Buying a HDT Tomorrow

[Rick & Alana]

I stand corrected

[Bob86ZZ4]

There is another thing to consider regarding cdl or not that I haven't seen mentioned here. Maybe I missed it since I'm not a very good reader. There is a Federal law that does not allow prosecutors to dismiss or amend citations to drivers holding a CDL. It doesn't even matter what the driver was driving when given the citation. A very close friend of mine had a Class A CDL in MN. He got a ticket for a relatively minor offense while driving his car in SD. He went to the prosecutor to see about getting the tag reduced, dismissed, or amended to a lesser penalty since he didn't want it to show up on his license record and effect his employment. The Prosecutor said he would be happy to dismiss the citation but couldn't because of the federal law since he held a Class A CDL. That right there is a pretty good reason NOT to get a CDL unless you actually need it.

[bmzero]

The more I learn about CDL's, the more I want to stay away from them if possible. According to the Alabama laws, I should not need one.

http://alisondb.legislature.state.al.us/acas/codeofalabama/1975/32-6-49.7.htm

Commercial driver license requirements do not apply to drivers of vehicles used for personal use such as recreational vehicles which would otherwise meet the definition of a commercial motor vehicle.

Regarding the AllState questions above, AllState (non-commercial) literally does not have a listing for a F450 in their system. They had to go into the commercial system to find the truck. It is not a commercial truck. I had no choice but to get a commercial policy if I wanted to stay with them.

To the racing questions, yes, I do haul a race car (Polaris RZR - www.OctaneRaceTeam.com) in my toy hauler occasionally. However, I am not a professional race team and I do not get a salary for racing. We race a handful of times a year for fun, but sometimes we do win money, which really throws this whole situation into limbo. I would like to compare this to a RV'er participating in a golf tournament that paid back money or contingency every now and then. Legally, there is no difference.

All of the above confusion is why I participated in the hauler discussion at the Performance Racing Industry show last weekend that I mentioned earlier. Lonnie Troyer, Sales Manager at Show Hauler, was a member of the RVIA when they put together their lobbying team that eventually was able to pass the 26000# exemption for RV's. We discussed ways the motorsports industry could begin the process of legislating a similar exemption for recreational motorsports enthusiasts.

However, I do not want this to turn into a racing discussion. If anyone would like to discuss the motorsports issues further, please PM me or let me know and I'll create a topic specific to recreational racer.

Again, I want to thank each of you that weighed in on this thread. A lot of boards are not so giving of their time and I really appreciate it.

Congrats on the truck. Nice truck with great specs. Hard to find that early of a 730 with an IShift. they are quite rare, indeed. ESPECIALLY with a D16. Welcome to the "big power". Hit the hills with that engine, put your trans into performance mode, and eat the hills up.... My truck loafs up 7% grades with 50K+ total load.

 

Jack, I really appreciate you jumping in. I read over your website several times before making the jump into a HDT. Your site was very helpful.

 

I'm going to start a new thread with some interior photos of the 730 and my plans for the build.

[Star Dreamer]

Congradulations on the new HDT, a 730 was our first choice but not many were available and out of our price range when we were looking.

 

One thing on the racing, until the laws change, you may need to start having to do it for "bragging rights" only and leave the money and trophies to the others.

 

Have fun pulling the toy hauler with it, we sure do.

Dave

[bmzero]

Congradulations on the new HDT, a 730 was our first choice but not many were available and out of our price range when we were looking.

 

One thing on the racing, until the laws change, you may need to start having to do it for "bragging rights" only and leave the money and trophies to the others.

 

Have fun pulling the toy hauler with it, we sure do.

Dave

Thanks, Dave.

 

You're absolutely right about the racing issue. I have been racing for over 20 years. It's a situation I am very familiar with.

[Big5er]

The more I learn about CDL's, the more I want to stay away from them if possible. According to the Alabama laws, I should not need one.

 

http://alisondb.legislature.state.al.us/acas/codeofalabama/1975/32-6-49.7.htm

Commercial driver license requirements do not apply to drivers of vehicles used for personal use such as recreational vehicles which would otherwise meet the definition of a commercial motor vehicle.

 

Hey Brit, you really need to read the part that says "vehicles used for personal use such as recreational vehicles". An RV used for racing, where any profit is made, is a commercial vehicle and needs a DOT number along with all the joys of a commercial vehicle along with a driver that has a CDL, medical certification, log book, etc.

From what I located on the web in a 5 minute search, unless something about your participation in your sport has changed and based on that very cursory search (in other words, I could be wrong), it appears that you may very well need all of the above. Citations for no DOT number (No operating authority) and no log book can be fairly expensive and both are an enforcible "out of service" violation. Getting caught a second time without such items can lead to a violation for operating while under an OOS order and in some states that is not a citation, it is a ride. Either way it will be expensive.

 

 

BTW: I saw the pictures you posted....very nice truck.

 

Question 21: Does the exemption in §390.3(f)(3) for the "occasional transportation of personal property by individuals not for compensation nor in the furtherance of a commercial enterprise" apply to persons who occasionally use CMVs to transport cars, boats, horses, etc., to races, tournaments, shows or similar events, even if prize money is offered at these events?

 

Guidance: The exemption would apply to this kind of transportation, provided:

(1) .......

and,

(2) corporate sponsorship is not involved.

[bmzero]

I agree with everything you posted.

 

This is one of those cases where the law, although being executed properly, is overreaching *in my opinion*. Now, that being said, I obviously realize that my opinion is not at all valuable to any party involved, including any interested officers. However, that's the great thing about living in a country where laws are able to be changed. In my opinion, the law isn't there to fine me for carrying a 1500 lb. race car to an event a handful of times a year just because a sponsor gave me a set of seatbelts or the prize money was about 1/10 of the cost of diesel to get me there. That's what the performance industry is working to change, legally, through the proper channels, just as it was changed for overweight RV's.

 

Just so you know, I'm an "ex" (no such thing) Marine. I follow the law when possible. I'm not looking at ways to cheat the system, but more so interested in ways to legally exempt people in my hobby from laws created to govern commercial trucking companies.

[Big5er]

Confused now...what was changed for "overweight RV's"? Nothing has been changed for over weight vehicles unless your single state changed something (which I seriously doubt) but don't leave your state or drive on the Federal Interstate Highway system. Over weight is over weight, whether it is an rv, car or truck.

 

Good luck changing the FMCSR's to exempt HDT rv's. I am willing to bet money that effort will back fire. Once the fed's realize that we are driving the same trucks with nowhere near the same regulation, I bet we get included, not excluded. Government usually tends to add regulation, rather than the opposite. I applaud your efforts but until then, in my opinion, you are "all in" on the federal regs. A DOT number is cheaper than the ticket, but the hours of service regulations are what you racers disagree with the most because they usually don't fit your "schedule".

 

In my "opinion", traveling RV'ers using HDT's lean toward safety. They went large for safety and a good number of them are (or have been) full timers. They move less frequently and drive fewer hours than vacationing RV'ers. Racers on the other hand went to HDT's because a smaller truck won't pull their desired weight. While they may only travel on the weekends, they tend to cover great distances in order to work their week day job and haul ass to the track two or more states away. When the race is over, after spending the whole day at the track, will return home driving all night to get there. They routinely violator the hours of service that commercial drivers are not allowed to. There have been several fatal accidents involving HDT racers. The numbers are small now but as the number of HDT racers and RV'er increase so will our exposure.

 

And just so you know, I'm just a local DOT officer that puts racers out of service on a regular basis. Needless to say they hate me at Royal Purple raceway.

 

Not having the required DOT registration, IS cheating the system. Not following the Hours of Service requirements, on a regular basis (as alot of racers I see do) is not only cheating the system but endangers your family and mine.

[bmzero]

Apparently this is going to turn in to a racing discussion. I apologize to anyone reading this who is uninterested. I realize this is not the forum where this should be discussed.

 

The legislation to which I was referring is regarding larger RV's (some based on HDT chassis) exceeding 26,000 lbs. I'm definitely not an expert on the topic, but from what I have learned, any vehicle (combined or otherwise) exceeding 26,000 lbs. was once required to be a commercial vehicle in most states, and in some states that may still be true. Show Hauler RV's often times exceed 56k with the truck alone, according to Lonnie.

All of the things you stated about racers and driving habits may be true of some, but that would be true regardless of the racer taking money for their hobby. That's what I'm specifically questioning, the money exchange. From a pure safety standpoint, I don't see it being different from any other hobby that groups together on the weekend. You'll always have people rushing out the door after work to attend a far off rock concert, family outing, etc. Some of those will be driving large RV's and all too often, they don't drive those RV's enough to be comfortable and experienced, as compared to the racing industry.

Safety is a huge concern on the highway, but being someone who enjoys racing doesn't singlehandedly make you guilty of being an unsafe driver more so than any other hobby. Maybe even the opposite when you factor in reaction times, ability to focus on the driving task, calm under pressure, etc.

My point is this, if today I decided to never take another dime from racing, would that make me a safer driver? No, it definitely would not, but in the eyes of the law that excludes me from every commercial vehicle requirement. Big5er, you're in a position of law enforcement and you should absolutely enforce the law you have sworn to uphold. I would just like the law to be applied correctly within the racing scenario. It might make sense that the motorsports exemption, for safety reasons, had to keep a log book and log appropriate hours, but be exempt from weigh stations. I'm not suggesting the changes needed at this point and I'm not suggesting that we be exempt from reasonable restrictions. I just want to bring light to the absurdity of winning $50 at an event forcing you into being a commercial business for the rest of the year.

I would like to hear someone, maybe you Big5er, comment on the scenario of a golf hobbyist winning a tournament that paid out a small amount of money. Should he then need to adhere to commercial regulations anytime he hauled his golf clubs around? Or how about a hobby fisherman? They, quite often, win money at tournaments.

 

Big5er, here are the results (http://www.usafishingtrails.com/Results_YTD/2014/2014PTTSamRayburnOpen.pdf) from the Platinum Team Trail fishing event held at Sam Rayburn lake in Texas a couple of weeks ago. I'm curious, do you guys police those participants for DOT infringement equally to how you police the racers at Royal Purple Raceway? If yes, that's good to hear. If not, would you mind explaining why?

 

The above fishing tournament results information was taken from here - http://www.usafishingtrails.com/PlatinumTeamTrail/Schedule/.

[Big5er]

Why is that always the argument? "What about those guys"? An F150 pulling a fishing boat doesn't fit the definition of a CMV, Neither did my Ford Excursion and my bumper pull trailer. And neither would a golfer in his smart car/Toyota Corolla/Buick Regal. A business man driving to work isn't a commercial driver either. Your wife going to the grocery store isn't commercial either. We can go on and on with ridiculous scenario's but that will not change what YOU are driving and HOW you are using it. The way you intend to use your HDT puts you into the commercial regs. The way "most" of us here use ours does not.

 

There has been no law change regarding HDT motorhomes. many states still require HDT RV's to be registered as commercial. Texas never has.

You obviously didn't bother to read my last post completely. I fully expect, in the near future that our HDT RV's will be included in more regulation. Will they add us into the Federal Commercial regs? No,not if we are not commercial, but I expect more and more states to require different licensing, more in line with the CDL regs and possibly more. I also explained what, in my opinion, makes racers unsafe and I never mentioned money. It is the way that a lot of racers use their HDT that differs from RV'ers. Obviously you chose to ignore that also.

 

I am sorry that you feel it is unfair to make people that use their really large RV for something other than RV'ing follow the regs that apply to them. I can't help you there. Since there is no "one law" that will cover any changes that you want, you will need to change the laws in every state. Good luck with that.

[bmzero]

An F150 pulling a fishing boat doesn't fit the definition of a CMV, Neither did my Ford Excursion and my bumper pull trailer.

 

http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/regulations/title49/section/390.5

Excerpt:
Commercial motor vehicle means any self-propelled or towed motor vehicle used on a highway in interstate commerce to transport passengers or property when the vehicle—
(1) Has a gross vehicle weight rating or gross combination weight rating, or gross vehicle weight or gross combination weight, of 4,536 kg (10,001 pounds) or more, whichever is greater;

The most popular light duty truck on the road is the F150.

F150 GCWR - ranges up to 7500#

Average bass boats - range from 2500 to 3000#

 

If I have misunderstood something here, please let me know. That's very possible.

 

I also noticed that the GVWR on a diesel Ford Excursion is 9200#. That only leaves 800# for anyone towing a bass boat that has taken money during a tournament.

 

I don't recall bringing up a golfer in a Smart car. My scenario was directed at a RV'er who played in a golf tournament and won money. Again, semantics, but it does mirror my specific situation. If I was carrying golf clubs instead of a race car in my toy hauler, would it be OK for me to bypass commercial regs in your eyes? I noticed you didn't touch on this topic in your last reply. Since we're obviously going to carry on with conversation much longer than anyone wants, I would like to hear your opinion on this topic.

 

Again, I am not claiming to be an expert on any of these topics. I have tried to cite my sources when possible, but it's very possible that I could be completely off base. The way the laws are written seem to contradict themselves in many ways.

[Alie&Jim's Carrilite]

My 2 cents here. Back in my boating days, we raced as a factory supported race team in the offshore APBA division. We either drove a MDT or pickup truck that had sponsorship plastered all over it, Yes we were a commercial team and acted as such. But when a weekend came around where there was a charity poker run, and the boat was in runnable condition, we would hook up to my dually (private normal pickup) and head off for a fun day or 2. Same crew, same boat, no winning $$ involved, but that wasn't considered commercial, even though the boat had its decals everywhere.

[Big5er]

Exactly right Jim. It isn't what it IS it is what it is DOING. That is how Jeff manages to haul his RV with the same truck he uses for work.

 

RickW told me the other day that I must enjoy ramming my head into brick walls because all he saw on the forum were imprints of my face on the walls. I'm sorry if you can't figure out the difference between hauling your golf clubs in your RV and using an HDT to tow your race car/ATV. Can you fly to a golf tournament with your golfs checked in baggage? Must not be "using" that RV to haul them then. It must just be sleeping quarters with your stuff along for the ride. Can you do that with your ATV's? One is being used primarily for sleeping, one is being used primarily to transporting atv's. As for your fishing guys, could you please show me where they are from (big difference in weight between interstate commerce and intrastate) and a list of sponsors. You may very well be right, but what is the visual difference between a fisherman going to the lake for the weekend and one of these guys? You could spend all day looking at Billy Bob taking the kids fishing for all I know. Plus, a pickup and boat as light as you listed still wouldn't require a CDL. On the other hand, you and your HDT pulling a car hauler are a large neon sign and there is no doubt that you are over the weight requirement for both interstate or intrastate commerce. I don't work near Sam Rayburn, I do work within miles of a race track. I have golf tournaments here, golfers in the RV's aren't commercial. I might have a fishing tournament in my area, but I can't recall seeing a fishing boat pulled by a truck plastered with decals. There's a lot of thing I don't know. I have never seen a snowblower so I can't tell you anything about one of those either, but I do know that an HDT being used to haul cars/atv/boats to the race is probably commercial. Is the guy in his pickup truck doing the same or is he just the guy going out to play on the weekend? Well, when he starts looking commercial, I will stop him and ask.

 

When I stop that fishing boat covered in sponsor logos I will do the same research as I did to see what you are doing and I'll let you know what I decide. But this is an RV forum. What you are going to do with your HDT isn't RV'ing. These people take the kids to the woods and/or tow their homes around. Some of them work from the RV's on the internet and some work in campgrounds. They aren't commercial either. Their RV's are where they LIVE, and are not necessary for their work.

 

To answer your very first post in this thread: YES, getting a CDL will be a very good idea. You will need a log book and a medical card too. And contrary to the RV'ers here, you will need to go through the scale houses. You can argue "but it is a motorhome" all day long (I hear it all the time) but in the end, a motorhome/rv being used commercially is still a commercial motor vehicle.

This topic has been hashed, rehashed and more. If you want a debate, join a club. If you really want info, send me a message but it sounds to me like you already knew the answer.

[bmzero]

First off, I want to sincerely thank you for taking the time to stay in this conversation. I do realize that the tone of the thread degraded pretty quickly, but that wasn't my intention at all. I genuinely want to comply with the law, but I don't want to be anymore commercial than I need to be and I'm just trying to figure out what that means. It's great to hear the views of a DOT officer on a forum and not on the side of the interstate. I really do appreciate your feedback.

 

The last two posts have helped in my understanding quite a bit, but here's the part that I don't like. It's still up to the officer whether I'm commercial or not. I don't like that they are in that situation anymore than myself being in that situation. I think the laws should be more clear and provide some shelter for the recreational racer. Again, my opinion doesn't really matter, though.

 

By the way, I pull a Keystone Raptor, which I wouldn't classify as a car hauler. I don't run any commercial logos on the trailer whatsoever.

 

 

My HDT is a long term play. Racing is not. My plan is to be a full-timer as soon as I can and racing is not part of that plan.

[bmzero]

What about this plan:

• Register the HDT as a RV
• Get a CDL
• When racing, keep all necessary commercial regs (log book, service hours, weigh stations, etc.)
• When not racing, travel as RV following no commercial regs

That would comply, right? Are there any gray areas with that plan?

[dvision]

Iowa has a new law that classifies what bmzero and I are doing as motorsports RV. It gives us RV status without needing a cdl(even though I have a class A for work), exempts us from weigh stations, and have an overall length limit of 85'. They finally realized those of us competing in motorsports are not commercial. I cannot remember the house file # but can get it. We must comply with weight laws. It also says we can have sponsor advertising on our rigs. The biggest thing they address in several places is if you are caught using the rig for commercial purposes they will go back and charge you at the commercial rate for your license plates. It is higher priced than RV plates at $400 per year but is certainly much more reasonable than commercial plates. They also address that we can receive prize money. Its nice to be legal.

[Star Dreamer]

Hmmm, we may may have to consider moving 1 hour south to cross the border into Iowa so we can go back to showing for awards. maybe more states will follow suit. I would definitely what that law printed out and on file in the truck.

Dave

[bmzero]

Iowa has a new law that classifies what bmzero and I are doing as motorsports RV. It gives us RV status without needing a cdl(even though I have a class A for work), exempts us from weigh stations, and have an overall length limit of 85'. They finally realized those of us competing in motorsports are not commercial. I cannot remember the house file # but can get it. We must comply with weight laws. It also says we can have sponsor advertising on our rigs. The biggest thing they address in several places is if you are caught using the rig for commercial purposes they will go back and charge you at the commercial rate for your license plates. It is higher priced than RV plates at $400 per year but is certainly much more reasonable than commercial plates. They also address that we can receive prize money. Its nice to be legal.

 

That's the best news I have heard on this issue in years. That is EXACTLY what I think should happen in every state. I really appreciate you posting this.

 

Here's some more info - https://www.govtrack.us/states/ia/bills/85/hf2447

[dvision]

That is it. I cannot believe my home state was first to do this and it makes so much sense. Maybe you can forward this to your local senator and get this going in your state.

[bmzero]

That is it. I cannot believe my home state was first to do this and it makes so much sense. Maybe you can forward this to your local senator and get this going in your state.

I did that within about 10 minutes of seeing your post. I'm hopeful something could happen, eventually.

[GoldRush]

It doesn't surprise me that they did this. Knoxville Raceway is the home of the biggest sprint car race in the world and is the home of the Sprint Car Hall of Fame!