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Another Florida License Question


DIESELSUBMARINER

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OK Guys,

 

this might have been answered somewhere before, but i am still confused.

I spoke with the DMV and got the following answer in regards to license requirement for an HDT Truck:

If your Truck is less than 26001 actual or declared Gross vehicle weight, you can drive it with a standard class E license...

But here comes in the wired part i been told : if your Truck is over 8000 lbs than the 26001 is the max Combined Vehicle weight..

That would mean, if a HDT is already say 20.000 lbs, i can only pull 6000 ??

I asked and the lady quoted some hidden rule.. so i said that any 1 ton truck is already over 8000 and most can tow up to 22000lbs ... so she said legally you need a CDL...

?

Does anybody know for sure ?

 

 

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I believe the Fed "standardized" the need for CDLs years ago. 26,0001 pounds makes a truck a Class 7 HDT (33,001+ pounds = Class 8 HDT). That said, SOME states have recognized the "regular" folks are now driving heavy RVs and, have facilitated those regular folks by offering a special non-CDL endorsement (NY now has an "R" endorsement). For the states offering this option,I believe you have to pass a road test on the HDT in question. You're also likely to need an endorsement for Air Brakes. Some states will register what ordinarilly would be an HDT as either an RV or, a "Private Truck". Since rules vary by state, YOU need to do you due dillegence for the state you want to issue the special license & registration. Thr HDT Resource Guide has some information which might be of use BUT, the ultimate responsibility resides with you.

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Well, in the State of Florida, a Vehicle with a fifth wheel hitch can not be registered as a RV, therefore, my Truck will be a Private Truck. I know years ago, you had to have a class D license over 8000lbs. this license does not longer exist.

Also florida does not have and stipulations/ endorsements for Air brakes.

The main confusion is the total weight.. since the truck will weigh in at just under 22K gross declared weight, is the 26001 limit for just the truck or is it combined weight ?

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  • 2 weeks later...

I don't know the answer to your question but being a CDL holder for the past 33 yrs, Fl DMV is not very smart. A CDL holder has to have a DOT physical every 2 years and the has to be in the DMV computer or they will suspend your DL. Now why would they want the operator of a HDT that is not for hire to have a CDL? That's just stupid! I would tag it as a private truck and just make sure you put "Not For Hire" on the sides of the truck.

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Pepsi-Co is a "Not for Hire" carrier, but they are still a commercial operation.

You as a CDL driver should be aware that our HDT's are CMV's that when used as we use them are exempt from the fed regs. Obviously Florida chose not to exempt them from having a higher class of dl, if what you say is true. And it isn't the DMV that made the law. They only enforce the laws made by the state legislature. Talk to them if you think it is so "stupid".

MY PEOPLE SKILLS ARE JUST FINE.
~It's my tolerance to idiots that needs work.~

2005 Volvo 780 VED12 465hp / Freedomline transmission
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2018 customed Mobile Suites 40KSSB3 

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State regs for DL's are all over the map....some use GVW and some use GVWR and I suspect that the legislators may not know the difference. Asking someone in your local DMV office may not be much help. I would recommend thay you do your own research.... look up your states code, copy it and be prepared to explain/discuss it with the cleck/supervisor at your local DMV. I had to jump through several hoops to get my Volvo 780 registered as a motor home in SC, more hoops to get my Class F license and even more hoops to keep the truck at my home. It was a frustrating experience but it helped me hone my patience and people skills. Don't give up if the code supports your position but you may need to know when to quit with some people and talk to others. Just mu .02 from my experiences. Good luck and be safe., Charlie

Don't ever tell a soldier that he doesn't understand the cost of war.

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Not much help in answering your question, but you may have to compare multiple places to come up with an answer. For example, in Tennessee where I live, the state licensing site says any vehicle with a GVWR greater than 26001 lbs. requires a Class A, B ,or C license but doesn't say what those are. You go to Commercial Driver's License site and find out that Class A,B,C are CDLs. Exceptions are not defined. So I'm screwed right? Well no, going to the state CDL manual and you find that RVs are an exception to the requirement for a CDL. So three different places for one answer. Absurd! I copied the pertinent info in all three sites and its in my binder in the truck.

2006 Volvo 780 "Hoss" Volvo D12, 465hp, 1650 ft/lbs tq., ultrashift

Bed Build by "JW Morgan's Custom Welding"

2017 DRV 39DBRS3

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Well, in the State of Florida, a Vehicle with a fifth wheel hitch can not be registered as a RV, therefore, my Truck will be a Private Truck.

 

If you get it registered as a private truck, please PM me the name of the insurance company that will cover it as a private truck. Part of my reason for asking is because I have not totally given up on buying an HDT and registering it in Fla.

 

I went thru this mess last year. Had the truck lined up, had the cashier's check ready to be mailed, had the truck inspection set, but my agent could NOT find a Fla insurance carrier that would cover the truck as a "private truck". I considered changing my domicile state to SD, but decided that was a bit too extreme.

 

FYI, there is a family in my town that recently got a truck from RV Haulers. It is registered as an RV (did not have the fifthwheel hitch attached when they went to the DMV). They're taking their chances. I just wonder what the fine is for towing a 5er with a truck that is registered as an RV. Must be some special/different wording in the Fla statues, because I couldn't find anything searching the database using common words. Of course, the chances of getting caught are not good. Cops just aren't looking for people who break those mundane laws when speeders and reckless drivers are so much easier to spot.

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Well, in the State of Florida, a Vehicle with a fifth wheel hitch can not be registered as a RV

 

I have a Freightliner c120 w/single axle titled in Fla. as a motorhome (MH) since 2010. My Fla. drivers license is a class C (up to 26001 or any RV). I had to sign an affidavit stating that the truck was a motorhome. Has a 5th wheel hitch. National Interstate insured the truck only, since I had not yet purchased my trailer. I went through the DMV in Crestview with no problems. I'v heard that some DMV offices are difficult to work with.

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Well, in the State of Florida, a Vehicle with a fifth wheel hitch can not be registered as a RV

I have a Freightliner c120 w/single axle titled in Fla. as a motorhome (MH) since 2010. My Fla. drivers license is a class C (up to 26001 or any RV). I had to sign an affidavit stating that the truck was a motorhome. Has a 5th wheel hitch. National Interstate insured the truck only, since I had not yet purchased my trailer. I went through the DMV in Crestview with no problems. I'v heard that some DMV offices are difficult to work with.

 

You might want to double check your registration. Florida is very specific in saying than an HDT with a fifth wheel hitch can NOT be registered as an RV.

 

Check out their form TL-13. It is very easy to understand and even has pictures on page 7 or 8.

In other words, these heavy truck conversions may have a connecting device on the back of the vehicle to tow a vehicle, boat trailer, etc., however, they may not have a fifth-wheel connecting device.

 

The make will be the make of the heavy truck. The VIN will be the VIN on the chassis. The year will be the year of the chassis. The vehicle type will be AU and the body type will be MH.

 

If you receive an application for truck conversion, the first question you ask should be, "Is there a fifth-wheel connecting device on this conversion?" If the answer is yes, the vehicle cannot be titled and/or registered as an RV.

 

Or this paragraph

 

2. Can a truck tractor be converted/changed to be titled and registered as a recreational vehicle?

 

NO. Truck-tractors as defined in 320.01(11), Florida Statutes, may not be converted to a recreational vehicle.

 

That seems rsther plan to me. If you signed an affidavit saying something other than that, you might want to check the back of that affidavit and see what the penalty is for falsifying information. In my state it would be a felony. That seems awfully steep just to avoid proper registration.

That will also negate your Class C (up to 26001 and any RV) drivers license since your vehicle is not an RV according to your own state.

MY PEOPLE SKILLS ARE JUST FINE.
~It's my tolerance to idiots that needs work.~

2005 Volvo 780 VED12 465hp / Freedomline transmission
singled mid position / Bed by Larry Herrin
2018 customed Mobile Suites 40KSSB3 

2014 smart Fortwo

 

 
 
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So I'm a newby here, first post. I have, however, searched for the solution to my problem on this site.

 

I am a Florida resident, non CDL license, but will get one if absolutely needed, with a contract to purchase an International Prostar tractor with tandem axels. I have also made a deal on an older Tennesee drop down trailer, partiality converted to a living quarter trailer. I need...er, want this combination so I can haul my 7,000 pound Jeep and my motorcycles with me, not something a light duty 5th wheel can do!

 

The problem I'm having is insurance, I can get it, but at the commercial rate, $8 to 10 thousand a year. Not gonna happen. I've called everyone and their brother and can't do any better. Miller, forget it can't help, although Lori suggest I should buy the truck and have an axel removed, BUT would not garrentee she could get insurance, let alone give me a price if she could. She was very indignant that I would not do this and scolded me for not listening to her. Great business model!

 

Suggestions, ideas.

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Well for folks that still think that the world is flat.........her we go ONCE again...... and the further we travel with this subject that faster we arrive back where we started so.......it sure seems like the world is indeed......round.....

 

Wonder how much Dr. Pepper this thread will consume..........

 

Drive on.........(CDL .....or......Dr Pepper???)

97 Freightshaker Century Cummins M11-370 / 1350 /10 spd / 3:08 /tandem/ 20ft Garage/ 30 ft Curtis Dune toybox with a removable horse-haul-module to transport Dolly-The-Painthorse to horse camps and trail heads all over the Western U S

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You might want to double check your registration. Florida is very specific in saying than an HDT with a fifth wheel hitch can NOT be registered as an RV.

 

Check out their form TL-13. It is very easy to understand and even has pictures on page 7 or 8.

In other words, these heavy truck conversions may have a connecting device on the back of the vehicle to tow a vehicle, boat trailer, etc., however, they may not have a fifth-wheel connecting device.

 

Here's a suggestion--check the definition of a fifth-wheel hitch. Most are defined not as a particular coupling mechanism, but as a hitch mounted directly over the rear axle. Mount it behind the rear axle and it isn't a fifth wheel hitch any more--inconsequential for most, though it opens the door for a safety chain requirement in some places.

 

A really quick search of FL statutes turned up the definition of a fifth-wheel trailer, but not a fifth-wheel hitch:

 

8. The “fifth-wheel trailer,” which is a vehicular unit mounted on wheels, designed to provide temporary living quarters for recreational, camping, or travel use, of such size or weight as not to require a special highway movement permit, of gross trailer area not to exceed 400 square feet in the setup mode, and designed to be towed by a motorized vehicle that contains a towing mechanism that is mounted above or forward of the tow vehicle’s rear axle.

 

So the key question might be is a hitch for towing an "fifth-wheel trailer" still a fifth-wheel hitch, if it's not mounted above or forward of the axle? If no, the questions on the application can be answered in favor of the desired registration.

45' 2004 Showhauler -- VNL300, ISX, FreedomLine -- RVnerds.com -- where I've started to write about what I'm up to

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Diesel,

 

Not to worry it's kinda a joke among the Dr. Pepper crowd please don't expect me to have any real answers since even the "officials" at one gvt office have VASTLY different answers from other "Officials" at different locations from the same state agency.

 

Now I suppose this IS the outlaw DNA that sorta runs in the family tree but.......... suppose........ you just put a ball hitch like RV uses on his fifth wheel trailer but it is NOT a fifth wheel hitch at all so you now have a ball hitch that simply takes the place of a fifth wheel plate hitch..........

 

It's called a LOOPHOLE and it's the way folks make government work.....

 

RV hangs out on the computer section of the forum and he LOVES his ball hitch for his fiver trailer and when you go to get registered you just pull the four bolts and toss the hitch in your drom box......

 

Everyone I have ever seen using the ball hitch loved it.......

 

Have some Dr Pepper and then just LOOPHOLE the DMV geeks......

 

Drive on..........(Have a ....ball)

97 Freightshaker Century Cummins M11-370 / 1350 /10 spd / 3:08 /tandem/ 20ft Garage/ 30 ft Curtis Dune toybox with a removable horse-haul-module to transport Dolly-The-Painthorse to horse camps and trail heads all over the Western U S

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So the key question might be is a hitch for towing an "fifth-wheel trailer" still a fifth-wheel hitch, if it's not mounted above or forward of the axle? If no, the questions on the application can be answered in favor of the desired registration.

Dave, my drom box is mounted on the frame rails at the "front" of my truck bed. It is "above" AND "forward" of my axle. If I moved it directly over the axle it would be only "above" and if I moved it to the back of the bed it would still be "above" the axle, wouldn't it? It is definitely not under it. It might be rearward but it would still be above it. And any hitch mounted on top of the frame rails is "above" the axle too, right? It's kinda like an oreo cookie. Doesn't matter which way you do it but if you lay it flat on the table one of the cookies is always above of the creme center :o .

Judging from the pictures on their form, I bet if you showed them a picture (like the one on that form) and said "it has a 5th wheel connecting device" their answer would be "no". Especially since that is plainly what the form says you may not have. It never mentions towing a fifth wheel trailer, it says you may not have the "fifth wheel connecting device". And it never mentions where you mount that device. Florida also doesn't mention a "fifth wheel trailer". They mention only "semi trailers". I disagree with their definition, but hey, it is theirs, not mine.

Their form addresses the situation this way:

Section 320.01 (5), Florida Statutes defines a semitrailer as any vehicle without motive power designed to be coupled to or drawn by a motor vehicle and constructed so that some part of its weight and that of its load rests upon or is carried by another vehicle.

 

Notice that the definition is specific in that “part of its weight and that of its load rests upon or is carried by another vehicle.”

You will find that same quote on page 6 and 8 of the Florida TL-13 form.

 

 

 

So the key question might be is a hitch for towing an "fifth-wheel trailer" still a fifth-wheel hitch, if it's not mounted above or forward of the axle? If no, the questions on the application can be answered in favor of the desired registration.

This one was kind of lame. You really had to grasp at some straws to come up with a way to disagree with me this time, didn't you? I certainly would not want to stand before a judge trying to convince him that I hadn't committed a felony when I signed the affidavit because I moved my "fifth wheel connecting device" rearward of my axle. And I'm betting that everyone here that is not trying to sneak past the Florida law would agree with me, except for you and Goldrush (or one of his alias id's).

MY PEOPLE SKILLS ARE JUST FINE.
~It's my tolerance to idiots that needs work.~

2005 Volvo 780 VED12 465hp / Freedomline transmission
singled mid position / Bed by Larry Herrin
2018 customed Mobile Suites 40KSSB3 

2014 smart Fortwo

 

 
 
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Big5er, I titled my truck as a MH 7 years ago. Don't believe there was verbage in the statute at that time which would eliminate my hitch. Laws change from time to time, so it's quite possible that was added at a later date. At any rate, it's not been an issue for 7 years. Sometimes when laws are changed, it results in a situation where some folks are "grandfathered" into the new law, doesn't always mean someone is engaged in felony falsification of an official document. Thanks!

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Dolly,

 

I'll have some Dr Pepper, only I'll need some Vodka in it...mostly Vodka I think. This inability to get REASONABLE insurance is about to kill my deal and dream!

 

MrSea, I've searched this site as well as others for a solution. None found.

 

It's such BS, the insurance companies are happy for me to use in inadequate truck, F-550, to pull a light duty, poorly built trailer when I could have a much safer and capable combination with a HDT and trailer! In my first post I mistakenly put Miller and Lori together. Lori works for Thum Insurance, absolutely useless, whereas Miller and Marlene have been nothing but helpful and courteous, even though she is sure she can't help me. Great company!

 

Sucks, but I guess I'm stuck with a little truck and trailer!

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Dave, my drom box is mounted on the frame rails at the "front" of my truck bed. It is "above" AND "forward" of my axle. If I moved it directly over the axle it would be only "above" and if I moved it to the back of the bed it would still be "above" the axle, wouldn't it? It is definitely not under it. It might be rearward but it would still be above it. And any hitch mounted on top of the frame rails is "above" the axle too, right? It's kinda like an oreo cookie. Doesn't matter which way you do it but if you lay it flat on the table one of the cookies is always above of the creme center :o .

Judging from the pictures on their form, I bet if you showed them a picture (like the one on that form) and said "it has a 5th wheel connecting device" their answer would be "no". Especially since that is plainly what the form says you may not have. It never mentions towing a fifth wheel trailer, it says you may not have the "fifth wheel connecting device". And it never mentions where you mount that device. Florida also doesn't mention a "fifth wheel trailer". They mention only "semi trailers". I disagree with their definition, but hey, it is theirs, not mine.

Their form addresses the situation this way:

You will find that same quote on page 6 and 8 of the Florida TL-13 form.

 

 

 

This one was kind of lame. You really had to grasp at some straws to come up with a way to disagree with me this time, didn't you? I certainly would not want to stand before a judge trying to convince him that I hadn't committed a felony when I signed the affidavit because I moved my "fifth wheel connecting device" rearward of my axle. And I'm betting that everyone here that is not trying to sneak past the Florida law would agree with me, except for you and Goldrush (or one of his alias id's).

 

 

That whole form is a mess of inconsistencies. They try to tell you that you can only tow a trailer, with no weight on the towing vehicle, yet in their example, they clearly show a semitrailer, not a full trailer, with a portion of its weight resting on the tow vehicle. Interestingly, it's MY RIG in that photo!! And it's certainly designed to tow a semitrailer as much as any RV hauler with an ET or TrailerSaver, in fact more, as my hitch is rated for 40,000 lbs. But neither photo shows a connecting device--just the location of the connecting device.

 

What someone has tried to do is take the general shape of a vehicle and what they want to be OK or not and cherry pick legal references around that. There's nothing in statute that makes a distinction between my rig and the toter in the second photo--and some form/FAQ has absolutely no bearing on what the law actually requires. Even the distinction between whether or not is has a fifth wheel connecting device is pulled out of thin air, and is being used to make a determination of whether it's a truck tractor or not. Certainly, with a similar definition in Texas, you'd argue that a truck with a bed on it is no longer a truck tractor, right? It has the ability to carry cargo on its own now, and is no longer only useful in pulling other vehicles.

45' 2004 Showhauler -- VNL300, ISX, FreedomLine -- RVnerds.com -- where I've started to write about what I'm up to

Headlight and Fog Light Upgrades http://deepspacelighting.com

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Dolly,

 

I'll have some Dr Pepper, only I'll need some Vodka in it...mostly Vodka I think. This inability to get REASONABLE insurance is about to kill my deal and dream!

 

MrSea, I've searched this site as well as others for a solution. None found.

 

It's such BS, the insurance companies are happy for me to use in inadequate truck, F-550, to pull a light duty, poorly built trailer when I could have a much safer and capable combination with a HDT and trailer! In my first post I mistakenly put Miller and Lori together. Lori works for Thum Insurance, absolutely useless, whereas Miller and Marlene have been nothing but helpful and courteous, even though she is sure she can't help me. Great company!

 

Sucks, but I guess I'm stuck with a little truck and trailer!

 

Diesel,

 

Indeed at times dealing with heavy trucks suck just from the "outlying-issues" that make heavy truck ownership and operations a pain in the kiester at times and downright insane at times.

 

Phil has predicted that someday that our slave masters will strike down the HDT RV exemption and then only DOT / Commercial operations will exist.......I have on the other hand have predicted that the HDT RV insurance pool is way too tiny and fragmented and in a heartbeat any underwriter can simply decide to leave and poof we have no insurance.

 

Tiny insurance markets can be dangerous markets as you are finding out.

 

Obviously you have a HDT dream.....but so far it is just a dream......just imagine that you actually own a HDT RV and can not obtain insurance at all that is called a .....nightmare.

 

Pico-insurance-markets have took chunks out of my hide a couple of times in the aircraft world where certain aircraft models become nearly impossible to insure overnight and then the market value of the models plummet over night as well..........bad juju...

 

Phil is the Man when it comes to Dr Pepper so he can advise on the propper vodka ratios.......

 

As far as Florida and insurance is concerned just roll the dice and see where it takes you.....

 

Drive on........(Don't run out of .....Dr Pepper.....or....vodka)

97 Freightshaker Century Cummins M11-370 / 1350 /10 spd / 3:08 /tandem/ 20ft Garage/ 30 ft Curtis Dune toybox with a removable horse-haul-module to transport Dolly-The-Painthorse to horse camps and trail heads all over the Western U S

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So I'm a newby here, first post. I have, however, searched for the solution to my problem on this site.

 

I am a Florida resident, non CDL license, but will get one if absolutely needed, with a contract to purchase an International Prostar tractor with tandem axels. I have also made a deal on an older Tennesee drop down trailer, partiality converted to a living quarter trailer. I need...er, want this combination so I can haul my 7,000 pound Jeep and my motorcycles with me, not something a light duty 5th wheel can do!

 

The problem I'm having is insurance, I can get it, but at the commercial rate, $8 to 10 thousand a year. Not gonna happen. I've called everyone and their brother and can't do any better. Miller, forget it can't help, although Lori suggest I should buy the truck and have an axel removed, BUT would not garrentee she could get insurance, let alone give me a price if she could. She was very indignant that I would not do this and scolded me for not listening to her. Great business model!

 

Suggestions, ideas.

 

Suggestion #1, if you are retired, change your domicile to South Dakota, register and insure your vehicles in SD. If you own property in Fla, you will no longer receive the resident's tax credit. I do not know if this is viable if you are still working and this could have other ramifications for heath care coverage.

 

Suggestion #2, if the Tennessee Drop Down trailer is a bumper pull, remove the 5th wheel hitch and register the truck as a MH or private truck. That is legal. You'll have to find out what Fla requires for it to be considered a MH. Before you go that route, check with your insurance agent to make sure it can be insured as a MH or private truck if it is registered as an MH or private truck. Carriers may still view it as a heavy truck as they did when I queried my independent insurance agent last year. Insurance is state specific, meaning what works in Georgia/Missouri/any other state does not necessarily hold true for Fla.

 

Suggestion #3, if the Tennessee Drop Down trailer is a fifthwheel, remove the 5th wheel hitch and register the truck as a MH, then put the fifthwheel hitch back on. That is not legal, but the risks of being caught are pretty slim. You'll have to find out what Fla requires for it to be considered a MH. Before you go that route, check with your insurance agent to make sure it can be insured as a MH if it is registered as an MH. Carriers may still view it as a heavy truck as they did when I queried my independent insurance agent last year. Insurance is state specific, meaning what works in Georgia/Missouri/any other state does not necessarily hold true for Fla.

 

Suggestion #4, cancel the deal on the Tennessee Drop Down trailer and instead use the money to buy a towbar for the jeep, a Rampage lift for the bed of a capable pickup truck, and stay in hotels/tent camp.

 

FYI, insurance carriers may not care if the truck is singled or not. It made no difference when I tried to get insurance for a singled truck last year. It may make a difference to your local municipality. Mine considers a tandem HDT commercial regardless of it being registered as a private truck or MH, and therefore not allowed to be parked at a residence. Singled it would be fine to park in my driveway. I almost opted for Suggestion 1 last year, but decided it was a bit more drastic a change than I cared for. A few months later while on a trip, it turned out to be the right decision for me.

 

Personally I would not spend the money on an HDT and then hope for the best. That is an easy way to lose money, IMO.

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Dave, my drom box is mounted on the frame rails at the "front" of my truck bed. It is "above" AND "forward" of my axle. If I moved it directly over the axle it would be only "above" and if I moved it to the back of the bed it would still be "above" the axle, wouldn't it? It is definitely not under it. It might be rearward but it would still be above it. And any hitch mounted on top of the frame rails is "above" the axle too, right? It's kinda like an oreo cookie. Doesn't matter which way you do it but if you lay it flat on the table one of the cookies is always above of the creme center :o .

 

If they said "above and forward" then I might read it your way.

 

But given that it says "above or forward" I'd parse that as referring only to fore-and-aft position, not up and down.

 

I'm sure in the end you'd have to talk to the Judge to clarify though :-)

2007 Volvo 780 Volvo D12D, 465hp, 1650 ft/lbs tq., ultrashift

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