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phoenix2013

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Just now, GeorgiaHybrid said:

Looks like a simple 4 bolt retrofit if you reverse the sides the plate is on and place the bumper at the rear of the hitch.

Dave, take a closer look, not exactly. It started almost that simple but as you know engineering is a female and she can be a bitch. I'll show you the "evolution' in the morning.

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Henry,

I can see where you cut the side wall back and added the gussets to stiffen the side cutout and bottom plate but would have thought placing them to the rear and extending it outboard of the rear plate, you could drill and bolt the stop limiter plate to the rear cross plate.

That would make for a fairly simple retrofit for existing hitches. We can discuss it a little more at the ECR and see what we can come up with.

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21 hours ago, GeorgiaHybrid said:

Henry,...........................................That would make for a fairly simple retrofit for existing hitches. We can discuss it a little more at the ECR and see what we can come up with.

My sentiments exactly, I absolutely hate to make improvements that cannot be incorporated into existing products. It really pisses off the customers who just bought it "before the improvement". Therefore I designed exactly what you suggest.

et%20install%202_zpshljnr6gt.jpg

 

Not only I designed it, but I built couple of these and we "retrofitted" an ET with these at the October National Rally. Marc Jones has a "floater" DRV and he volunteered his rig as a test bed (I really appreciate it). Since then Marc has pulled substantial number of miles with this arrangement and reported a significant improvement in the way way the rig behaves (camera footage shows it). However, Marc and couple of other folks have noticed an adverse behavior that none of us likes. Remember, the force going down is several thousand pounds, some of it is dissipated (before the "return trip") but it's still thousands of pounds in the upper direction. That force meets the shock absorbents at the back end of the sled. The upper motion of the sled is reduced, but there is nothing in the front of the sled to restrict it, therefore the sled teeters on the airbags (front wants to keep going up). At this point, the parallelogram arrangement in the hitch takes over  and keeps the sled flat but that's a lot of "abuse" on the upper and lower shafts in the dogbones attached to the front of the sled.

As I said, engineering is a bitch, back to the drawing board looking for a better solution.

The original head positioning on the sled was designed as follows: The fifth's hitch pin when locked into an ET is in an exact center of the four airbags or the single large airbag in the Super Seniors. The pivot points on the Binkley heads are also directly in line with the pin therefore as the head articulates forward and back the pressure downward remains centered on the bags. If you look carefully at the (square) Super Binkley you may notice that the pivot points are not centered, they are slightly back. But that only because of the internal design of that head, in actuality the pivots are in line with the center of the pin and the pin is in the center of the air bags. The down force as the hitch works is equally distributed between the four air bags or one single one.

Hmmmm...... To my logical mind a thought occurred, if the shock absorbers were placed in the center of the force going down, the return force going up should be dissipated without putting undue stress on the rear shafts. 

As I said before, engineering is a bitch, where there was an adequate room to do it in the rear of the sled, there was absolutely no room to do it in the center of the sled with the current sled design, hence this. Sorry...................

10021917-04%20sled%20assy_bump%201_zpspk 

I am building couple of these and one will be going to Marc who will swap out his original sled with this one and do some runs to see how well the "theory" works. What do they say in engineering, "one test is worth thousand of opinions".

OK, moving on.

mid%20clearance%20old%20binkley_zpsg9zqo

 

Marc has a regular Binkley head in his ET. It's good to have a CAD program where you can do motion because you can study on the screen what happens when you MOVE THINGS AROUND. I tilted the head and I can see "no problem" (not that you would want to have your fifth in a position that requires that much tilt - in a ditch perhaps).

So the next step was? Let's install (virtually) the Super Binkley on that (virtual) ET and do the same thing.

mid%20clearance%203_zps5angpwxx.jpg

SON OF A B...................................... didn't I say that engineering is a bi.............................     The shaft retention scheme on the Super Binkley wants to occupy the same space as the shock absorber mounting plate. The shock absorbers are already as close to the hitch sidewalls as possible, back to the drawing board.3-9-17%20mid%203_zpsz0gsxf8r.jpg

That's why I was quizzing you if you noticed something different between this Super Binkley and yours. Now the shafts will be spot welded to a thin retention plate which in turn will be screwed into heads perimeter walls.

Phew................................. that's enough for tonight.  

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I am sure the dog bones feel absolutely rigid side to side but rather than let them absorb any of that, would a block of UHMW or Delrin between the side rails and the sled sides have any benefit?

Too bad about the retro-fit clause, I applaud that you do it but at the same time it is at the cost of optimal solutions... sometimes. At the very least having the same end results available for a retrofit is the right thing to do.

That said, if you milled an aperture in the side C-rails centered on the sides of the sled and bolted an angle to each side of the sled with a leg sticking through the apertures you would have a nice place to put the urethane shock bumper.

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Both ideas are absolutely spot on. Couple of engineering mantras, "to every engineering problem there are multiple solutions" and "engineering minds often operate on the same wavelength" (you have just proven the second one).

Above are design drawings and I didn't want to clutter these with everything that's in the hitch, but look at an actual ET.

ET%20Gen%202_zpsp2qj352b.jpg

I incorporated what I call "glide strips" between the side walls and the sled from the very first ET ever built (my prototype). Originally they were teflon, but eventually I "discovered" UHMW and that's what is in there now.

The dogbones are indeed very rigid and the tubing I use is not the common schedule 40 or 80 stuff, these are precise DOM seamless tubes. But it occurred to me that side to side retention of the sled would be critical, particularly that in this arrangement it's independently suspended without any solid connection to the front anchoring points in the hitch, unlike the common arrangement in other hitches.

I actually "observed" and filmed the action of the hitch, by riding in the back of my buddy's HDT with a camera (no, I'm not completely nuts we did it it in a campground) and I was amazed to see how much "give" there was in the dogbones when going around the corners, that's when the glide strips really come into play. And the same is true for every other hitch on the market including the front anchored ones. They all could use side retention, that's why they get "loose as a goose" on the front shaft with age.

You second solution, milling the sidewalls and "moving the action" into an area where there more adequate space is very elegant. But as you "deduced" I always keep an eye on the subsequent stage beyond design, manufacturing and then the ultimate, the cost. If I can get away with simple (and also off the shelf) that to me is a winner and "elegant".

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Thanks for the clarification, it is easy to see why this is the "Gold Standard(tm)" in hitches.

I worked for a crazy Brit engineer for many years designing medical devices, his mantra for me was "don't make things foolproof, make them bloody fool proof!" Notice an intended separation in the last category. No shortage of bloody fools no matter how well intended (technicians, administrators) or educated (surgeons) they are. We never injured anyone, we were never sued.... but colonoscopies may injure your pride :blink: :lol:

 

 

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MsChrissi, isn't it curious how we remember the folks who gave us the "first chops", opportunity and inoculated in us the first bits of "wisdom". I'm pretty good, but I'll be first to admit that I got that way by a lifetime of osmosis and affiliation with people who were smarter than me and more experienced than me.

I don't have an MIT education, far from it, but MIT people played a big part in my life.

After five years as a workabee at Raytheon I ended up at Analogic and got exposed to Bernie Gordon (look up Analogic history). Bernie used to say, "I was on the PhD track at MIT until I realized that this degree would compel me to sit on my ass in an ivory tower, so I quit and started this company".

Then I ended at Instrumentation Laboratory in an R&D department, three PhDs were running the department, two of them were on my project

Next company I worked for was started by three MIT types, graduate, Masters and PhD. I reported to the graduate (VP of Engineering). His first job after MIT was designing control valves in the first sea going nuclear reactor (Nautilus sub) under the legendary Admiral Rickover. He proudly told me "they retired the sucker and my valves still worked"

Next I started a company with an MIT PhD, the product we designed had 7 patents and is still on the market 25 years later.

After a stint at Lockheed I went back to small companies, once a small company spirit gets in your blood (no BS, no politics, intellectual freedom) it's tough to give it up.

So the next outfit had a President with Masters from MIT and a MIT PhD as consultant and stock holder. We got bunch of outstanding (patented) products on the market from there.

You mentioned "gold standard", everyone of these folks demanded and operated under auspices that if it's not a gold standard or a world beater it's not worth doing.

I'm not going to BS anybody on this forum that I consider myself in the same class as these people, but I can say for myself "I was able to keep up with them, had a hell of time and couldn't wait to get to work every day of my professional life". And the work ethic I got from them is still with me, preventing me from "retirement".

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When I started in the early days of Silicon Valley I do not recall many of my friends ever having degrees; everybody was young, had some education but no degree and we all dove in and wanted to get into the fight so to speak. Education was something you got on the side as you needed it for a project or down the road or you just hired the person who had the smarts you needed to get the job on rails. It was all frantic paced, 12 months time cycle from trade show to trade show you had to have the wow ready to devastate the competition and show the doctors you knew better than they did what they needed. We typically overpaid and overworked our R&D staff, gave them all the toys they could want, we were all slaves and it would have been hard to leave and go somewhere else because there was no place that offered what we did in challenges. Everybody generated patents which all would get assigned to our Japanese overlords and we'd get compensated 1000 yen ($1) Hard to compete with starting young and hungry, succeeding on your own initiative and accomplishments and a lifetime of interesting and varied projects. I'll take that over any polyester dinosaur that does it this way because it is the proven way. I hired a young kid once not because of his education, in fact I don't think I ever looked at his resume once I found out he had designed an airplane, built the airplane and flew the airplane, a real plane. Hired him on the spot on that alone. Imagination, initiative, motivation and guts. He became a rock star of an engineer and did fantastic things for the company.

rant/

It's all gone to hell today with kids accepting a virtual experience and the mind suck that is "smart phones".

/rant

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5 minutes ago, rickeieio said:

Henry,

  And the best part is, you're so willing to share.  Thank you.

This was also what these people inoculated me with, the responsibility to share and helping the next generation of engineers, leaders , technicians, etc.

When I worked for Bernie Gordon (as an engineering tech), he used to run free classes for his technicians. Here he was, an intellectual titan, multimillionaire, President of the company talking to bunch of lowly techs. The result, he had the smartest bunch of techs I ever worked with.

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MsChrissi, my intellectual education was "interrupted" by migration (legally) from a communist "paradise" and having zero English skills arriving on these shores.

I can proudly state that in addition to legal immigration I assimilated to the US culture very well, thank you very much.

The result of that was that I entered the high tech world as a "lowly technician" before pursuing a degree. Those few years on the bench were invaluable as hands on and the theoretical knowledge I gained later made a lot more sense and gave me a full appreciation of its value.  

I also saw exactly what you describe at Instrumentation Laboratories. The R&D division was managed by a PhD, the other two PhDs were actually sales people, we were selling (and designing) scientific instrumentation used by other PhDs, hence the high powered sales team. But here's the other good part, out of the half a dozen projects (including mine) half the chief design engineers were not graduates and I have never seen guys as clever and resourceful as they. The one I worked for told me on the first day, "often I don't know what I'm doing but then I figure it out", OK, but after a while I knew what he meant. Talking about a world beater "gold standard" products. You'll get a kick out of this one.

We were designing an instrument that needed to reach and hold Centigrade temperatures of  hundred, several hundreds, thousand plus and then spike to over three thousand degrees (remember, Centigrade). We needed a way to measure those degrees, directly. He came out with an idea of a piece of tungsten wire in contact with the pure carbon heating vessel holding the sample in an inert atmosphere. He just had an idea, not much beyond it. So he said, "that's what we have these PhDs for" and he tasked one of them, a young bright lady, with researching for him (it was 1973 before Google) the resistive characteristics of various tungstens under low and elevated  temperatures. She gave him  a very comprehensive data and that's all he needed. 22 months later the instrument went to the show and we "killed the competition".

The other "non-degreed" engineer was working on the same product, next generation, that one used plasma and could spike to 10,000 degrees C

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On March 9, 2017 at 9:38 PM, GeorgiaHybrid said:

Looks like a simple 4 bolt retrofit if you reverse the sides the plate is on and place the bumper at the rear of the hitch.

 

Sounds like my Comfort Ride hitch! I have the 30k CRH and it uses up to 9 bump stops that I can add or remove depending on my pin weight or the road conditions, and it came with a extension handle. No chunking here.  

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w/12 speed automatic 3:05 diffs

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13 hours ago, Heavymetal said:

 

Sounds like my Comfort Ride hitch! I have the 30k CRH and it uses up to 9 bump stops that I can add or remove depending on my pin weight or the road conditions, and it came with a extension handle. No chunking here.  

Air ride hitch technology and air cell technology will both be discussed at the ECR. This will not be one hitch vs another hitch but the advantages.  Should be interesting discussion.

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1 hour ago, SuiteSuccess said:

Air ride hitch technology and air cell technology will both be discussed at the ECR. This will not be one hitch vs another hitch but the advantages.  Should be interesting discussion.

I think they both have there pros and cons and they both do a good job in helping to maintain the health of our rigs. When we all decide to upgrade to our HDT's I think it is a must have to insure the RV is not shaken and bounced to pieces. 

2016 Western Star 5700xe (Pathfinder) DD15 555hp

w/12 speed automatic 3:05 diffs

2005 Newmar Mountain Aire 38RLPK

2 Great Danes

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On 3/13/2017 at 0:20 AM, MsChrissi said:

Cool stuff, now we all get to work on our own projects!

Went by Port St. Lucie airport, got excited again (after 25 years).

EAA%20908_1_zpsipf7qvvy.jpg

EAA%20908_2_zpstt6arqgy.jpg

Talked to some members, nice small chapter, 60 something members, not so many builders mostly aircraft owners, one apparently well healed, owns or has owned a Russian MIG. 

EAA%20908_3_zps3b3vkklp.jpg

Tie down field and the row of hangars, one hangar is used by members for annuals, service, etc. Might rejoin the organization, can you get your own number back, mine was 55,125, also got a "brick" in the museum with that number.

How is your enterprise going? What is you website? Wife and I  were talking about the EAA again this morning, she was "excited" (again) about going to the Rally so finally we might make it to Lakeland.

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On March 12, 2017 at 10:49 AM, phoenix2013 said:

MsChrissi, isn't it curious how we remember the folks who gave us the "first chops", opportunity and inoculated in us the first bits of "wisdom". I'm pretty good, but I'll be first to admit that I got that way by a lifetime of osmosis and affiliation with people who were smarter than me and more experienced than me.

I don't have an MIT education, far from it, but MIT people played a big part in my life.

After five years as a workabee at Raytheon I ended up at Analogic and got exposed to Bernie Gordon (look up Analogic history). Bernie used to say, "I was on the PhD track at MIT until I realized that this degree would compel me to sit on my ass in an ivory tower, so I quit and started this company".

Then I ended at Instrumentation Laboratory in an R&D department, three PhDs were running the department, two of them were on my project

Next company I worked for was started by three MIT types, graduate, Masters and PhD. I reported to the graduate (VP of Engineering). His first job after MIT was designing control valves in the first sea going nuclear reactor (Nautilus sub) under the legendary Admiral Rickover. He proudly told me "they retired the sucker and my valves still worked"

Next I started a company with an MIT PhD, the product we designed had 7 patents and is still on the market 25 years later.

After a stint at Lockheed I went back to small companies, once a small company spirit gets in your blood (no BS, no politics, intellectual freedom) it's tough to give it up.

So the next outfit had a President with Masters from MIT and a MIT PhD as consultant and stock holder. We got bunch of outstanding (patented) products on the market from there.

You mentioned "gold standard", everyone of these folks demanded and operated under auspices that if it's not a gold standard or a world beater it's not worth doing.

I'm not going to BS anybody on this forum that I consider myself in the same class as these people, but I can say for myself "I was able to keep up with them, had a hell of time and couldn't wait to get to work every day of my professional life". And the work ethic I got from them is still with me, preventing me from "retirement".

I graduated from MIT.

Murray's Institute of Tools.B)

John

Southern Nevada

2008 Volvo 780, D13, I-Shift

2017 Keystone Fuzion 420 Toyhauler 

2017 Can-Am Maverick X3-RS

 

ALAKAZARCACODEFLGAHIIDILINIAKSKYLAMAMNMS
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34 minutes ago, VegasFlyer said:

I graduated from MIT.

Murray's Institute of Tools.B)

I would assume you have the "Brass Rat" commemorative ring.  It was amazing to observe the interaction when one of my MIT colleagues in a casual conversation or a meeting spot the beaver ring on someone else's finger:

"Oh, what year did you graduate"?

"Really"

"Remember Professor so & so"?

And on and on it would go, you guys have quite a fraternity.

My first exposure to you guys was under Bernie Gordon https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=Bernie+Gordon&* He was quite a terror to engineers working for him and used to hire MIT grads just to complain to MIT that they "lowered their academic standards"

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21 hours ago, phoenix2013 said:

How is your enterprise going? What is you website? Wife and I  were talking about the EAA again this morning, she was "excited" (again) about going to the Rally so finally we might make it to Lakeland.

Airplane parts business is painfully slow these days, not many new builders. This new generation is only interested in instant gratification and or virtual experiences. Can't tell you how many people I have met that think they are a pilot because they can fly a simm. Our local FBO on the other hand is cranking out new pilots so they are coming from somewhere but most are on a track to ATP. The majority of new experimental aviation builders are building some model of Van's RV line of prepunched quick build aircraft. There is nothing wrong with these planes but the "experimental" pushed by the EAA these days is your choice of interior fabrics and accent stripes.

Our business is all based on the hardware that goes into Burt Rutan's composite canard aircraft designs and some of the derivative offshoots. These planes can be built by a dedicated builder in four years but typically longer. There are maybe 10% as many new builders today than there were 16 years ago, Even so, experimental aviation is alive and well and there are a lot of dedicated people out there, great crowd!

If you make it to Lakeland drop by the Workshops area and you will find me in the Engines Workshop and Randi in the Composites Workshop, we're the co-chairs for the Engines Workshop. Otherwise wandering around the camping area our space is already roped off on Poberezney Ave, kind of hard to miss the little red truck.

 

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