hitch Weight, Maximum trailer weight, etc. I do not know how to calculate the actual rear axle load of a fifth wheel. I have seen formulas that will let you calculate the weight on the front and rear axle when using a weight distribution hitch for a travel trailer, but I don't have a link to provide for you.

[frankos72]

Where can I find scales? I know of a metal recycle place around the corner but I'm not sure how they would feel about me just checking my weight. Is there a directory of scales that are open to the public?

[skp51443]

Check the Internet for public scales, truck stops usually have them but are a bit more restrictive on what/how you weigh than other places.

 

We went out to our local trash dump, they had a scale and as long as we got out of the way of incoming trucks they had no problem with us getting a lot of different weights.

[Kirk W]

Check the Internet for public scales, truck stops usually have them but are a bit more restrictive on what/how you weigh than other places.

 

We went out to our local trash dump, they had a scale and as long as we got out of the way of incoming trucks they had no problem with us getting a lot of different weights.

We used the scale at a moving company who were happy to help us. If you use a scale that has platforms for each axle, as many do today, then by weighing the entire rig first, then only one side the second time, you can know just what weight is on each wheel by just subtracting for each axle. Weight distribution and balance is very important as you load your RV as large differences will impact handling and tire wear. You may want to read this "How to Weigh Your RV" that is published by RV Safety.

[Big5er]

Check the Internet for public scales, truck stops usually have them but are a bit more restrictive on what/how you weigh than other places.

 

I am not sure what you are referring to Stan. I have never seen any truck stop that restricts what you can weigh...especially a truck with a trailer. They are in the business of weighing things. That CAT scale operator has no clue what you are driving in most instances, hence the intercom system. Pull on the scale, talk to the little box, pull off the scale, go inside, pay the man and get your scale ticket. I have weighed my HDT, with and without the trailer. I have weighed the HDT with the trailer, with and without the smart and also without the trailer, with and without the smart.

 

Frankos, at a public scale, walk over and look at it before you drive onto it. The scale is broken into sections. Remember their primary usage is 18 wheelers. There are usually 3 pads/sections. Typically 1 for the steer axle, 1 for the drive tandems and 1 for the trailer tandems. Try to position your pickup and trailer so that you can get separate weights for each axle/group. Put the steer axle on 1 section, the drive axle on 1 and the trailer alone on the last 1. If you have a passenger, explain it to them and let them guide you. It's not always easy to see the sections when you are driving. Be ready to jump out and walk up to where the intercom is, if it isn't close to your window. It is also likely to be WAAAYYY up there (18 wheelers, remember?), so take a walking stick with you so you can reach the call button. A small grandchild on your shoulders will work also The operator will ask things like company name, truck number and sometimes "first weigh" or "re-weigh", if they give a price break for re-weighing. Just make up stuff. It isn't important for your purposes. Just yell so they can hear you way down there: "Name?", BOB!! "Truck Number?", 62,731!! (ok, maybe a 1, 2 or 3 digit truck number is better, but you get the picture )

[skp51443]

Ah, maybe I could word that better.

 

Not restrict what you can weigh, if it fits on the scale and you pay the weigh-master they are probably happy with it.

 

I was thinking how you weigh, been to a lot of scales that forbid unhitching the trailer on the scales. Quite a few, particularly ones hard for the weigh-master to see have barriers of some sort to keep trucks from hanging a bit off the side to "adjust" their weight ticket. Been at a couple that got cranky about more than one re-weigh at a discounted price from the original weigh.

 

I never tried just weighing one side or getting individual wheel weights at a truck stop but had no issues doing that at out of the way and not too busy scales.

[Ron]

Yes, you need to consider all the weight ratings of the tow vehicle; GVWR, FAWR, RAWR, GCWR, Maximum Hitch Weight, Maximum trailer weight, etc. I do not know how to calculate the actual rear axle load of a fifth wheel. I have seen formulas that will let you calculate the weight on the front and rear axle when using a weight distribution hitch for a travel trailer, but I don't have a link to provide for you.

 

We tow a 23' 10,300# TT with a ¾ ton Chevy Avalanche (8.1L gas). The TT, by design, has a very heavy hitch weight (1,400#, 13.6%). The advantage is that I have absolutely no problem with sway using an Equilizer Hitch. I went through a series of problems with the truck hitch and spent a lot of effort studying the issues related to weight distribution. I found some very knowledgable people discuss the issues on a Woodall's message board. It's a very long thread but if you really want to understand the rather complex issues related to TT towing (imo much more complex than towing a 5th wheel) then it's worth a read. The thread is here:

http://forums.woodalls.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/thread/tid/16065296/srt/pa/pging/1/page/1

 

A useful Excel calculator is buried somewhere in this thread. I tried to attach it here but I get a message saying I'm not allowed to upload this kind of file. I may have gotten it from a PM to one of the contributors of the thread. You can PM me if you want me to send you a copy.

 

---ron

[Kirk W]

I was thinking how you weigh, been to a lot of scales that forbid unhitching the trailer on the scales. Quite a few, particularly ones hard for the weigh-master to see have barriers of some sort to keep trucks from hanging a bit off the side to "adjust" their weight ticket. Been at a couple that got cranky about more than one re-weigh at a discounted price from the original weigh.

 

I never tried just weighing one side or getting individual wheel weights at a truck stop but had no issues doing that at out of the way and not too busy scales.

My experience was much like yours. Truck stop scales are only good for the big picture. In the past I have weighed at a moving company and at a grain elevator. Most recently I took my current travel trailer to a gravel & topsoil company where I weighed the tow truck alone, total trailer & truck, trailer only both hooked up and unhooked, and one side of the trailer. The scale operator was very interested in what I was doing and why. I moved out of the way for a few trucks belonging to the company and worked between loads. The whole thing only cost me $20. But always call before you go to this type of business since most of them rarely weigh other than for their own business.

[kb0zke]

Use the gross weight of whatever trailer you are looking at to calculate the pin or hitch weight. If you are looking at a 5'er, take 25% of the trailer's gross weight rating for your pin weight. For a TT take 15% of the gross weight for the hitch weight. If the rear axle of the truck can handle that weight you are good to go on to the next step. If not, start over.

 

Remember that the hitch mechanism itself has weight, and that weight has to be included in your calculations. You can load your trailer in such a was as to increase or decrease the hitch/pin weight. As long as you are in the range of 10-15% for a TT or 20-25% for a 5'er you are good. If the hitch mechanism is, say, 200 pounds, you can either add that to the tongue or pin weight OR move some weight to the rear to reduce your hitch/pin weight by that much.

 

I'm in the camp of not wanting to exceed ANY rated maximum, so if axle rating, gross weight, gross combined weight are ALL within the limits I'm happy. If any of them would be over I need to change something. We're currently talking about switching to a 34' Airstream TT towed by an F250. The Airstream has a gross weight of 9800 pounds, and Airstream says that tongue weight should not exceed 1000 pounds. That's on the low side of that 10-15% window, so we'll have to load in such a way as to keep the tongue weight right at that 1000 pound mark. The hitch mechanism will probably be another 100-125 pounds, and there will have to be stuff in the bed of the truck (we're full-timers), so an F250 is the right choice. I will also look at an F350 - just in case.

[frankos72]

Alright folks. Thanks for all the help to this point. We have finally found a floor plan that we like that comes in a light enough configuration I'm comfortable with it as our first 5th Wheel.

 

We are looking at a

Prowler P293

or

Xtreme Light Elkridge P293

 

Both are made by hearland on the same line and weight 8954Dry & 1640 hitch (18.3%)

 

 

Using these numbers the payload capacity of your truck is 2,209 - 3,476# (9,500-4511-3280=2,209# and 10,000-3788-2736= 3,476#) depending on the actual configuration of your truck. With a 20% pin weight, this translates to a 5th wheel of 11,045-17,380#. With a 25% pin weight it would be 8,836 -13,904#. Any payload in excess of that used to calculate the curb weight such as passengers, extra fuel, 5th wheel hitch, etc. will decrease the available payload capacity and thus the weight of the trailer that can be towed.

 

May family weights: 480ish and loaded hitch would be 1811#(9900GVWR * .183) for total Payload 2291.

 

I have added a BW Turnover Ball and I'm leaning towards a Anderson Ultimate Aluminum to complete the hitch. Thats about another 150lbs.

 

 

Gross Axle Wt Rating - Front

4800 lbs 4800.0 min 5200.0 max

Gross Axle Wt Rating - Rear

6200 lbs 6200.0 min 6200.0 max

Curb Weight - Front

4511 lbs 3788.0 min 4511.0 max

Curb Weight - Rear

2872 lbs 2736.0 min 3280.0 max

Gross Vehicle Weight Rating Cap

10000, 9500 lbs 9500.0 min 10000.0 max

Gross Combined Wt Rating

25100 lbs 21100.0 min 25100.0 max

Fifth Wheel Hitch - Max Trailer Wt.

13900 lbs 13900.0 min 14000.0 max

Fifth Wheel Hitch - Max Tongue Wt.

4275 lbs 3500.0 min 4275.0 max

Maximum Trailering Capacity

13000 lbs 13000.0 min 13000.0 max

[Tex Bigfoot]

Frankos 72

Just one quick thing as you have gotten some good info from the brain power on this site .

Thank you for taking the wt. that you are pulling seriously. As someone that has been around the block a few times towing, i have seen way to many overloaded pickups towing what the dealer told the new owner " sure it will pull that no problem " and then there they are out on the highway. Not only a danger to themselves but to me and everyone else.

 

​You are going about this the right way.

[trailertraveler]

Both are made by hearland on the same line and weight 8954Dry & 1640 hitch (18.3%)

 

May family weights: 480ish and loaded hitch would be 1811#(9900GVWR * .183) for total Payload 2291.

You will have to balance the weight placed in the 5th wheel carefully to maintain the 18.3% hitch weight. 5th wheels, other than toy haulers, generally have the large storage compartments up front resulting in an increase in the hitch weight percentage. Hopefully that will be enough to result in a good towing experience. Most recommend a 5th wheel hitch weight of 20-25%.

 

The specifications you list for your truck give a minimum and maximum for the Gross Vehicle Weight Rating and Gross Combined Weight Rating. Is this what is on the sticker on the truck or is it from a spec sheet from the manufacturer? You should use the ratings from the actual sticker on your truck, usually located on the frame of the driver's door.

[bruce t]

I'm intrigued by the title of this thread and been reading along. These sorts of discussions always make for interesting reading.

What intrigues me here is the word 'safe'. In reality the nut that holds the wheel is the weak link. Regardless of what pin weights, ball weights, GCVW etc etc etc etc The 'safe' bit is a two part proposition. Sure get the figures right. But get the brain in working order and make it safe before hitting the road.

 

IMHO it's far too easy for us 'old' folks to retire after driving a VW Beetle for 50 years and jump behind the wheel of a 1 ton truck pulling a 40ft home. "No experience required'. Reminds me of the old guy I met at a dealer complaining that his 35ft A Class, with a Ford gas engine, couldn't maintain 80mph up hill!!!

 

Do all the figures. Get it just right. But where are the rules about how and where you load the weight? Where are the rules about how to accelerate and brake. How to pass and how to use the mirrors. Yes those big shiny things that hand out the side of you vehicle. Then where are the inspections to check tyre pressures and tread depths?

 

It's a complicated formula. But for every ones safety I would like to see tougher driving tests.

 

Yes I'll pull my head in now.

 

regards

[Kirk W]

It's a complicated formula. But for every ones safety I would like to see tougher driving tests.

Unless it has changed since I last took a driving test, there is very little about equipment safety issues on the US driving tests, even for an automobile..... Perhaps there should be more involved in any driving test?

 

If the Texas RV driving test is any example of what you are thinking of, I question how much it actually changes, based upon what I hear described in posts about how easy it is to pass. I have never had the need to take any special testing for our RVs because none were heavy enough to require the special licensing, but I wonder if I should have been required to do so? Over the years that I have driven, I have towed and operated quite a bit of heavy equipment, both RV and others such as horse trailers and farm equipment. Most of it I learned by doing with very little instruction. We now live in a senior community and watching my neighbor's driving skills degrade has made me also wonder about the age issue, especially when operating an RV..... (Of course my own skills are still far above those of the average driver! )

[Jimalberta]

Bruce you raise some good points and I agree with them. I would like to add however that safety is not just in having proper equipment and skills. Its an attitude ....and that is where the system gets bogged down. The attitude has to be taught.

 

For example I worked in the oil and gas industry for some time and they stress safety. Every time you turned around there was a course about safety for something or other and the purpose of that of course was to instill an attitude of watchfulness and to look out for the other guy as well as increasing skills and knowledge.. It helped a lot.

 

I see this lack of attitude every day especially on the streets ....people texting, speeding , not caring at all about anyone else......the " me first" mentality and everyone look out because here I come. Sadly I see it in the proffessional drivers as well and that should not be. Truckers, cab drivers and delivery people have become a menace on the road because of the lack of courtesy and respect to all drivers. Hopefully we RVers will be an example to all.

[bruce t]

What worries me is that if you drive an 18 wheeler for commercial purposes the requirements are different from someone who is 80 years old in a Volvo pulling a 45ft 5th wheeler. Makes no sense to me.

 

Didn't Oregon try to change some years ago and the RV industry went into a meltdown about it? I guess there's a difference to being killed by a truck driver than an Rver!!!!!

 

regards