HDT Acquisition Cost and Total Cost of Ownership

[RickW]

For longterm ownership you should find the HDT much cheaper to operate.  In our case our HDT over the 7 years we owned it was much cheaper to operate than our previous SuperDuty.  Simply put our SuperDuty was requiring more repairs and more often.  With the SuperDuty we were towing at its limits.  With the HDT, it was not breaking a sweat.  Typically anything working at its limits is going to wear out or break down faster than something that is not.

The big difference is when you spend money on a HDT you are going to spend more of it at that point in time.  You are just not going to do it as often.  Example is tires.  I was putting tires on the P/U every 24 to 30 months.  With the HDT I was replacing tires because of age not wear.  I almost cried writing the check for new tires on the HDT, but in the same period of time I would have spent as much or more for tires on the P/U.  Oil Changes, same thing.  It comes down to the frequency I was having to perform the same tasks on the P/U vs HDT.

Repairs on the road with the HDT are easier too.  Think about a HDT when in commercial service is not making money if the wheels are not rolling.  With my P/U, I pulled in to the Ford Dealership in Flagstaff AZ and was told it would take two weeks to even look at the truck.  With the HDT at the 2016 ECR I lost the idle tension pully.  2 hours after pulling into the repair shop (no appointment, just pulled in) I was repaired and on the road.

As for hauler beds, I think Carl has a good point.  In my case, I built the bed specifically for the the '87 Jeep we had at the time.  Even when we purchased a new Jeep, there were enough changes that while it worked it was noticeably different due to changes to the '14 Jeep.  If I built to allow just a few more inches hear or there the transition from one Jeep to the other would have been smoother.  When the Smarts got wider, some of the earlier builds for the early Smarts had some issues with the newer cars, again because they were built specifically for the early, narrower cars.  Now with the Smarts the issue is availability if looking to purchase a new one in the future.

As for loading a vehicle at an angle, personally I don't like it.  For starters, I am not getting any younger.  Loading at angle will require much more climbing around on the truck & vehicle to securing it to the truck.  This takes more time and increase the possibility of slipping and falling.  By loading flat, I was able to drive the vehicle on to the HDT.  To secure the vehicle, my feat were on the ground.  No climbing around on the truck.  It was quick, simple and I felt safest.  Anybody who wanted to watch me load/unload would miss it if they went to go get their lawn chair, camera or a beer.  I was able to do it that quickly.

I will close with, if you are looking for your last and final tow vehicle a HDT is a strong choice.  Once dialed in it will give you many years and miles of dependable service.  The longer you keep & use it the less it is going to cost you per mile.  A P/U based platform will shine if you like to change tow vehicles frequently or when you sell you need to move it quickly.

[Biker56]

Quote

Do you tow all four down or have to use a dolly/trailer? I presume the former, as you would have to "get rid of" the dolly/trailer if stopped for length/triple-towing violations.

Why not put a hitch on the car so a dolly or trailer can be pulled by it if needed?

[TheLongWayHome]

44 minutes ago, RickW said:

[Abbreviated]

As for hauler beds, I think Carl has a good point.  In my case, I built the bed specifically for the the '87 Jeep we had at the time.  Even when we purchased a new Jeep, there were enough changes that while it worked it was noticeably different due to changes to the '14 Jeep.  If I built to allow just a few more inches hear or there the transition from one Jeep to the other would have been smoother.  When the Smarts got wider, some of the earlier builds for the early Smarts had some issues with the newer cars, again because they were built specifically for the early, narrower cars.  Now with the Smarts the issue is availability if looking to purchase a new one in the future.

Rick,

Thanks for the information and suggestions. I looked at the pictures of your setup - very nice. How long overall was it and did you have any "stoppages"?

I also saw a video somewhere of a jeep being loaded from the rear on a HDT. Might have been you. Very fast.  Did you do the bed yourself or have someone do it?

Gerry

 

[TheLongWayHome]

13 minutes ago, Biker56 said:

Why not put a hitch on the car so a dolly or trailer can be pulled by it if needed?

Good thought. Then you have two "double towers"

 

[rickeieio]

6 hours ago, raychristina said:

You could do a new horizon bumper pull instead of a 5th wheel. Then you could put many different vehicles on the bed. Heavymetal is selling his truck on the for sale section.

Sooooo, now you have me wondering (wandering, off topic?)  Given 65' overall length, could you have as much living space with a shorter truck hauling a car, and bumper pull, v. longer truck and 5er?

[TheLongWayHome]

For me (OP), it's a 5th wheel. For full-time, even with NH or SpaceCraft, it really has to be a 5th wheel for us. YOMV, but ...! Decided by DW and a more stable tow. It's the "decide the RV first, then the tow vehicle" guideline. So, on the tow vehicle, we are waiting for the RV dry and GVWR estimates, before finalizing the tow decision. It's likely to be a HDT.

We will not be finalizing everything until later this year and taking deliver in Spring 2018 to go full-time. Lots of logistics. So, sorry HeavyMetal, not ready to pull the trigger yet. Nice rig. No doubt it will sell - right buyer is out there.

[HERO Maker]

4 hours ago, TheLongWayHome said:

For me (OP), it's a 5th wheel. For full-time, even with NH or SpaceCraft, it really has to be a 5th wheel for us. YOMV, but ...! Decided by DW and a more stable tow. It's the "decide the RV first, then the tow vehicle" guideline. So, on the tow vehicle, we are waiting for the RV dry and GVWR estimates, before finalizing the tow decision. It's likely to be a HDT.

We will not be finalizing everything until later this year and taking deliver in Spring 2018 to go full-time. Lots of logistics. So, sorry HeavyMetal, not ready to pull the trigger yet. Nice rig. No doubt it will sell - right buyer is out there.

Just remember, by getting an HDT now, you won't have to change tow vehicles in the future if in fact you change trailers a couple of time in the future.  

[TheLongWayHome]

OP here (again),

So where are all the wizards with spreadsheets!  The dully guys have them. If you are concerned about public debate, you can PM me.

What I got from all the great inputs so far.

Go with Option 2. Go with a existing "pride and joy" completed RV hauler offered as a resale, that is close to our needs. Source: HDT Rally, this Forum or Craigslist (??).

With the unclear future of the Smart, limited side load road drive-able options, concerns about small-car "target eligibility" and overall length challenges, I might be faced with two different options:-

1. Get a short WB HDT (singled), no hauler bed, just hitch and trailer lights for the 5th wheel. Then the options on a touring driver are the HDT, or a toad with it's own hitch (4 wheels down or dolly/trailer OK). Toad can also be used as a scout vehicle. Some concerns of "triple towing" and overall length. Sample below (sold, current owner unknown):-

OR

1. HDT with a long WB (keep twin rear axles) and long hauler bed, hauler bed with rear load and hitch, 5th wheel. Concerns: On the length of the HDT/RV. Limited availability in "ready made". RickW early sample below.

Did I lose the plot or are there better ideas? Any personal experience with these two approaches? Have heard from RickW and FlyingFinn.

Continuing to absorb.

TheLongWayHome

Gerry

[tyates007]

7 hours ago, rickeieio said:

Sooooo, now you have me wondering (wandering, off topic?)  Given 65' overall length, could you have as much living space with a shorter truck hauling a car, and bumper pull, v. longer truck and 5er?

Rick I looked at this pretty serious when I built my truck. Short answer yes. On a travel trailer you have the length of the tongue vs the 5er on the end of the bed. I needed 14' for a vehicle on the bed which caused me to have a 20' bed. That gave me exactly 60" to the pin. If I had gone with the same length trailer that my 5th wheel is I could have had a 14' bed plus the tongue length of the travel trailer and it would have shortened me up 3-4' overall length. We considered this very seriously but in the end my wife didn't want to give up our current 5th wheel. For what it's worth we were looking at a Grand Design Reflections travel trailer that was 37' long. It had 3 slides and was pretty much the same rear living floor plan as our 5th wheel. 

[Star Dreamer]

On 7/15/2017 at 9:15 PM, Alie&Jim's Carrilite said:

There is a pic floating around of a Honda generator with a Smart car plugged into it...

I can just see the bumper sticker now "Honda Powered".

But if it takes 2-1/2 hours to recharge and you only have an 80 mile range, does that mean you can only go like 30 mph?

I wonder if the Honda generator motor is bigger than the gas powered Smart car motor!

Dave

[rickeieio]

While an 80 mile range is likely fine for some folks, I would think for a traveler, it would be very inconvenient. We often put way more than that on ours car in a day.  Biggest was almost 500 miles, chasing parts for the truck, in the Yukon.

[Sinbad5024]

Gerry,

   We were in a situation where we had a Class A and wanted a 5er. Had an 03 Dodge dually all setup to pull, and stop (exhaust brake, trans built, EDGE, etc.). Went to look at 1 5er and it was sold but the wife found one on the lot she really liked. Done. Now we have a dilemma where the trailer maxed out the towing capacity of the truck. I didn't like the numbers so I started looking at trucks. 4500/5500 Dodge, MDTs and HDTs. We found a truck that we liked and picked it up for under $20k. Installed a hitch, fridge, microwave and we are adding things as we go. We will be keeping ours tandem and going with a longer bed to keep our vehicle options open. We will also continue to add items as we progress for safety and convenience.We are looking in the $20k range (minus initial purchase) to have ours setup the way we want it. 

We are a little different as we are not close to retirement yet. We plan on attending the HDT rally in KS this year to get more information. I am not sure where you are located, you mentioned CO once. If you are in CO, I can tell you what it would take to get your HDT titled/registered as a MH. I spent many hours doing a lot of leg work to get ours set up. But it is all ready to go. Good luck with your search. 

[RickW]

19 hours ago, TheLongWayHome said:

Rick,

Thanks for the information and suggestions. I looked at the pictures of your setup - very nice. How long overall was it and did you have any "stoppages"?

I also saw a video somewhere of a jeep being loaded from the rear on a HDT. Might have been you. Very fast.  Did you do the bed yourself or have someone do it?

Gerry

Honestly, I don't know how long it was going down the road.  I never ran a tape measure down it.  My best guess is around 72' +/-.  In 7 years, 35 states, 70k+ miles, I was never stopped.  This included many trips in/out of the much feared state of California.

Keep in mind length limits very from state to state.  While your license and registration requirements are tied to your state of residency, length is not.  So even if legal in your home state you can still be over length and ticketed by another state you are traveling in.  So while 65' is a good length number to work with, it is not the end all/be all number to conform too.

Length is not a HDT only issue.  I now have a 45' motorhome.  When I tow our Jeep I am under 65' foot but only by a few feet.  So I am technically over length in any state with a length limit under 65' and subject to a ticket if stopped.  I also tow my Chevy P/U (crew cab/short box) behind the MH sometimes.  Now I am over length in most states, including my home state.

Keep in mind while I was over 65', the fact I was using a HDT as a RV is what most noticed, not my length.  My overall length was a few shorter than most semi trucks/trailers running down the highway.  Length did not seem out of place since my length was normal in the minds of most when they see a HDT.  My length was a calculated risk, no different than speeding.

As for video of loading/unloading, I never personally video tapped it.  On many occasions I was photographed/video-graphed loading/unloading by others.  So I am sure there are photos/videos some where on the internet.  Last year at the National HDT rally I was video tapped loading/unloading on to Rick Olson's new Jeep hauler bed.  He has built a very unique tilting bed for loading/unloading.  I know I have seen the video at one point but not sure where to find it.

We did build the bed ourselves.  Very simple, straight forward design.  When I say we, I mean, I had a lot of help.  I am a IT guy, my fabrication skills are limited at best.  Luckily my wife has two different cousins who each own/operate their own fabrication shops for a living.  I was basically their entry level shop hand as they built the bed.  I spent a lot of time fetching tools, sweeping and other tasks.  They could have never done it without my oversight and supervision (and checkbook).

[Dollytrolley]

On 7/15/2017 at 6:03 AM, beyerjf said:

Sounds like it is time for the battling spreadsheets. Let the games begin....

Hey Wong_Way......Jeff is likely the go-2-guy that could solve many of your questions AND maybe more....

Jeff has been paying truck bills way before this forum was even a thought.....so.....likely Jeff might have a spreadsheet or two....

Now maybe you could bribe Jeff with a few well placed gifts of..... Studebaker parts.......yes most folks have a vice or two or more Jeff seems to crave Studebaker ......

One more thing is that Jeff's truck is really ......really .....S H O R T.....it is a COE Frightshaker that is so clean and did I mention .....S  H  O   R  T........

Jeff could answer a lot of your questions the catch is.....do you have the right Studebaker part$.......

Drive on......(how many Studebaker parts do you have in stock.....today?)

[TheLongWayHome]

3 hours ago, Sinbad5024 said:

We are a little different as we are not close to retirement yet. We plan on attending the HDT rally in KS this year to get more information. I am not sure where you are located, you mentioned CO once. If you are in CO, I can tell you what it would take to get your HDT titled/registered as a MH. I spent many hours doing a lot of leg work to get ours set up. But it is all ready to go. Good luck with your search. 

Thanks Sinbad5024. Yes, I am in Colorado, but will be going full-time and will probably domicile in Texas or SD.

[TheLongWayHome]

1 hour ago, RickW said:

We did build the bed ourselves.  Very simple, straight forward design.  When I say we, I mean, I had a lot of help.  I am a IT guy, my fabrication skills are limited at best.  Luckily my wife has two different cousins who each own/operate their own fabrication shops for a living.  I was basically their entry level shop hand as they built the bed.  I spent a lot of time fetching tools, sweeping and other tasks.  They could have never done it without my oversight and supervision (and checkbook).

Thanks Rick for the details. I'm just an IT/EE guy too, but do not have any shop access or relatives with metal beating tool. That checkbook oversight is always important!

[TheLongWayHome]

46 minutes ago, Dollytrolley said:

Hey Wong_Way......Jeff is likely the go-2-guy that could solve many of your questions AND maybe more....

 

I'm still new here ... this Jeff fellow have a forum name? Seven Jeffs on the HDT resource guide. Two have Freightliners!  I'm guessing - beyerjf    He already threw down the spreadsheet challenge, but apparently everyone is too scared of Jeff.  Jeff, you will do share or have you seen my new "current conclusion" from late last night?

I'm just a Sparky, no mechanical parts .. and no Studebaker parts ... saw some Jay Leno Studebaker videos ....

[beyerjf]

To answer some of the questions, trying to stay on topic. 

I own 3 Studebakers, everything vehicle and of personal interest to me is spelled out in photographs on my Flickr site:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/118502133@N04/?

My HDT cost experience won't be of much use. I amortize costs over a much larger base of miles- averaging almost 100,000 miles per year for the past 17 years on my current tractor. The cost of my acquisition is about $06 per mile, someone buying a new tractor today and keeping it for 5 years would be $.16. His lower maintenance cost would offset some of the difference, but I would win.  Other variables that affect the cost in a big way are the fact that I am a trained mechanic that sub contracts only very large repairs, overhauls, clutches, that sort of thing. I have 3 friends in the same business who do not do any of their own work. My average maintenance cost is $.12 per mile, my buddies start at about .$16 per mile (subsidized company shop) and the worst is $.40 per mile, which would have bought him a brand new truck leased with a full service maintenance agreement, but he refuses to see it. They have trucks ranging from 2000 to 2012 model years. Pre and post emission has an effect on maintenance cost.

Leave the cost of configuration out of the equation for a moment. Since most duelly's can't be modified as much as most HDT's it is unfair to assign that savings to the duelly, or cost to HDT. Kind of like trying to compare 2 5th wheel trailers from very different manufacturers. Assign those costs to the I want category as opposed to the I need category. 

 Compare the cost of acquisition, interest and maintenance cost over say a 5 year period of both vehicles. Since miles are not a good yardstick I would tend to stay with monthly or yearly numbers. Gather data from users of both vehicles, the more prolific and precise the better, make educated conclusions about routine and unusual 1 time costs, assigning some sort of risk assessment  to some catastrophic costs (Joe had to replace his entire I-shift transmission, Harry had to replace the driveline wiring harness etc). Factor in how much you can or want to do. 

Being honest with yourself is the toughest part of the equation. Make rosy assumptions and you are wasting your time. This may get you to a conclusion about pure cost, the emotional side is well...

 

[TheLongWayHome]

2 hours ago, beyerjf said:

To answer some of the questions, trying to stay on topic. 

I own 3 Studebakers, everything vehicle and of personal interest to me is spelled out in photographs on my Flickr site:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/118502133@N04/?

 

 

Thanks Jeff for the insight.  Love the pictures.  Sorry, still no Studebaker parts.

[Star Dreamer]

When we were looking at buying a replacement for our 3500 Dually 5 years ago we did a spread sheet to compare the costs of a new dually, MDT's and HDT's to help decide if the HDT would work for us. Since we were not retired yet and we wanted the HDT to last us, we used a 10 year period and the 20k per year we were putting on the dually in a year.

We factored in things like oil changes, tires, repairs (based on our current dually and what it had needed and history of what the trucks typically needed) and typical resale value at the end of the 10 year period and 200k additional miles.

We used costs on this forum, racing junk  and on truck paper to get an idea of what various used trucks would cost. 

We figured the a dually after 200k would be nearing the end of its life so we only priced new to 1 year old. At that time the older ones would not handle the weight of the trailer.

The MDT's we did both new and used but we stuck with the higher horsepower ones as some had less than what our dually had and I was not comfortable in paying more for less.

For the HDT's, we stuck with used ones but with various mileages as we found that there was some logic to price vs mileage and trucks that had 750k and up we added the cost of an engine rebuild to them because another 200k would most likely put them in that category. At that time there were not too many buying new HDT's already set  up for RV use and Greg at RV haulers was not on the forum yet.

We did include the cost to add a bed but we also added cost to the dually for extra items like spare fuel tank etc.. to try to get them close to apples to apples.

As you can figure out, the HDT we bought won out in our case. So far we have only been averaging 10-15k per year so we were a little high on our estimate. In the 5 years we have owned our HDT, we have done a yearly oil change, had to replace an air dryer (which we did ourselves), replaced a starter before it died, had the AC worked on, replaced front brakes, replaced a windshield wiper arm (on a Sunday and the dealer was open and had it in stock) and just recently had to replace a cab air bag. We also built our bed ourselves and had to replace some dash pieces that we knew about when we bought the truck (actually bought the pieces from the Freightliner dealer that did the VIS inspection as they were reasonable and had them in stock).

Dave

[JPL]

On 7/15/2017 at 4:39 AM, GlennWest said:

The bed cost varies a lot. My 14' bed was 4k. Singling, installing hitch, relocated muffler, batteries, wheel stops, tie downs, etc 3k. They also installed the Jackolee. Then price of ET hitch. I forget exact but 4kish. But I'm a welder and add to it myself. You can buy a ready to tow unit from Gregg at RVHaulers. It will run you in ball park of your 550 prices but it is gone over head to toe. I have had my king pins replaced. An alternator, turn signal switch. That about all. 300k mileage, I believe, is still under warranty. Might be difficult to find. Not impossible. Pricey. 

TLWH   We have had our 610 for over 6 years and the Maintenance cost have been oil changes,filters, belts, overhead adjust, brakes, canisters, and drums. Probably 1500 to 2K. All the work was done here at home. We have only put 28k on the speedo. Mileage was between 8 &9. I now have a ECM issue and that will cost. We were towing with a 550 (1999) and was getting to be a money pit. the 610 is easier to maneuver than that 550. This truck is so much more comfortable. I can't help you with a spreadsheet but hope this helps.   Pat

 

 

The Old Sailor

[Jack Mayer]

One thing that was mentioned, but not really dwelled on by anyone is a short HDT that you use as a daily driver. 

You can get something built that will be about 23' long, or so. Have a decent size condo that can be used for overnights if required (but not as comfy as the large condo trucks). It really is no bigger than a CC dually for all practical purposes. And the modern trucks are outfitted very well and have automated trans. so, really, do you need a car too?

I used our 610 for three years as a daily driver. 182" wb. Six inches longer than my F550 (wb). I took it anywhere the F550 would go. And that truck did not have the modern amenities of current model HDTs. Not even close. Now, it would be way better. 

We happen to like our smart, but if I was going to change that up I'd seriously consider a daily driver HDT. 

We also towed doubles for eight years. I would not do that again. Personal choice. I MIGHT consider a Fiat inside a toyhauler designed to be dual carrier/living space. 

[TheLongWayHome]

Quote

One thing that was mentioned, but not really dwelled on by anyone is a short HDT that you use as a daily driver. 

 

Quote

1. Get a short WB HDT (singled), no hauler bed, just hitch and trailer lights for the 5th wheel. Then the options on a touring driver are the HDT, or a toad with it's own hitch (4 wheels down or dolly/trailer OK). Toad can also be used as a scout vehicle. Some concerns of "triple towing" and overall length. Sample below (sold, current owner unknown):-

OR

1. HDT with a long WB (keep twin rear axles) and long hauler bed, hauler bed with rear load and hitch, 5th wheel. Concerns: On the length of the HDT/RV. Limited availability in "ready made". RickW early sample below.

Thanks Jack. That is probably my preferred (for now!!) of the two options I proposed above. A few members here have or do use this approach. It give you the option to add a toad later if needed (and in the right states!). Have another member going with a VNR 400 (shorter nose) with 181" WB, which is about the length of a regular 5500/F-550 dually. Tuck the hitch in as tight as possible and you could pull a long trailer legally. All a toad as an option later or as you said, put one in a toy hauler. Lots of options!! 

 

[GlennWest]

Have to ask this. Those of you that tow doubles, how do you handle the additional pin box weight? Example, my Teton is 24k rating. Teton high of 20k. A Jeep, car, etc. Would go way over pin rating. Also seen plenty with upper frame cracks from gooseneck setups. Seems this would be more stress. 

[Grassy]

You are trying to compare apples and oranges.

If you are looking at a 5500/550 you are actually looking at a MDT or class 5. And HDTs are Class 7/8.

Both MDTs and HDTs have their pros and cons.

I am getting 11's mpg  with mine plus no extra vehicle is required to go to town so to speak.

Good luck on your hunt,