Anyone concerned about ELD mandates?

[peety3]

As I understand it, pretty soon the Feds are going to mandate Electronic Logging Devices on commercial rigs - essentially an attempt to use technology to prevent "cooking the logbooks". Anyone know if we'll end up with challenges getting HDTs to operate without an ELD after an RV conversion?

[Darryl&Rita]

Why? No CDL rules are applicable to RV usee.

[Big5er]

44 minutes ago, peety3 said:

As I understand it, pretty soon the Feds are going to mandate Electronic Logging Devices on commercial rigs - 

We are not commercial rigs.

And ELDs are not factory installed nor do they have anything to do with the physical operation of the vehicle.

[Scrap]

Its a good question to ask though because you'd think if there is a law for every driver for every truck made after Dec 18 it would be really highly integrated into the truck.  But the law wasn't written in technical depth enough for that to happen so there won't be much vehicle side changes - short of EPA/CARB 500K requirements vs making sure the (old) PGN's are there that an ELD needs (which are about 10 years behind the EPA/CARB reqs).  There is, however, a TMC standard coming out that will specify what an ELD connection is so at least all truck makers have a chance at getting it all the same when that happens.

That said, the ELD is really for the driver and not for the truck.  If you have your same truck day in and day out then yea it works great being all integrated and automatic but at the first hiccup you are going to wish you had your own unit just for you, your 7 day past, and just uses the truck to pull in what is required.  So long story short the world isn't quite ready for the truck to start limiting itself based on ELD status just yet.  There are still quite a few bumps to overcome.  So if you buy a truck built after December 18 it'll work just the same and it won't matter for now.

Not to change the subject, but the law that matters more to y'all is the stability control mandate for Aug 1.  Every truck made (minus the exemptions) after Aug 1 will be the hard one to single!

[Jack Mayer]

1 hour ago, Scrap said:

Not to change the subject, but the law that matters more to y'all is the stability control mandate for Aug 1.  Every truck made (minus the exemptions) after Aug 1 will be the hard one to single!

Since Volvo currently has VEST and other electronic "magic" tied into the ABS, etc, how is it going to complicate that over what it currently is?  Right now we have to have Volvo reprogram the systems. Will it change in any significant fashion?  Not questioning your statement - just asking for expansion...... 

[Scrap]

Right now even if that stuff is standard I'm sure there are order codes to delete it out.  After Aug 1 there's no deleting it and most everything tractor made will have it.  You'll still be able to get a new 4x2 straight truck so that is no problem.  And the technicals of the ESP you'll get pretty much doesn't change from now, which is why I've been distanced from it.  It is the backoffice where you get that reprogram that could be the problem.  I don't know much about it and what I did hear confused me so I got a little Chicken Little over it.  Will you be able to get that program for a VIN that wasn't legal to build at the time?  Or do you get programmed to a 4x2 with ESP and your body needs to be redesigned to conform to the ESP parameters?  Or do you hit it early and knock out as many trucks as you can before 4x2's are required with ESP (Aug 2019)?  Or do you send your body in for a set of parameters of your own and be certified good with ESP?  Or do all DROM trucks end up being pre-2017?  I don't know, but tractors are converted to straight trucks all the time so they ought to figure it out.  When your business is truck conversions that's where NHTSA registration and NTEA dues (and meetings) pay for themselves to make yourself be heard.  Don't let them (NHTSA) screw it up!

[beyerjf]

The changes to the industry and how it may impact the folks on this forum are more to the point. Our company started installing ELD's in January, I was one of the first. 6 months out now and I can speculate on the effects to the motoring public in general. 

Before the mandate approx 30% of the industry was equipped with the similar EOBR's, (Electronic on Board Recorders.) Those fleets who use them did so not only for HOS (Hours of Service) compliance but integrated in the systems were real time tracking and fleet optimization software, all needed when you may have as many as 20,000 tractors and 80,000 trailers to keep track of (Schneider National). 

Those drivers, and now all fleets are now "under the gun" to complete runs within the HOS regulations. Large fleets have wiggle room (repowering loads, drop yards etc) smaller fleets do not. There will soon be a relentless timed device on every instrument panel facing the driver literally every minute of the driving day. I now have to essentially "file a flight plan" mentally for every trip I accept, of course not knowing what the traffic and weather, changing customer demands, breakdowns or the myriad of other variables I cannot predict  in the next 1-5 days of the 500-2500 miles I will travel. Drivers in our fleet are reacting by driving at higher speeds, stopping for breaks at inferior locations and other negatives all dictated by maximizing time available on this artificial safety device. The land of unintended consequences is upon us.

You are going to see this on an increasing basis in your rear view mirror and your bumper. The Walmart driver who rear ended Tracy Morgan's limo bus, in addition to being up for 23 hours straight, had an EOBR that was telling him he had 29 minutes to get to his destination 25 miles away, or else get a warning letter from the Walmart safety dept, and possible discharge because of the strict enforcement of the HOS by large fleets, and now by fleets of all sizes. 

With paper logs, most drivers wouldn't intentionally evade the HOS, but would instead "adjust" the entries to accommodate the totally unpredictable logistical world we operate in . The Walmart driver above had the EOBR, it didn't stop him from getting into his truck at the beginning of his shift after he had already driven his personal car 600 mile from GA to DE to report to his terminal. 

I don't have a warm fuzzy feeling about these things. And don't even get me started about the stability controls, front and side mounted sonars and other nifty soon to be mandated devices that Scrap describes that all being substituted for good old fashioned driver judgement. 

 

[Scrap]

Heh, yea I'll admit that I have a couple of selfies in my phone with me at the gate with 1 and 3 minutes left on the countdown.  It's always the 14 that gets me for what we do (have to balance shop on duty time installing vs being out in the truck playing).  When we started the EOBR I remember thinking it was kind of nice not having to do the math, always having the number right there to glance at, having it do my "midnight" for me, not having a pile of logbooks everywhere, etc.  But after a couple months I noticed the same thing - everything is always right down to the friggen wire.  Gets a bit frustrating - and the dumbest part is sitting in my car in the parking lot talking to my tech on the phone instead of going in to help finish my truck together.  It's on duty as soon as I run my card in the door lock and starts cutting out of my 14.  It's a guaranteed phone argument every time.  Bosses answer?  Make him a truck driver too so now he can sit in his car and do it to me too....

 

[Scrap]

One piece of good news for you guys is the truck side ELD harness comes out late this fall.  Order it as an option or buy as a service part and in 5 minutes you have a 9 pin behind the dash to hook your DirecLink controller too.  Your diagnostic plug gets freedom again!

[GeorgiaHybrid]

LOL, I wonder if I could add another one to mine to hook some other goodies up to the system? Already have the one behind the glovebox for the DirecLink controller that you helped me with when we ordered the truck.

[beyerjf]

The JJ Keller system has a Y-cable so one 9 pin goes into the truck port and the other stays free for diagnostic use. Canada would have a conniption fit if they couldn't get to my 9 pin to check the speed limiter I have to have up there.....

[jeffw]

1 hour ago, beyerjf said:

The JJ Keller system has a Y-cable so one 9 pin goes into the truck port and the other stays free for diagnostic use. Canada would have a conniption fit if they couldn't get to my 9 pin to check the speed limiter I have to have up there.....

Do you keep the speed limiter set all the time (in the US) or do you get it programmed only when you're going to Canada?

[beyerjf]

The DD4 ECM on the Series 60 has a 2 part program. The first part the Canadian authorities can read, and it will tell them I am limited to 105 km/hr. The 2nd part of the program is called "safe pass", set of variables that is engaged by stepping down twice on the accelerator, which allows me to go to 120 km/hr for a certain percentage of the time. In my case I set it at 99%. The cruise control can still only do 105 km, which is fine with me, I don't need to go faster than 65 mph most of the time anyway. But I can go up to 75 mph as long as I wish. The original idea was to reward safe drivers in a given fleet dealing with governed trucks a chance to exceed the company limits for a short period of time. They were usually set for say 10% of the time. 

We charge our customers $150 per trip in and out of Ontario and Quebec for the reprogramming. I just pocket the money and leave it alone. I go into those 2 provinces maybe 10-15 times a year. The Canadian government was sure that all the provinces would enact similar legislation, it back fired badly. One of the most unpopular laws ever passed, contributing to untold road rage....

[jeffw]

Very interesting. I've always wondered how that worked in the real world.

We occasionally go to Mosport or Tremblant or Calabogie and the lines of trucks running all the same speed can be pretty epic. I've seen the road rage play out for sure.

[noteven]

with all due respect Jeff please say Ontario not "Canada" 

[jeffw]

Good point! Both of us Jeffs did that :-)

[noteven]

But wait... is Quebec doing this too? 

Are RV HDT's subject to the regulation? 

 

[Nigel]

Quebec and Ontario since January 2009.  RV exempt but probably not private truck.  Stay close to the speed limit and stay out of the scales and nobody will check.  I drove commercial in Ontario until 2015 and never had a truck checked.  I'm so used to it I didn't bother taking it off my truck as that is the limit on my trailer tires anyway.

 

Nigel

[beyerjf]

Since 2 Provinces have and enforce the law (our company almost lost it's hauling rights into Ontario and Quebec because drivers were not turning down their trucks) I elected to use the term Canadian, perhaps an incorrect usage, so I will write on the blackboard, oh wait, chalkboard 100 times.

All Provinces are not created equal so please don't refer to them that way. 

[Alie&Jim's Carrilite]

11 hours ago, beyerjf said:

Since 2 Provinces have and enforce the law (our company almost lost it's hauling rights into Ontario and Quebec because drivers were not turning down their trucks) I elected to use the term Canadian, perhaps an incorrect usage, so I will write on the blackboard, oh wait, chalkboard 100 times.

All Provinces are not created equal so please don't refer to them that way. 

 

Still got it wrong..... Your tablet needs to copy and paste it 200 times in rotating colors... red green blue yellow..  changing the font and spacing every other line...