"What is a Deep Cycle Battery" write-up

[Yarome]

Has anyone seen this before? Who knew a marine electrician knew his "s**tuff"!  (Just kidding you boaters. No offense intended)

Just "happened" across this write-up and I really couldn't find much at all that I would disagree with. He covers what they are, types, identification, the 12v vs. 6v question, wiring a bank, plates, identification, and on and on. Pretty much everything you would ever want to know about wet cells. Quite an impressive read!

It's 3 pages... so grab a bevvy.. but well worth your time.

[trailertraveler]

Where is this article? I can't find a link in your post.

[Yarome]

10 minutes ago, trailertraveler said:

I can't find a link in your post.

Oops! That would have been very helpful, wouldn't it?  Updated. 

[Daveh]

I have seen his stuff before Yarome. For anyone making their  own battery/inverter cables he has a lot of helpful tips. Also, and mainly, for anyone thinking of making their own lithium battery pack, or even if you own a premade pack, His discussion of pack assembly and balancing is excellent.   

[Yarome]

16 minutes ago, Daveh said:

I have seen his stuff before   

First time I've run across this guy. I found my way back to his other electrical write ups. Some REALLY great reading in there! Simple.. straight forward plain ol English any layman could understand. Great resource!

I was just reading his "Do I need a Solar Controller" that also covers float charges that could be a write up topic all unto itself. Good stuff, that.

[TheLongWayHome]

42 minutes ago, Yarome said:

Oops! That would have been very helpful, wouldn't it?  Updated. 

Excellent find. Thanks. The marine industry and parts are a source of many of my offroad and will be on my RV projects. Robust, build to take a beating and harsh environments. Other than a lot of saltwater, a lot a similarity to the mobile RV environments.

Quote

Daveh

I have seen his stuff before Yarome. For anyone making their  own battery/inverter cables he has a lot of helpful tips. Also, and mainly, for anyone thinking of making their own lithium battery pack, or even if you own a premade pack, His discussion of pack assembly and balancing is excellent.   

Dave,

You mentioned lithium battery pack on that site, but I could not find it. Hidden somewhere? Or I'm .  I'm interested in a LiFePo4 system. Victron (marina background also) has a great set of components. But $$$$. I will use a lot of marine based components (Blue Sea, Marinco/BEF) there too. Sorry, did not mean to hijack.

[Yarome]

4 minutes ago, TheLongWayHome said:

You mentioned lithium battery pack on that site, but I could not find it. 

It might be in here... "LiFePO4 On Boats". I was looking for that too, but got distracted by preceeding write-ups.

I haven't read it yet, but plan to.

[TheLongWayHome]

Thanks Yarome,  I was searching on Lithium. Should have know better.  Thanks for the link.

[TheLongWayHome]

As a thank you, Yerome.  Here is a YouTube series of a guy building a LiFePo4 solar hybrid system for his toyhauler. He uses a lot (my pinion too much, due to plan as you go approach!!) of Victron stuff. A lot of details and long videos!!!!! But if you are a sparky type, you will love it. May need a number of adult beverages.

 

I better start a LiFePo4 topic later!

[Yarome]

1 hour ago, TheLongWayHome said:

Here is a YouTube series of a guy building a LiFePo4 solar hybrid system

Hey.. Thanks! I'll take a look at that when I get somewhere I can use my mobley. Anything that sparks or coughs blue smoke.. I'm IN! 

[Sehc]

I am surprised no one found this thread.

But there are many other threads on this forum that have helped with my education. Rod at Maine Sail is the best expert, does lots of experimenting and bench tests.

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f14/lifepo4-batteries-discussion-thread-for-those-using-them-as-house-banks-65069.html

[rideandfly]

Appreciate the battery information links. 

We were looking at Battle Born Lithiums with built in BMS, but purchased Duracell AGM Marine/RV 12V 27 series at Sam's instead (because of $). If we had purchased Battle Born Batterys, they gave us the parameters to change the solar charging profile to. Progressive Dynamics gave us the part number to upgrade our PD4045 charging section to a lithium charger. Renogy told me I needed to change the Solar Panel controller charging profile to Gel Cell (factory) setting for the AGM batterys, so I did.

https://battlebornbatteries.com/

http://www.driveduracell.com/assets/duracell/image/1686.pdf

Will see how it all works out.

Bill

Oliver TT

 

[Yarome]

46 minutes ago, rideandfly said:

Renogy told me I needed to change the Solar Panel controller charging profile to Gel Cell (factory) setting, so I did.

Yeah.... NO!  Don't do that. The only major difference between Renogy's gel and other factory type settings is that it doesn't run a 2 hour equalization charge and the bulk voltage is quite low (14.2v).

Your Duracells are hybrid deep cycle AGM's. I really don't care for either of their other profiles, but realize they are trying to "provide for all" in only 3 settings. It's a coin toss as to which would be better, but overall... compromising charge times and battery life... on your Duracells... I would stay with the "sealed" setting.

You're choice. I'm sure the Renogy rep you spoke to is likely regurgitating that "AGM's don't like "equalization" bursts". That's far outdated info and no reason to drag out charge times on a barely adequate charge rate. IMHO. AGM's tolerate those 2 hour "equalizations" (it's only 14.6v.. which is really where your bulk charge rate should be) better than not being able to put on a 100% charge.

It's not a bad battery, but just be aware that if you only have the one you're running with a 90ah battery. If you follow the general rule of not discharging below 50% that leaves you with 45ah's of "usable" capacity.

You kind of ended up on polar opposites of the battery scales (lithium vs. hybrid).  Budget considerations are important, but if it fits your needs and keeps ya campin.. it's ALL good!! 

[Yarome]

I probably should have added too though.. It's a little dependant on which controller you are using. All are pretty much running the same charge profiles, but a very few DO have a bit different factory profiles where it would actually be better to run your Duracell/s on the "flooded" setting. 

[rideandfly]

Yarome,

Appreciate the response!

It only takes a few minute to change parameters with factory settings with the Renogy Viewstar VS1024BN controller.  If understand you correctly, should change to sealed setting?

Viewstar VS1024BN manual:

http://www.renogy.com/template/files/Manuals/10A-20A-30A-PWM-Viewstar-Solar-Charge-Controller-Manual.pdf

Installed two 27 series Duracells in parallel and have room for three 27 series batterys if needed.

Thanks,

Bill

Oliver TT

[Yarome]

57 minutes ago, rideandfly said:

If understand you correctly, should change to sealed setting?

Above.. I was talking in general terms based on their standard presets. Now knowing your specific model... "sealed" would be better than "gel", but you're best preset would be to use "flooded" (gel being choice #3 of the 3). 

Athough... if you're interested in trying to sqeeze out as much as you can out of your solar then your controller IS capable of custom settings. Remembering though that the learning curve would be a little "steep" and, with a very limited amount of current to work with, the "return" would not be great.

What you have would be a good learning bed though. With less current comes less risk of doing harm to your battery bank.

[Yarome]

1 hour ago, rideandfly said:

Installed two 27 series Duracells in parallel 

Any chance of seeing a picture of the top wiring on those?

[Itinerant1]

On 7/20/2017 at 7:02 PM, TheLongWayHome said:

As a thank you, Yerome.  Here is a YouTube series of a guy building a LiFePo4 solar hybrid system for his toyhauler. He uses a lot (my pinion too much, due to plan as you go approach!!) of Victron stuff. A lot of details and long videos!!!!! But if you are a sparky type, you will love it. May need a number of adult beverages.

 

I better start a LiFePo4 topic later!

Just finished watching all of the 10 videos (fast forwarding through some) very impressive. That's quite the system but did use alot of basement area. I'm sure in a toyhauler the garage will carry your extras instead. 

 

[TheLongWayHome]

18 minutes ago, Itinerant1 said:

Just finished watching all of the 10 videos (fast forwarding through some) very impressive. That's quite the system but did use alot of basement area. I'm sure in a toyhauler the garage will carry your extras instead. 

 

It you think the design through ahead of time on loads - amount (how often, how many) of A/C usage, types of appliances (W/D, DW, Fridge and any big power usage stuff), you can design it with a lot less components (and expense). Also need to understand your "use cases" - from princess power (50A RV park), to 30A, to moochdocking (<15A at a friend/relatives house), to all the way to boondocking. Here is an full Victron install by AM Solar on a 38' non-toyhauler DRV - 900Ah (potentially 720Ah usable) of batteries and 1280W solar!!!.  They did use the Victron LiFePo4 batteries ($$$), but it a lot smaller and fit in the corner of the basement. The batteries are in the black box on the left in the center picture.

[rideandfly]

6 hours ago, Yarome said:

Above.. I was talking in general terms based on their standard presets. Now knowing your specific model... "sealed" would be better than "gel", but you're best preset would be to use "flooded" (gel being choice #3 of the 3). 

 

Yarome,

Thanks, Will change the solar controller to flooded!.

[rideandfly]

6 hours ago, Yarome said:

Any chance of seeing a picture of the top wiring on those?

Yarome,

Installed the Duracells last week and have not been camping with them, yet.

Connected the batteries + to + to + cable to PD convertor and - to - with blade switch between battery - post and - cable to the PD convertor.

[Itinerant1]

1 hour ago, TheLongWayHome said:

It you think the design through ahead of time on loads - amount (how often, how many) of A/C usage, types of appliances (W/D, DW, Fridge and any big power usage stuff), you can design it with a lot less components (and expense). Also need to understand your "use cases" - from princess power (50A RV park), to 30A, to moochdocking (<15A at a friend/relatives house), to all the way to boondocking. Here is an full Victron install by AM Solar on a 38' non-toyhauler DRV - 900Ah (potentially 720Ah usable) of batteries and 1280W solar!!!.  They did use the Victron LiFePo4 batteries ($$$), but it a lot smaller and fit in the corner of the basement. The batteries are in the black box on the left in the center picture.

I like looking at other system myself and having 500AH (400 usable) GBS LFMP batteries, 1280 watt solar. Taking up little room, under the light and right is everything with the Me Arc 50 and display in the trailer.

 

[TheLongWayHome]

24 minutes ago, Itinerant1 said:

I like looking at other system myself and having 500AH (400 usable) GBS LFMP batteries, 1280 watt solar. Taking up little room, under the light and right is everything with the Me Arc 50 and display in the trailer.

 

Nice!!  It this your own design or contracted (Starlight Solar???)? I consider Magnum and Victron as the two best high-end hybrid systems (may start a preferred vendor war here!!). Actually the only two hybrid systems that I know of. And AM Solar and Starlight Solar as the two best LiFePo4 system installers (OOMV!). I do have my owns designs (layout, components) based on Magnum and Victron. I like Victron's control center (Color Control) a little better and they have a lot of experience with Lithium (mostly boats [Yarome has issues with boaters ] and in the Rest of the World [non US]). They a new of RVs in the US.

May have to start a separate LiFePo4 thread, as I think I may have diverged from the original OP topic. Sorry Yarome (but I know you are interested in all things sparky!).

[Itinerant1]

Star light install I wanted a working system and I'm sure not seasoned enough to install myself.

Yes, sorry for the hi jack back to the original thread.

[TheLongWayHome]

5 hours ago, rideandfly said:

Yarome,

Installed the Duracells last week and have not been camping with them, yet.

Connected the batteries + to + to + cable to PD convertor and - to - with blade switch between battery - post and - cable to the PD convertor.

rideandfly,

Some general guidance on wiring multiple (I believe you potentially going to add one more) batteries in parallel. I generally use method 3 is there is space and I believe its easier to do swap-outs or other changes. Based on what I can determine from the pictures, I would put the yellow wire going to the charge controller on the other battery (not the same battery as the red wire going to the charge controller).

I believe your solar charge controller in only 10A, but not sure what gauge wire you are using or how far away the charge controller is located. Perhaps it came as a fixed gauge and length with the kit. Also presume the load will be taken off the charge controller directly. Here is a table and tool to help with wire gauge. Bigger wire (smaller gauge number) is always better for less voltage drop as the current and distance increases. Only limited by cost and the ability to work it in the space given!!