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Quality VS Speed


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'piece work' is the enemy of quality.

when workers run from unit to unit slapping caulk and followed by the stapler the result is customer complaints, they expect the RV to be like their car.

The big 3 eliminated piecework in the '80s ,added robots for the work that damaged bodies. Can the RV industry do the same?

Will they ? or will a offshore company show the way?

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I sure never knew that the area was once band instrument capital! 

When you read about how the work is paid it sure explains a lot of the quality problems that show up soon after you buy an RV. I still believe that a part of the problem is also the fault of we customers because sales history shows that very few of us are willing to pay more to get better quality. While import cars did force the auto industry to find ways to improve quality and not increase prices excessively, it also cost US industry many of the better-paid manufacturing jobs and it continues to do so. I suspect that shipping costs are the main reason that has not yet happened in the RV industry. 

Good travelin !...............Kirk

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Quality vs speed.  Payroll will kill any company.  So it is a fine line to get the quality that is wanted in a cost effective manor.  Personally I think a lot of manufacturers are moving to fast and cutting corners.  If they just slowed down a little bit, they would save a TON in warranty work.  I would think that would even bring there costs down over all, even though they might be paying the factory workers a little more per unit.

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I would love to see some foreign competition.  I suspect this is indeed similar to the 60s auto industry.  Most of what is produced is poorly engineered and of marginal quality.  Some serious competition is needed to shake up the industry.  That is not going to happen with no outside competition and strong sales.

I cannot see blaming the customer.  Buying an RV is tough.  First many people have limited experience and don't really know what they want or what to look for.  The choices are staggering with different sizes, styles, and floor plans all of which fit greatly different styles of RV use.  Then there are the colors and décor and options and choices of countertops, etc, etc.  Pricing is even more bewildering harking back to the old days of sleazy car sales where no one really knows what is reasonable.  There are plenty of options and add on costs.  I don't see that somewhere in this process the customer decides how to balance costs and quality.  They don't even see much of the quality issues which are behind the skin of the RVs.  Does the consumer know that the welds were not done right or the engineering was not sound or corners were cut?  Not usually.  About all a potential buyer can try to do is ask others.  Many of those they ask don't have much knowledge either. 

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I think China will save the American RV industry.

I agree with those above that feel that the RV industry is in the same position that the American auto industry was in the 60's and 70's.  Competition is what will cause American RV manufacturers to produce a better product.  That competition won't come from Europe, Japan or S.Korea because of lack of open space.  The competition will come from China.  China is going through an explosion in their economy even greater than the industrial revolution of years ago in the West.  Like the US, China has vast areas with a sparse population.  As their middle class population grows, RV's will be something they will want to travel their country in.  And it's just a guess, but they will probably not be interested in the RV's that American companies produce.  As their RV industry establishes itself, it will become a competitor to our RV industry and as long as some semblance of free trade exists it will force our industries to compete.  

Jim

      

 

 

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Don't forget China already makes many of the RV parts and appliances.  That makes it relatively easy for them to build units from scratch.  It is a completely separate issue but I am also hoping China will enter the camera market.  The big makers such as Canon need a good shaking.  Personally I think China will enter both industries fairly soon.  Cameras will be first.

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51 minutes ago, Five Wood said:

I think China will save the American RV industry.    

How? Do you seriously believe that China will start exporting RV's to the US or vice versa? There is money to be made exporting cars, but the numbers will never make it profitable for RV's. 

  • In 2016, RV shipments totaled 430,691 units, a gain of 15.1% over the previous year. This was the seventh consecutive annual increase.
  • According to the tracking company Autodata, 16.5 million new autos hit the streets — the highest number since the record of 16.94 million in the prerecession days of 2006.

The difference in numbers alone would prohibit exporting RV's. It's just not cost effective to import/export overseas to try and compete for a "share" of 400,000 units. Now a "share" of 16 million.....

The US RV industry to going to produce what the people are willing to pay for and the people will continue to buy the junk offered because it is what they can afford and there is no competition. That is why all the high end RV builders of yester-year are out of business. New Horizon, Spacecraft, and possibly DRV (the bottom end of that scale) are the only ones left. A "nice" and supposedly well built DRV will cost you a hundred and a half. How many RV'ers are out buying anything that costs in excess of a hundred thousand dollars? They want "light" and "inexpensive". Neither of those features leave any room for profits when shipped from China. 

 

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1 minute ago, JimK said:

Don't forget China already makes many of the RV parts and appliances.  That makes it relatively easy for them to build units from scratch.  It is a completely separate issue but I am also hoping China will enter the camera market.  The big makers such as Canon need a good shaking.  Personally I think China will enter both industries fairly soon.  Cameras will be first.

China may make "parts" and cameras which can be shipping by the containers load, but they don't ship frames, walls or complete units over here. It's the same with TV's from Korea (Samsung?), Mexico and Japan (Sony?) I can mail a camera from the US to China for a few dollars. If there were a million units or so I might agree with you  but again, I think the numbers just aren't there for imported RV's.

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1 hour ago, Big5er said:

How? Do you seriously believe that China will start exporting RV's to the US or vice versa? There is money to be made exporting cars, but the numbers will never make it profitable for RV's. 

 

As the Chinese RV markets develops, I would think they will enter our market in the same way Japan entered our auto market with Honda and Toyota or in the tractor market with Kubota.  They will open a few dealerships, ship the product over at a loss just to gain a foothold in the market and as America comes to see that it is a good product and demand grows, they will then open manufacturing facilities in the US, and the rest is history.  It's the same plan used by BMW, VW and on and on.  And I think it's a good thing.  Outside competition will improve our RV industry the same way it improved our auto industry and many other industries.  

I probably won't be around long enough to see the change, but you are younger and I hope you see it.   

 

Jim

 

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I'm not so sure about the Chinese even being interested in the US RV market. Some years back they tried the Australian market where RV prices are way higher than the USA. But they never succeeded. Even they couldn't balance quality and price. Australia has seen an influx of 4x4's and pickups from China. While much cheaper they haven't cracked the market. Yet!!

The US market won't change until buyers are prepared to pay for quality. And that won't happen while the bulk of the market is for 'weekend' use RVs. That market is very price sensitive. Thus low price = low quality.

If the RV industry had a lemon law then maybe something will change. Until then nothing will change.

As an aside - many years ago we camped beside an elderly couple in a very cheap 5th wheel. She wanted to RV. He didn't. So he purchased a cheap RV in the hope it would put her off and give him something to do with his tools. So maybe we should see RVing in a new light. As a hobby for handy folks.

regards

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3 hours ago, bruce t said:

 

As an aside - many years ago we camped beside an elderly couple in a very cheap 5th wheel. She wanted to RV. He didn't. So he purchased a cheap RV in the hope it would put her off and give him something to do with his tools. So maybe we should see RVing in a new light. As a hobby for handy folks.

regards

I like that.

Jim

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4 hours ago, bruce t said:

.........

The US market won't change until buyers are prepared to pay for quality. ........

Maybe it is just wishful thinking to believe the Chinese will enter the RV market and shake it up.  Unfortunately I do not see the buyers changing the manufacturing practices and improving quality.  Again, I think back to the car industry in the 60s.  Some buyers wanted more.  They paid a premium for a Cadillac or Lincoln.  They got more chrome and status but the cars were built with the same parts and processes as the cheaper choices.  I don't see how "buyers are prepared to pay for quality".  Do they want into a dealership and tell the salesman they are willing to spend more to get a quality RV?  Does the buyer have any feasible way to access the quality of the RV they are buying?  Is there any correlation between the price they pay and the quality of the unit?

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4 hours ago, JimK said:

Does the buyer have any feasible way to access the quality of the RV they are buying?  Is there any correlation between the price they pay and the quality of the unit?

To a degree, there is a correlation, but only within limits. It is pretty safe to assume that the lowest priced units are not as quality as those at the top of the price range, but you can't always say that all of those at the top are of high quality. The RV Consumer Group has done a great deal to educate the RV buyers and that has helped a little but you just can't educate those who are not interested or who don't realize the need. There are tell-tale signs that any layman can learn to look for which give strong hints about the level of quality of the construction, but even some of the best materials are at times used in construction that has little quality control to keep workmanship up. 

It is pretty safe to assume that when you buy a coach from Marathon , Prevost , or Newell you will get a high-quality coach but as you come down the price scale the quality control in the factory also disappears. 

Good travelin !...............Kirk

Full-time 11+ years...... Now seasonal travelers.
Kirk & Pam's Great RV Adventure

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Will folks pay for quality? Simple answer is no. Where's Teton? Travel Supreme? King of the Road? etc etc etc. You can always find 'cheap' RV's but try looking for a quality unit. It's what I call the WalMart factor.

regards

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Don't convince yourself a high price tag equates high quality. Airstreams are a compromise, in the same vein as Harley-Davidson. If you can afford one, and want one, go ahead. Both manufacturers have had several owners, with varying levels of quality, and customer satisfation.

I have been wrong before, I'll probably be wrong again. 

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1 hour ago, JimK said:

I have never heard of most of those RVs.  Airstream is the well known as very expensive and high quality.  I understand they are swamped with orders.  At least some people are willing to spend a lot.

How about Carriage, Hitchhiker, Excel? Heard of any of those? Along with the brands mentioned by Bruce T these were high quality, solid units. But they were more expensive and heavier than the mass-produced units, and failed to compete over the long haul. 

So there were certainly quality units out there, but the additional cost and lack of "sparkly things" led folks to choose cheaper units.  It wasn't really that difficult to determine which were the quality units, either by utilizing the resource that Kirk mentioned (RV Consumer Group) or by doing some homework by reading forums, manufacturers specifications, etc. And yes, there was a correlation between the quality of those units and their price. 

Airstream has been an niche market for decades. I can't count the number of folks I know who have never RV'ed or even looked at RV's, but they know that they would want an Airstream if they ever did. And people will pay dearly for that name...

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11 hours ago, JimK said:

I have never heard of most of those RVs.

 

That just tells us that you haven't been into RVs for very long. You could add others like Revcon, Superior, and National RV. 

11 hours ago, JimK said:

Airstream is the well known as very expensive and high quality.  I understand they are swamped with orders. 

There used to be some truth to that statement and the high price part is still true. In fact, that is the highest priced new RV available in the US today. A 16' model that you can pay $46K for! The most accurate description of them is:

10 hours ago, Darryl&Rita said:

Airstreams are a compromise, in the same vein as Harley-Davidson. If you can afford one, and want one, go ahead.

1

 

Good travelin !...............Kirk

Full-time 11+ years...... Now seasonal travelers.
Kirk & Pam's Great RV Adventure

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When people ask me - and they do - why a New Horizon costs so much I usually tell them "You get what you pay for...."  and then amplify from there. And you do. It is just that most people are not willing to pay for higher quality, let alone custom higher quality.  The difference between a higher quality unit and lower quality units is in infrastructure, mainly. And quality of materials used in the interior. And lastly, the craftsmanship.

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I've pretty much only owned rv's recognized as "higher quality" in the middle price segment - Bigfoot, Snowbird, Travelaire, Roughneck, Carriage...  always had decent service from "higher quality" units  bought used in good cared for condition ... but I don't care as much for the glitz factor as the workmanship ... oh look 4 of those makes are Canadian built :)

Our market in Canada is full of foreign built (USA) cheaper priced rv's that our small market manufacturers compete with. 

Most rv mfg is done using methods and materials quickly trained workers can slap together. 

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12 hours ago, mptjelgin said:

How about Carriage, Hitchhiker, Excel? Heard of any of those? Along with the brands mentioned by Bruce T these were high quality, solid units. But they were more expensive and heavier than the mass-produced units, and failed to compete over the long haul. 

So there were certainly quality units out there, but the additional cost and lack of "sparkly things" led folks to choose cheaper units.  It wasn't really that difficult to determine which were the quality units, either by utilizing the resource that Kirk mentioned (RV Consumer Group) or by doing some homework by reading forums, manufacturers specifications, etc. And yes, there was a correlation between the quality of those units and their price. 

Airstream has been an niche market for decades. I can't count the number of folks I know who have never RV'ed or even looked at RV's, but they know that they would want an Airstream if they ever did. And people will pay dearly for that name...

It isn't JUST the name.   The fact is that the shell of an Airstream will outlast almost anything else on the road.  There is no rusting, and no delamination of the shell (frame is a different story). 

Properly maintained, it is quite feasible to expect 30 years plus of service.   That isn't always the case with RV's constructed using "more modern" materials.   Yes, we make compromises in terms of space to get what we perceive as a longer lasting unit.

To each their own.   Happy travels!

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I know virtually nothing about trailers except I see lots and lots of different models and manufacturers represented in campgrounds and on the road.  My interest has been truck campers.  I have read reviews, talked with owners and looked at discussions on the forums.  I have even toured a couple of the factories.  There are only a handful of manufacturers of any size and maybe another handful of mom and pops.  Even so I could not begin to sort out manufacturers based on quality.  I have never seen anything approaching the Consumer Reports of truck campers.  Reviews tend to be about features.  Owner comments seems to fall into two camps.  Owners like to justify their purchases.  Other owners have had a problem and want to vent. 

I suppose I could try to access quality by a thorough examination but I am not sure that would be very reliable.  Looking at accessories and parts is not very helpful.  Most appliances are similar and manufacturers only have so many choices.  

My RV dealer has been my biggest source of input on quality.  He only handles truck campers, has been a RV dealer for many years and is a fanatic.  He is an exception in the field in being very honest.  Honest or not, his issues with manufacturers as a dealer are different from mine as an owner. 

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