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Brake Controllers again - I'm learning this prodigy may not be the best setup


BlueLghtning

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Okay, I'm sure this subject has been discussed in length and beaten to death and I've been reading here about them - http://www.hhrvresource.com/node/69  which is a great resource and searching the forum on older threads, but some of that info on the forum maybe outdated, plus I want to make sure I'm understanding this correctly.

When I bought my 2000 Volvo 610, which was already being used to haul a horse trailer, it had a Tekonsha prodigy P2 brake controller in it. I figured it was nothing special, but the previous owner had been using it, so it should have worked for him. I'd see threads come up on brake controllers and the Jackalopee, but it wasn't one of the things I looked into because i figured it would work and I could upgrade later if I felt the need. Well, I finally got to tow for the first time the other day with my newly installed TS3 air ride hitch and things seemed okay as I was getting the hang of things and slowing down gracefully, but the first red light that caught me by surprise really showed me how little if anything the brake controller was helping with the trailer brakes. From reading more, I understand this is an inertia type brake controller meaning it's suppossed to sense when the truck is decelerating and help apply the brakes, but it seems these just don't work very well in HDT's, so I got that part. One of the things that confuses me though to make me wonder if I have other issues is this same brake controller in a pickup would at least show you some numbers when you hit the main brakes, even sitting still, I guess to show what level your braking would be if it was activated by inertia? In my truck, the brake controller shows ".c." for connected like it should and when I manually apply the tralier brakes using the lever on the device, I get the similar numbers I would see in a pickup, and going down the road and pressing tihs lever, I can feel the trailer slow me down, so i know they are working. However, under normal driving and slowing, nothing but the .c. ever appears on the dash which makes me think it's not activating the brakes at all? Should I atleast see some numbers on my display when I press the service brakes in the truck? I've tried the different gain and boost levels and nothing changes. So do I have another issue or is this normal on an HDT setup? BTW, my buddy has the same brake controller in his pickup, so we even hooked the trailer to his and it worked as described above and even swapped units, but nothing changed. 

So if this thing is working like others have experienced in an HDT, I'm definitely not happy with this setup and don't feel it is providing adequate braking assistance when needed. I'm certainly not ready to convert to something like the BluDot system, and it looks like the more popular maxbrake or breaksmart no longer exist, so does that only leave me with maybe the Hayes Air Actuated Electric Brake Controller or the Direct Link setup that communicates directly with the ECM which I like the idea of, but it is definitely a littlle pricier. I know the Hayes has to be plumbed into the air line to work, but what else needs to happen? Can I piggy back off existing wiring from the Prodigy to the trailer plug or do I have to start all over? It looks like the Direct Link hooks to the ECM with an adapter? I guess either way, you still have to tie into the wiring at the trailer plug.  

Do people ever upgrade from their MaxBrake or BrakeSmart and sell them? 

Thanks for helping on a subject I know has probably been hashed out a lot. 

Dan (Class of 2017) - 2012 Ram 3500 & 2005 Alpenlite Valhalla 29RK
Contact me at rvsolarconsulting.com or Two Wheel Ramblin

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https://www.etrailer.com/Brake-Controller/Hayes/HA100400C.html?feed=npn&gclid=Cj0KEQjwnPLKBRC-j7nt1b7OlZwBEiQAv8lMLE2x06pbNA20Xbe5z-kFOwwVEpkTTxcdmwho9v5DIt8aAovC8P8HAQ

You can use the existing signal wire.  I used my own power and ground though. It's not the best available, but it works.  

 

The Direct link is better.

The Blue Dot is best if you want to convert the trailer over to Disc, air over hydraulic. 

Alie & Jim + 8 paws

2017 DRV Memphis 

BART- 1998 Volvo 610

Lil'ole 6cyl Cummins

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Make sure you are getting a brake light signal to the controller. It sounds like yours is not being activated when the brakes are applied. I had that same controller on our Freightliner and it worked very well. Think about it for a minute. If the brakes activate on a pickup at a .3 G stop, they will work exactly the same at a .3 G stop in a HDT. Negative acceleration is the same no matter what vehicle you are driving.

Our new truck has a Direct Link controller and I do like it a LOT and prefer it over the Blue Dot system but you should be able to get what you have working for you.

2017 Kenworth T680
2015 DRV 38RSSA Elite Suites
2016 Smart Prime

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51 minutes ago, BlueLghtning said:

Okay, I'm sure this subject has been discussed in length and beaten to death and I've been reading here about them - http://www.hhrvresource.com/node/69 and searching the forum, but some of that info is outdated, plus I want to make sure I'm understanding this correctly.. 

Wanting to keep the Resource Guide up to date, exactly what did you find "outdated"? 

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It sounds like your Prodigy is not seeing a signal from the brake switch.  The easiest place to get it is the brake light wire in the Jackalopee and run a wire forward to the controller.  The Prodigy should work better in the HDT than the pickup because loaded you will have more inertia braking to start with.  The answer to your question about the BrakeSmart and MaxBrake is there really isn't anything better in an electric controller, so I don't see anyone upgrading. The DirecLinc is good but probably not superior.  

Nigel

2006 Volvo VNL 430, 2006 smart cabrio cdi, 2000 Triple E Topaz 30'

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FYI, you don't need the signal wire as it's just to activate the brake lights when you manually activate the controller. Most of us tap the air line for the Johnson valve and that would activate the lights anyway.

1999 Peterbilt 385 C12 430/1650 13spd

2006 Dodge 3500 DRW 4x4

2010 Hitchhiker Champagne 36 LKRSB

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5 minutes ago, Mark and Dale Bruss said:

Wanting to keep the Resource Guide up to date, exactly what did you find "outdated"? 

Sorry, my outdated was directed at some of the info I found on the forum as that data is stale once it's posted. The resource is good as it does say the maxbrake and brakesmart are both no longer available. What I was thinking in my mind was there anything else besides what was stated in the forums that maybe has changed. That resource is great and I'm glad it's there. 

Dan (Class of 2017) - 2012 Ram 3500 & 2005 Alpenlite Valhalla 29RK
Contact me at rvsolarconsulting.com or Two Wheel Ramblin

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12 minutes ago, GeorgiaHybrid said:

Make sure you are getting a brake light signal to the controller. It sounds like yours is not being activated when the brakes are applied. I had that same controller on our Freightliner and it worked very well. Think about it for a minute. If the brakes activate on a pickup at a .3 G stop, they will work exactly the same at a .3 G stop in a HDT. Negative acceleration is the same no matter what vehicle you are driving.

Our new truck has a Direct Link controller and I do like it a LOT and prefer it over the Blue Dot system but you should be able to get what you have working for you.

Okay, I was just going by what I read on the resource guide. Maybe my signal light isn't getting to the controller and that would make sense because I don't feel like the trailer brakes are helping me at all unless I manually activate them. I guess I can go ohm out some wires and see where I might have a problem.

We were supposed to leave Thursday to head out on our first trip, but it took a lot longer to get the hitch sorted than I expected and now that I can finally tow the trailer, I have to get tires on the 5th wheel and this brake controller sorted too, so we have cancelled our trip unfortunately for now. :( 

The good news is our house went under contract in 2 days on the market and we close on the 20th of this month! 

Dan (Class of 2017) - 2012 Ram 3500 & 2005 Alpenlite Valhalla 29RK
Contact me at rvsolarconsulting.com or Two Wheel Ramblin

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Blue,

Look up "Roadfitter" and pm him.  He has a brand new Maxbrake he wants to sell. I have one in my truck and it seems to work well.

2006 Volvo 780 "Hoss" Volvo D12, 465hp, 1650 ft/lbs tq., ultrashift

Bed Build by "JW Morgan's Custom Welding"

2017 DRV 39DBRS3

2013 Smart Passion Coupe "Itty Bitty"

 

"Don't go around saying the world owes you a living. The world owes you nothing. It was here first!"

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12 minutes ago, Nigel said:

It sounds like your Prodigy is not seeing a signal from the brake switch.  The easiest place to get it is the brake light wire in the Jackalopee and run a wire forward to the controller.  The Prodigy should work better in the HDT than the pickup because loaded you will have more inertia braking to start with.  The answer to your question about the BrakeSmart and MaxBrake is there really isn't anything better in an electric controller, so I don't see anyone upgrading. The DirecLinc is good but probably not superior.  

Nigel

So that's my next question. I've certainly read about the Jackalopee and understand it takes the different wiring of a truck and converts it to use with the trailer, but I'm not sure my truck has one? If it does I haven't found it. So it is possible to accomplish this previous owner tried to accomplish this a different way? 

Dan (Class of 2017) - 2012 Ram 3500 & 2005 Alpenlite Valhalla 29RK
Contact me at rvsolarconsulting.com or Two Wheel Ramblin

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3 minutes ago, SuiteSuccess said:

Blue,

Look up "Roadfitter" and pm him.  He has a brand new Maxbrake he wants to sell. I have one in my truck and it seems to work well.

Thanks I will do that! 

Dan (Class of 2017) - 2012 Ram 3500 & 2005 Alpenlite Valhalla 29RK
Contact me at rvsolarconsulting.com or Two Wheel Ramblin

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I used a Prodigy in my 610 for years and it was "adequate" when working as designed. So I'd say something is not right with yours. It performed around the same as the TruControl Gold. I ran that also for a number of years. I then switched to the BluDot and never looked back. But that is a major commitment. 

In your situation if you cannot get the Prodigy to work right I'd probably look first at the Directlink. Since your truck is a vintage it will work on. That should be a good long-term solution for you. Next down would be the Hayes. 

The Maxbrake is an excellent product, but I probably would not buy one since they are no longer made and I don't think you can get service on them....(is that right???).

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Jack,

No service on Maxbrake but I have an an extra one for spare parts given to me by HoneEagle. I figure if mine acts up RandyA or David Dixon would salivate at trying a fix. ?

2006 Volvo 780 "Hoss" Volvo D12, 465hp, 1650 ft/lbs tq., ultrashift

Bed Build by "JW Morgan's Custom Welding"

2017 DRV 39DBRS3

2013 Smart Passion Coupe "Itty Bitty"

 

"Don't go around saying the world owes you a living. The world owes you nothing. It was here first!"

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Jack you are right you don't have any support for MaxBrake but if you have an electrical guru (maybe like Randy) they can be repaired.  The failures I've heard of seem to be from overheating like sitting at the border for half an our with you foot on the brake or using the parking brake function on the controller.

Nigel

2006 Volvo VNL 430, 2006 smart cabrio cdi, 2000 Triple E Topaz 30'

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1 hour ago, CrazyCooter said:

FYI, you don't need the signal wire as it's just to activate the brake lights when you manually activate the controller. Most of us tap the air line for the Johnson valve and that would activate the lights anyway.

Actually a Tekonsha Prodigy P2 brake controller does need the brake light signal to operate.  The brake light is an enabler of the controller to provide trailer braking.  The MaxBrake and BrakeSmart controller do not need the brake light signal to activate braking, only to turn on the brake lights when the trailer brakes are being activated.

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Mark & Dale
Joey - 2016 Bounder 33C Tige - 2006 40' Travel Supreme
Sparky III - 2021 Mustang Mach-e, off the the Road since 2019
Useful HDT Truck, Trailer, and Full-timing Info at
www.dmbruss.com

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3 hours ago, Mark and Dale Bruss said:

Actually a Tekonsha Prodigy P2 brake controller does need the brake light signal to operate.  The brake light is an enabler of the controller to provide trailer braking.  The MaxBrake and BrakeSmart controller do not need the brake light signal to activate braking, only to turn on the brake lights when the trailer brakes are being activated.

x2 on that.  I have the P2 in both my mdt and my tahoe, works great in both.  Definitely the best I've had of many electric brake controllers over many years (considering "normal" off the shelf controllers, as opposed to something specialized for an hdt).  Works just as good in the big truck (ok, maybe not big to y'all) and the little truck.

From my experience it needs both the brake light signal (to turn the braking function "on") and it needs the inertia function to tell it how much to apply.  Up to your max setting.  And of course the slide will manually apply the trailer brakes.  In my experience neither of my units will turn on the vehicle brake lights with just the manual slide. 

One note a lot of folks don't think of when mounting a brake controller, it needs to be positioned where you can reach the manual lever WITH the seat belt locked up.  A lot of folks mount these things way down under the dash somewhere it is either convenient to wire or mount or just out of sight, but you need to be able to reach that slide for max braking in an emergency situation, and if it is under the dash and the seat belt locks, you are out of luck.  Not really the question in this thread, but I see that far too much.  on both my trucks it is sticking out of a dash recess just to the right of the steering wheel within easy reach.  Hopefully you will never need to make that reach when you are in a bad situation, but you only need once.

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4 hours ago, Mark and Dale Bruss said:

Actually a Tekonsha Prodigy P2 brake controller does need the brake light signal to operate.  The brake light is an enabler of the controller to provide trailer braking.  The MaxBrake and BrakeSmart controller do not need the brake light signal to activate braking, only to turn on the brake lights when the trailer brakes are being activated.

Yes correct! Nearly all of the electronic boxes require the signal wire. I was replying to Jim's post about being able to use the signal wire for the air Hayes controller. No signal wire required on the Hayes. It does however require a ground to the metal box if you want the red light to work in those plastic trucks most here drive! ;)

 

I have not had much luck with any of the "P" controllers in my LGT with trailers over about 9-10K. No matter how it was adjusted it was either too light or too aggressive.

1999 Peterbilt 385 C12 430/1650 13spd

2006 Dodge 3500 DRW 4x4

2010 Hitchhiker Champagne 36 LKRSB

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Thanks guys, I'll do some digging and figure this thing out! On motorcycle forums, I'm usually the one helping others. it's been awhile since i've been on the end of stuff I'm not familiar with, but glad you guys are here to help! 

Dan (Class of 2017) - 2012 Ram 3500 & 2005 Alpenlite Valhalla 29RK
Contact me at rvsolarconsulting.com or Two Wheel Ramblin

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19 minutes ago, CrazyCooter said:

I have not had much luck with any of the "P" controllers in my LGT with trailers over about 9-10K. No matter how it was adjusted it was either too light or too aggressive.

Agreed.  But that is true of any mass market controller.  My preferred method is to keep it adjusted to work well at a moderate braking level for normal driving situations.  At that point, yes, it is a little aggressive for nice easy stops like rolling slowly up to a light, but it is good for most situations and I can reach up to hit the slide if I need help for a panic stop.  As mentioned, I keep the controller within reach.

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Also read the directions on setting up the P2. I have one and will tell you. Its hard to get set up right. But when you do it will work. But if the settings are off just a little bit. It will work good using the hand switch. but feel as though its not working at all by your foot brake.

Pete

 

 


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10 hours ago, Pete Kildow said:

Also read the directions on setting up the P2. I have one and will tell you. Its hard to get set up right. But when you do it will work. But if the settings are off just a little bit. It will work good using the hand switch. but feel as though its not working at all by your foot brake.

Pete

Do you have a starting location to suggest? Where do you keep the gain dial, how about the boost button? 

Dan (Class of 2017) - 2012 Ram 3500 & 2005 Alpenlite Valhalla 29RK
Contact me at rvsolarconsulting.com or Two Wheel Ramblin

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Hey Dan.  Don't know if I can add much to the conversation that has not been said.  I can tell you I started with a Prodigy, then a Hayes and now a Brake Smart that needed a little TLC to work right.  All three work well, but the Brake Smart will tell you happy birthday and even give you a daily devotional that the others won't.  Seriously, if you want information about what is going on and the ability to customize your braking try to find a Brake Smart or newer Max Brake.  Especially true if you have electric/hydraulic disc brakes on your trailer.  I would not worry about no longer having any service support for these units.  You won't find affordable repair or support for the Prodigy or Hayes units either.  I've worked on the Brake Smart but not the Max Brake but suspect they use the same voltage controllers for the brake line.  The high current components are the most susceptible to failure.  Those devices are generic and can be ordered from one of several electronic device suppliers if the smoke should come out of them.  Major issues were noted earlier, they can be harmed by getting too hot, which occurs when you hold the brakes for a super long time - maybe 10 -15 minutes or more. If you are waiting for a long train while holding on a grade use your service brake.

The Max Brake Roadfitter has is brand new and priced right.  I looked at it at this year's ECR.  If you have trouble contacting him with a PM I have Ken's phone number.  PM me yours and I will call him and give it to him so you guys can hook up.

The Jackalope doesn't have any thing to do with brake control, but the brake light circuit in the Jackalope is convenient for making a needed tap.  If you are into rolling your own check the schematics for both the 3 relay and 4 relay converters in the Resource Guide.  I built the 3 relay unit eight years ago and haven't touched it since.  But if you are not into building your own I believe the Jackalope gives you a well built and serviceable turn-key box for a really fair price to control your trailer lights.

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"The Great White" - 2004 Volvo VNL670, D12, 10-speed, converted to single axle pulling a Keystone Cambridge 5th wheel, 40', 4 slides and about 19,000# with empty tanks.

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Guys,

His controller worked on his buddies truck and his buddies controller did not work on his truck. The issue has to be with his truck and I still think he doesn't have a brake light signal going to the controller. What he has will work just fine once he gets it wired up correctly.

2017 Kenworth T680
2015 DRV 38RSSA Elite Suites
2016 Smart Prime

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1 hour ago, GeorgiaHybrid said:

Guys,

His controller worked on his buddies truck and his buddies controller did not work on his truck. The issue has to be with his truck and I still think he doesn't have a brake light signal going to the controller. What he has will work just fine once he gets it wired up correctly.

Yeah I think that's the best place to start. The truck and trailer are in a nearby storage lot. I just need to get some time to play with it again. I honestly haven't spent much time with it yet. It's been crazy trying to get everything ready to get on the road all while I'm still working full time and living at Mom & Dad's temporarily while we wait to close on the sale of our house. It will be so nice once this is all behind us.  

Dan (Class of 2017) - 2012 Ram 3500 & 2005 Alpenlite Valhalla 29RK
Contact me at rvsolarconsulting.com or Two Wheel Ramblin

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