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What is happening in the truck market?


Kirk W

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There was some discussion of a uniform set of tow ratings tests a couple years ago, whatever came of that?

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. I really wouldn't care If someone wanted to tow a toy-hauler with a pedal car except that doing so could well impact the safety of others around him on the road should that 23,000 lb trailer lose it's brakes, and losing trailer brakes can and does happen for a myriad of reasons, it's happened to me three separate times over the years for different reasons. I would hope that someone contemplating towing a large heavy trailer would look beyond the hype and select an appropriate tow vehicle to keep himself and everyone around him safer.

Your point is valid, at least to some degree, although for years we have thrown design weight limits at the new truck/RV combination buyers as reasoning behind the selection of the proper truck. No question that the heavier the tow vehicle is, the safer that it is in the event of brake failure on what is being towed, but if we look to the commercial side of the truck world there are very few semi trucks on the highway that highways that when loaded, have a tractor that is anywhere close to heavy enough to control the loads that they haul if they loose all trailer brakes.

 

Commercial Vehicle Weight Standards

National weight standards apply to commercial vehicle operations on the Interstate Highway System, an approximately 40,000-mile system of limited access, divided highways that spans the nation. Off the Interstate Highway System, states may set their own commercial vehicle weight standards.

Federal commercial vehicle maximum standards on the Interstate Highway System are:

Single Axle: 20,000 pounds Tandem Axle: 34,000 pounds Gross Vehicle Weight: 80,000 pounds

Good travelin !...............Kirk

Full-time 11+ years...... Now seasonal travelers.
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One question that I have on the new, increased weight ratings from the pickup truck side is if they have increased braking capacity to go with the higher weight and towing capacity ratings? Would not the DOT and the highway safety people get involved if they did not?

 

I'm bringing up these questions, not because I support the increased ratings from the truck market but because I am not sure just what they now mean or how they are justified.

Good travelin !...............Kirk

Full-time 11+ years...... Now seasonal travelers.
Kirk & Pam's Great RV Adventure

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On the bias of HDT we that have towed with one realize how safe they are. But in reality a lighter weight camper is rather safe with a ldt. We that tow 20k+ really appreciate our trucks. Most campers fall in the 15k or less weight. Personally I rather tow with the hdt regardless. It is such a smooth ride. My dually never rode this smooth even with the 17k DRV. Count the number of folks that have air bags on their ldt to tow the weights they do. If a truck is overloaded, bags don't correct this. Most don't criticize them but does we that have enough truck. I do believe the madness in the ldt market will eventually come to an end. But I am afraid it will be a major law suit from a death.

2003 Teton Grand Freedom towed with 2006 Freightliner Century 120 across the beautiful USA welding pipe.https://photos.app.goo.gl/O32ZjgzSzgK7LAyt1

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Kirk,

 

There is a standard for towing in the SAE J2708 specs. The BIG problem that I have with them is what that test is checking. Almost everything is a towing capacity test over a limited time frame to check cooling capacity, engine output, acceleration, etc. The test allows a 150 pound driver, 150 pound passenger, the BASE weight of a stripped down truck, the towing package and another 100 pounds for accessories to the hitch package (hitch ball, weight distribution bars, etc). When was the last time you actually SAW a truck like that on the road? No AC, power seats, power windows, leather package, 4WD, 150 pounds of audio gear, and a limited amount of fuel is NOT what people are towing with.

 

In addition to that the test involves ONE braking test. ONE. For the trucks we are talking about that involves stopping the combo truck/trailer from a WHOPPING 20 mph in 80 feet or less and stay in an 11.5 foot wide lane.

 

NOTE that is ONE stop to pass the test. Awesome performance test isn't it? Nothing about fade, long downhills,just one stopping test.

 

By the way, Don't know if you are aware of commercial truck brakes but the spring cans that are on the class 7 and 8 trucks and the trailers they haul over the road will apply the full brakes on a loss of air to bring it to a stop. No air, you don't move.

 

For a good explanation of the J2807 specs, read the info at this link:

 

http://www.trucktrend.com/features/1509-sae-cargo-volume-and-towing-standards-whale-watching/

 

Edit. Please note that the tests are performed with a trailer that has a frontal area of 60 sq ft. Ever figured the frontal area of the 8.5 wide, 13 foot high campers a lot of us own? Even allowing for the loss of area under the trailer, a fifth wheel that size is 50% over that allowed test amount.

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One question that I have on the new, increased weight ratings from the pickup truck side is if they have increased braking capacity to go with the higher weight and towing capacity ratings?

Brakes don't stand alone, so even if they beef the brakes up to allow them to deal with more heat from heavier loads you are still limited in your stopping distance by the tire contact patch. Bigger brakes and better heat management is all well and good for descending grades but it won't have an impact on panic stopping distance.

 

From the second article linked below:

 

The J2807 standards also have requirements for the braking performance of the truck-and-trailer combination at its maximum GCWR. Combos with a maximum tow rating of more than 3,000 pounds are required to stop completely from 20 mph in 80 feet or less. During this stop test, the trailer must remain within an 11.5-foot-wide lane throughout the entire stop. In addition to the active testing, the parking brake must be able to hold the truck and trailer firmly in place both upward and downward on a 12 percent grade when it is at the maximum GCWR.

 

On the SAE towing standard: http://standards.sae.org/j2807_201602/ ($74 to get a copy)

 

 

The SAE J2807 standard includes acceleration, climbing, launching, and vehicle weight parameters. Vehicles with a gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) less than 8500 lb (3855 kg) must carry a 150-lb (68 kg) driver and a 150-lb passenger. Vehicles heavier than 8500 lb add an extra 100 lb of equipment.

For a given trailer weight, J2807 compliance means the tow vehicle must accelerate to 30 mph in under 12 s, and accelerate to 60 mph in under 30 s. Roll-on acceleration 40 to 60 mph on a level surface must be accomplished in under 18 s. Vehicles with dual rear wheels are permitted extra time to complete this test. For the climb test that replicates Davis Dam, tow vehicles must sustain a minimum 40 mph with their A/C on its highest setting. “Duallies” again have a lesser (35 mph) minimum-speed bogie.
The J2807 launch test replicates a 12% grade, and requires the tow vehicle to move 16 ft (4.9 m) uphill, from a standstill, five times within five minutes in both forward and reverse.

 

Articles on J2807: http://truckyeah.jalopnik.com/what-is-sae-j2807-what-does-it-mean-for-trucks-1593305929

-- http://www.trucktrend.com/how-to/towing/1502-sae-j2807-tow-tests-the-standard/

 

Dodge: http://articles.sae.org/13365/

 

Ford: http://articles.sae.org/14710/

 

Chevy: http://articles.sae.org/12607/

 

Toyota: I think they adopted it in 2011 and used it for all trucks from 2013 on.

 

Nissan: http://articles.sae.org/13829/

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Safe. Sane. Legal. All nice words. But I'll be the devils advocate here. We are currently driving all over the country everyday. Done 10000 miles in the last 8 weeks. Seen just about every combination known to mankind. The reality is that there are thousands of 'trucks', Fords, Chevy and Rams on the road pulling all sorts of rigs. Even seen a few pulling 53 foot shipping containers. Even 'trucks' pulling large toyhaulers with a boat or 4x4 on behind. Triples. Yet in all those miles we are yet to see one in trouble. (The other day we drove over the Million Dollar Highway from Ouray to Silverton. Yup encountered two 3/4 ton pickups towing LARGE 5th wheels).

 

So putting all the figures aside, is it so much an issue as some folks seem to make it out to be?

 

Keep in mind I'm not condoning stupidity. I wouldn't do it. But!!!!!!!! But is it as bad as overloaded motorhomes? Or that rusty old F100 beside you at the traffic lights with no lights or maybe no brakes? So I guess what I'm saying is that it's nice to be 'technically correct' but that's not how the world works. I think, like many things in life, we all need to keep everything in perspective.

 

Off to put my fireproof suit on now. :unsure:

 

regards

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I really don't have a dog in this fight, since I tow a travel trailer with a GVWR of 3600# with a truck that has a curb weight of just under 6000#. But I'm interested in what folks have to say about the new trucks, both good and bad.

 

I have a friend who went from towing his 43' fifth wheel with a GM Kodiac C4500 RV hauler to a new 2016 Ford F450. He did so because his wife is having knee and back problems and the F450 is much less problem for her to get into and out of. While he has not had it for long, thus far he says the new truck handles the trailer better than the previous one. It was conversation with him that got me to looking at the new trucks and to reading the reviews on them. It made me wonder if there were any members of the forum who have considered one of the new trucks and why they did or didn't choose to change to one.

Good travelin !...............Kirk

Full-time 11+ years...... Now seasonal travelers.
Kirk & Pam's Great RV Adventure

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Kirk I have a direct comparison, we had a 2000 F350 DRW SC that we pulled out 16K trailer with and it did a great job for 13 years, then we bought a 2013 truck with everything that same but the motor and transmission and I will guarantee the 2013 is a more stable truck that handles the load better both cornering and especially braking. It doesn't ride as good as the 2000 without the trailer but it's a truck not a car, it will take the heavier spring package anyday.

 

Denny

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I went from a 2005 3500 GMC and went to a 2013 Chevy 3500. The 2013 was a towing beast. Lots of power, larger brakes. I found suspension was stiffer. But even it bottomed out on Teton. The ride was not satisfactory.

2003 Teton Grand Freedom towed with 2006 Freightliner Century 120 across the beautiful USA welding pipe.https://photos.app.goo.gl/O32ZjgzSzgK7LAyt1

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We're about to go with one of the newer trucks, so I don't yet have experience to tell you how it will run. My expectation is that we will be in a 5er that maxes out at 22k, fully loaded including water. The trailer is still being built, but given other models and some of what we've done to reduce weight, that's my best estimate at this point. We're going with a Ram 5500. Towing capacity just under 30k lbs, with a higher RAWR than the 3500 and other capabilities that make it safer for towing. I honestly believe this will be a safe comfortable arrangement or I wouldn't do it.

 

We considered an HDT, discussed it for a long time, read dozens of articles, read dozens of skeptics views. I've under towed and towed with a vehicle which had more than sufficient towing capacity, but was a bad configuration for towing back when we were far less knowledgeable. It's no where near as fun as towing with a good configuration. But the HDT had a lot of negatives for us, including my knee issues like your friend's wife. And in the end we decided that we believed the configuration we've chosen is safe. While it's true that the run up of tow ratings in the last few years makes me skeptical, it's also true that there are a lot of visible changes to the vehicle specs that give the engineering credibility. And we will still be running with a >20% margin on all specs. And we plan to get our weights early and check them regularly to make sure we don't lose that margin.

 

And if we discover that it is not safe enough or comfortable enough for us? We will figure out how to change over to a HDT. I learned a long time ago what the concept of sunk cost means when I've made a bad decision.

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The 5500 Ram with air ride is a sweet truck. Will it stop 24k with no brakes? I'm asking not criticizing. How is it for a daily commute? My 3500 wasn't a good commute. I considered that truck but decided the ride for a commute and the high cost of it wouldn't work for us. Sure hope it does for ya'll. If you don't mind, what you have cost wise in that truck?

2003 Teton Grand Freedom towed with 2006 Freightliner Century 120 across the beautiful USA welding pipe.https://photos.app.goo.gl/O32ZjgzSzgK7LAyt1

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A fully outfitted 5500 Ram with a midline-upperline hauler body and reasonable options is going to retail around $92K. You may be able to get it for less, or it may be a little more...it "just depends".

 

I can tell you that Ram with a trailer in the 22-23K area performs pretty well. It lacks power on BIG mountains, but overall it is quite capable. I would not hesitate to use it in that application.

 

Despite what you hear about an HDT, there are definite negatives to them, and they are NOT the tow vehicle that meets the needs of everyone. We like ours just fine, and having the small car is great. You can laugh at a smart all you want, but they are safe, relatively comfortable cars for the application we use them in. I actually like ours, and I did not think I would.

 

An HDT will outperform a "super pickup" in every category while towing. It will be far more comfortable, and offer more versatility. But that does not make it the right choice of a tow vehicle for every situation.

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2016 DRV Houston 44' 5er (we still have it)
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2016 Itasca 27N 28' motorhome 
2019 Volvo 860, D13 455/1850, 236" wb, I-Shift, battery-based APU
No truck at the moment - we use one of our demo units
2016 smart Passion, piggyback on the truck
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See our website for info on New Horizons 5th wheels, HDTs as tow vehicles, communications on the road, and use of solar power
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I really don't have a dog in this fight, since I tow a travel trailer with a GVWR of 3600# with a truck that has a curb weight of just under 6000#. But I'm interested in what folks have to say about the new trucks, both good and bad.

 

I have a friend who went from towing his 43' fifth wheel with a GM Kodiac C4500 RV hauler to a new 2016 Ford F450. He did so because his wife is having knee and back problems and the F450 is much less problem for her to get into and out of. While he has not had it for long, thus far he says the new truck handles the trailer better than the previous one. It was conversation with him that got me to looking at the new trucks and to reading the reviews on them. It made me wonder if there were any members of the forum who have considered one of the new trucks and why they did or didn't choose to change to one.

 

 

Then how does she manage the three or four steps into the fiver? While I don't have any experience with the Kodiak trucks, my experience with the FL m2 has convinced me that I would never go back to a dually pick-up. It will be the last truck I will ever HAVE to buy, Its shorter turning radius makes it much easier to park, it is not longer or wider than my old 350 dually and by sitting up high I can see over most other vehicles and anticipate whats coming in front of me. Not to mention its much more capable braking system. Good used ones can be had for not much more or even less than a new LTD.

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The big deciding factor for us was the rough ride of the dually towing. Also add to fact our parking lots are a pain with a long bed dually. Also the high cost of a daily commute with the dually. The Smart gets a lot of laughs and we enjoy poking fun about it with others. It is a very low cost to operate and one can park it anywhere. Also we have DW's new Durango for our trips. At nearly 100k for a fully fitted 5500 Ram I can get a very nice HDT and new Smart.

2003 Teton Grand Freedom towed with 2006 Freightliner Century 120 across the beautiful USA welding pipe.https://photos.app.goo.gl/O32ZjgzSzgK7LAyt1

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Then how does she manage the three or four steps into the fiver? While I don't have any experience with the Kodiak trucks, my experience with the FL m2 has convinced me that I would never go back to a dually pick-up. It will be the last truck I will ever HAVE to buy, Its shorter turning radius makes it much easier to park, it is not longer or wider than my old 350 dually and by sitting up high I can see over most other vehicles and anticipate whats coming in front of me. Not to mention its much more capable braking system. Good used ones can be had for not much more or even less than a new LTD.

My wife is mobile challenged. She is slow coming in camper and uses a cane some. She can get in HDT but it is a challenge. Those steps are far apart for her. Also very vertical climb. I'm with you though, don't believe I ever go back to a LDT. Have not got her to drive it yet.

2003 Teton Grand Freedom towed with 2006 Freightliner Century 120 across the beautiful USA welding pipe.https://photos.app.goo.gl/O32ZjgzSzgK7LAyt1

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Jack is right. When all is said and done, we'll be a little under $90k for the 5500 with hauler bed because of incentives and such. For the 5'er, we've replaced the standard stairs with some much like others have shown here which are deeper and more stable. My knees aren't awful at this point, but they are definitely an issue that isn't likely to get better. And as a choice between a 5500 and an HDT for a daily driver, the 5500 will be easier. Neither will be easy. If we were going to be 25k, the discussion would be different I think. And we are fortunate enough that if this choice is wrong, we will be able to change our minds. It will be painful, but not the end of the world.

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And as a choice between a 5500 and an HDT for a daily driver, the 5500 will be easier. Neither will be easy.

Almost everyone these days that is fulltiming with an HDT carries a smart as a daily driver, OR carries a larger vehicle piggyback on the truck. So the HDT as a daily driver is not so much a factor these days.

 

I'll point out that with my Volvo 610 (630) I set it up as a daily driver, and as compared to the F550 I had, it excelled. It was way better to drive around town, and was only 6" more wheelbase, and 1.5' longer overall. I did not configure it to carry a car, but it could carry a motorcycle. Or ATV. I did that for a little over three years. I'm not exaggerating when I say the Volvo was far easier to drive, and turned a whole lot better than the F550.

Jack & Danielle Mayer #60376 Lifetime Member
Living on the road since 2000

PLEASE no PM's. Email me. jackdanmayer AT gmail
2016 DRV Houston 44' 5er (we still have it)
2022 New Horizons 43' 5er
2016 Itasca 27N 28' motorhome 
2019 Volvo 860, D13 455/1850, 236" wb, I-Shift, battery-based APU
No truck at the moment - we use one of our demo units
2016 smart Passion, piggyback on the truck
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
See our website for info on New Horizons 5th wheels, HDTs as tow vehicles, communications on the road, and use of solar power
www.jackdanmayer.com
Principal in RVH Lifestyles. RVH-Lifestyles.com

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We are daily driving the Volvo 610. 99% of the time its great. That 1% though is usually a pain in the rear..... like trying to find parking for it IN the French Quarter New Orleans.... Couldn't do it because they wouldn't let me in their lot.

So we walked a little farther !

Alie & Jim + 8 paws

2017 DRV Memphis 

BART- 1998 Volvo 610

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I was in a rush this morning so I didn't have time to mention that the M-2 has an all aluminum body, huge storage compartments, a 160gal fuel capacity so I can fill up at the cheapest fuel stops and skip the expensive interstate truck stops, air ride rear suspension/cab/seats which really help my back and sciatica issues, Trailer Saver air hitch that allows me to adjust the trailer to tow level, weighs only 1000lbs less than my trailer and did I mention the huge brakes? I do give up about 3mpg over my old 350 dually. There is simply no comparison between this and a LDT. I should also mention that my wife loves it for the ease of handling and better ride. So, to answer the OP's question, no, I do not think that LDTs are going to put MDTs or HDTs out of the RV hauling business.

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One question that I have on the new, increased weight ratings from the pickup truck side is if they have increased braking capacity to go with the higher weight and towing capacity ratings? Would not the DOT and the highway safety people get involved if they did not?

 

I'm bringing up these questions, not because I support the increased ratings from the truck market but because I am not sure just what they now mean or how they are justified.

Virtually all cl 1-3 trucks today have larger brakes, this is the reason none today have 16" wheels, instead they have a minimum size of 18" up to 20". Larger rims are required to make room for the larger brakes.

 

2000 Winnebago Ultimate Freedom USQ40JD, ISC 8.3 Cummins 350, Spartan MM Chassis. USA IN 1SG retired;Good Sam Life member,FMCA ." And so, my fellow Americans: ask not what your country can do for you--ask what you can do for your country.  John F. Kennedy 20 Jan 1961

 

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Virtually all cl 1-3 trucks today have larger brakes, this is the reason none today have 16" wheels, instead they have a minimum size of 18" up to 20". Larger rims are required to make room for the larger brakes.

I am not an expert but the trucks that have the18-20" wheel sizes are not increasing the towing capacity or braking on trucks meant to tow 20000 lb loads. Most are for a certain look a population wants. I doubt that their brakes are more powerful than the class three trucks with 17" wheels. Look at all of the dually trucks and they are at 17" wheels with disc brakes. I haven't checked the tire ratings for all of the18-20" tires but my guess is that it is far less than the 17" tires used on the 3500 class trucks.

 

Not arguing but need to understand your point

Tim & Cheryl
2015 Mobile Suites 39 TKSB3
2009 Volvo 670 D13 I-Shift  “Walter”

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No one has mentioned that 'most' commercial vehicles run with air brakes. Far more effective.

 

Re a comment above that the tractor does most of the braking. Well not always the case. I know a number of folks in the trucking industry. They all agree that many subcontractors crank up the brakes on the trailer to save the wear and tear on their tractor.

 

This is one of those subjects that can have so many variables that no one answer is correct. Common sense, yes it's not so common now days, is the key.

 

regards

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