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The old goat is at it again


phoenix2013

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Have you ever thought of using a Hollo-Bolt for the fastenings to the tubes? They are made for structural applications to tube steel. It would eliminate the sleeves in the tubes and only need holes in one side.

I am not sure if they are available in the Grade 8 though.

Dave

2005 Freightliner Century S/T, Singled, Air ride ET Jr. hitch
2019 46'+ Dune Sport Man Cave custom 5th wheel toy hauler
Owner of the 1978 Custom Van "Star Dreamer" which might be seen at a local car show near you!

 

Check out http://www.hhrvresource.com/

for much more info on HDT's.

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By no means do I understand all the dynamic but when I look at the connection to the frame it looks like a pivot that will (for lack of knowing a better term) twist the bolts holding the hitch to the angle.

The bolts would see less twist if the long horizontal pieces of angle was on the opposite side of the HSS from the frame bolts or there was a piece of angle on both side of the HSS at the connection (8 bolts instead of 4) to the frame.  

2011 Cameo 34SB3

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On 07/24/2017 at 10:00 PM, J-T said:

By no means do I understand all the dynamic but when I look at the connection to the frame it looks like a pivot that will (for lack of knowing a better term) twist the bolts holding the hitch to the angle.

The bolts would see less twist if the long horizontal pieces of angle was on the opposite side of the HSS from the frame bolts or there was a piece of angle on both side of the HSS at the connection (8 bolts instead of 4) to the frame.  

JT, think of the 1/2" bottom plate as a diaphragm plate with the tube, ET frame and angle acting as a stiffener to prevent out of plane buckling. What you have is a single sided connection angle which would not be OK in my world due to AISC connection guidelines (take a look at the PDF link that I posted for my suggestion) but would work engineering wise. For any engineering problem, you can have a LOT of solutions, all of them will work but some will be better than others depending on shop time and equipment. I just happen to avoid a single bolt connection for anything unless I don't have any other options.

2017 Kenworth T680
2015 DRV 38RSSA Elite Suites
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On 7/24/2017 at 7:00 PM, J-T said:

By no means do I understand all the dynamic but when I look at the connection to the frame it looks like a pivot that will (for lack of knowing a better term) twist the bolts holding the hitch to the angle.

The bolts would see less twist if the long horizontal pieces of angle was on the opposite side of the HSS from the frame bolts or there was a piece of angle on both side of the HSS at the connection (8 bolts instead of 4) to the frame.  

 

1 hour ago, GeorgiaHybrid said:

JT, think of the 1/2" bottom plate as a diaphragm plate with the tube, ET frame and angle acting as a stiffener to prevent out of plane buckling. What you have is a single sided connection angle which would not be OK in my world due to AISC connection guidelines (take a look at the PDF link that I posted for my suggestion) but would work engineering wise. For any engineering problem, you can have a LOT of solutions, all of them will work but some will be better than others depending on shop time and equipment. I just happen to avoid a single bolt connection for anything unless I don't have any other options.

Henry......admit defeat on this one......you are one screwed old goat on this one.....

So as long as OVERBUILDINg is the rule of engagement on this project consider that in order to obtain my highly desired "provisional-approval" you will need to purchase a pickup load of one inch plywood and form up a box-form and then pour high strength grout around the entire mounting system as sketched .....now Henry don't cut your usual corners here on the "pour" $pend some of your excess profits and buy a torpedo vibrator so that you obtain a best practices void-free pour of your grout.

......now since you obviously need "guidance" here perhaps all of us comrades her could vote on the specs of the grout to be utilized.......

Now of course now that we have come to grips with your "needs-4-Engeernearing-Guide-ence.....we will next flogg the concepts of addressing the dreaded span-stressing of the Volvo frame the Scrap called out recently......

Perhaps we could cobble up a test fixture and a few hundred BIG hyd-cylinder$ and Wiffleetreez and test a few "Cupionz" to failure......

Gee Henry .....how many test Volvo's do you think 13 $peed should purchase for the next phase of this project...

Who would ever thought that this EnGiNeeeRiNg thingy wood bee so darn much funnn??

Drive on .......(forget the bolts.....I vote stainless 321 upset rivets hole-filling in six-d-spacing-five-rows...... drawings to be issued shortly.....standby....)

97 Freightshaker Century Cummins M11-370 / 1350 /10 spd / 3:08 /tandem/ 20ft Garage/ 30 ft Curtis Dune toybox with a removable horse-haul-module to transport Dolly-The-Painthorse to horse camps and trail heads all over the Western U S

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3 hours ago, Dollytrolley said:

 

Henry......admit defeat on this one......you are one screwed old goat on this one.....

So as long as OVERBUILDINg is the rule of engagement on this project consider that in order to obtain my highly desired "provisional-approval" you will need to purchase a pickup load of one inch plywood and form up a box-form and then pour high strength grout around the entire mounting system as sketched .....now Henry don't cut your usual corners here on the "pour" $pend some of your excess profits and buy a torpedo vibrator so that you obtain a best practices void-free pour of your grout.

......now since you obviously need "guidance" here perhaps all of us comrades her could vote on the specs of the grout to be utilized.......

Now of course now that we have come to grips with your "needs-4-Engeernearing-Guide-ence.....we will next flogg the concepts of addressing the dreaded span-stressing of the Volvo frame the Scrap called out recently......

Perhaps we could cobble up a test fixture and a few hundred BIG hyd-cylinder$ and Wiffleetreez and test a few "Cupionz" to failure......

Gee Henry .....how many test Volvo's do you think 13 $peed should purchase for the next phase of this project...

Who would ever thought that this EnGiNeeeRiNg thingy wood bee so darn much funnn??

Drive on .......(forget the bolts.....I vote stainless 321 upset rivets hole-filling in six-d-spacing-five-rows...... drawings to be issued shortly.....standby....)

Yes Dolly, OVERBUILDING, has been my mantra since I started playing with things "heavy" such as fifths, HDTs, hitches and heads. One sleeps better at night and the few extra (or even extra, extra) pounds of steel doesn't make  a diddly difference. This kind of thinking is diametrically opposed to machines and products that take flight, but that is a totally different world, different engineering and most definitely different price point for products offered in that world.

I agree wholeheartedly that for any engineering "challenge" there will be as many solutions as the number of engineers looking at it. And some of these engineers (usually old goats) might even "conceive", twins, triplets, or quadruplets. I am utilizing a methafor, here, speaking about ideas only, not a result of young billy goats pursuing yews in heat.

Although, this old goat is still interested in occasionally casting a sideways glance at a yew, he has more time to study esoteric things such as 150 ksi, grade 8 bolts in shear and tension. For the benefit of the younger (still yew chasing) generation, 3/4" bolt is 53,000 pounds in tension and 40,000 pounds in shear, there will be 4 of them in shear in this "solution" for a total of 160,000 pounds. I would venture it's OVERBUILT AND OVER-DESIGNED.

The 5/8" bolt is 36,000 pounds in tension and 28,000 pound in shear, there will be four of them in shear for a 112,000 pounds and 8 of them in tension for 288,000 pounds, although alternately (depending whether the forces are generated by pulling away or stopping) either front or rear tube will be compressing against the angle taking the tension away in that area.

Having observed and measured actual forces pulling fifths

TbTZG3ol.jpg

with a strain gauge instrumented king pin, we observed 1/8 G on takeoffs and 1/2 G on stopping (with the trailer brakes disabled) and that was being as aggressive as we dared to be doing it. This translates on 20,000 pound trailer to about 2,500 pounds pull on the hitch taking off and to 10,000 pounds push on the hitch stopping.

Of course these numbers are out the window if you go in the ditch or lay the trailer on the side.

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Gee Henry .....how many test Volvo's do you think 13 $peed should purchase for the next phase of this project...

I have it on good authority that 13speed can barely afford the ONE let alone multipals  . He will be the one at the rallies with the "will work for beer" sign!

Chris, Tracey, Aria & Lola

2018 Volvo VNR 400, D13 I-Shift

2018 NH 48' Majestic

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  • 3 weeks later...
1 hour ago, Wrknrvr said:

 Just curious if the old goat is stuck in grease.

 

 What's happening Henry.

 

 Have fun ,.  Vern

 

He is on vacation till the end of the month. I am not sure if he is checking the forum or not.

Chris, Tracey, Aria & Lola

2018 Volvo VNR 400, D13 I-Shift

2018 NH 48' Majestic

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Henry,

Don't sweat the $$$ ......it looks like at least two of the three rocker box gaskets can be saved and with a tube of Goop Shoe Sole Glue you can reuse the gaskets ...........then use the rest of the Goop to patch the soles of your shoes ....cause it aint lookin good for new shoes after ya get ole red patched together again........

 

Drive on...........(ya gotta love.......truckin)

97 Freightshaker Century Cummins M11-370 / 1350 /10 spd / 3:08 /tandem/ 20ft Garage/ 30 ft Curtis Dune toybox with a removable horse-haul-module to transport Dolly-The-Painthorse to horse camps and trail heads all over the Western U S

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4 hours ago, 13speed said:

I guess you did not go on vacation. Have you figured out the issue yet?

Half vacation, wife still up north with the grand kids.

.Aha!

8CMTQukl.jpg

gpkp6LBl.jpg

Hold-down bolt for # 6 injector broken, injector gaskets kaput, head gasket kaput, fluid in # 6, therefore hydro-locked.

Suspicion, by me and the mechanic (hasn't seen anything like this in 30 years). Truck serviced in Hutch few years back for a bad injector. Mechanic suspects the reassembly procedure was on the high side of horseshit, not uncommon on cylinder number six, though to get to.

Good news, bottom end and crank look good. 

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10 hours ago, phoenix2013 said:

Half vacation, wife still up north with the grand kids.

.Aha!

8CMTQukl.jpg

gpkp6LBl.jpg

Hold-down bolt for # 6 injector broken, injector gaskets kaput, head gasket kaput, fluid in # 6, therefore hydro-locked.

Suspicion, by me and the mechanic (hasn't seen anything like this in 30 years). Truck serviced in Hutch few years back for a bad injector. Mechanic suspects the reassembly procedure was on the high side of horseshit, not uncommon on cylinder number six, though to get to.

Good news, bottom end and crank look good. 

You brought up a situation that I weigh every time I consider letting someone else "touch my equipment".   Will they use my wallet to change out parts until it appears to be fixed?  Will they screw something else up that I won't come across until later?   Will they even put all the fasteners back in?  Will they torque things correctly?  Will there be damage to the vehicle with the famous " I didn't do it....it was that way when it came in"  Or will they charge 10x what the job is worth, hoping I agree to a free muffler bearing repack.

 

In almost every case, I can't deal with the collateral damage or wallet rape, and do the work myself, even if I have never done the job before.

On the up side, it is apparent there is one good diesel mechanic (that also does hitches) in Florida that I would trust if I had a problem :)

 

 

2009 Volvo 780 D16 535hp 1850 ft-lbs I shift 3.36

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I have two mechanics pondering this "situation". One very good friend of mine (we've known each other for years) who used to teach diesel technology at a junior college in New Hampshire. Not just theory, they would take clunkers from local businesses and a year or two later deliver zero time truck.

The other is a local diesel mechanic and his primary clientele is boat owners. So working on a truck in a garage is a "luxury" for him. He had the engine stripped right down to pistons in eight hours and the bottom off and the pistons and liners out in about three. Not his first rodeo.

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7 hours ago, Mastercraft said:

Will there be damage to the vehicle with the famous " I didn't do it....it was that way when it came in" 

Last time I let someone else work on my truck, it "lost" about 75-80 gallons of fuel over what I would expect for test driving and dyno runs, has a big scrape that's horizontal when the hood is open, and still runs rough.

But, it runs far better than when I took it in....

KW T-680, POPEMOBILE
Newmar X-Aire, VATICAN
Lots of old motorcycles, Moto Guzzi Griso and Spyder F3 currently in the front row
Young enough to play in the dirt as a retired farmer.
contact me at rickeieio1@comcast.net

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11 hours ago, Mastercraft said:

 

On the up side, it is apparent there is one good diesel mechanic (that also does hitches) in Florida that I would trust if I had a problem :)

Well that's for sure....so many of them these days would tell you to come back after they have the engine out (hrs x $$$) on a stand where it is easier to work on.

2011 Cameo 34SB3

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