jcsteele Posted June 21, 2017 Author Report Share Posted June 21, 2017 Thank DT, I was actually already planning on that when I get home!! Great minds think alike! :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoDirectionHome Posted June 21, 2017 Report Share Posted June 21, 2017 Or just click http://www.bronzebushings.com/amfinder/?find=1--oil-impregnated-sae-841-sintered-bronze-inch-flanged-1--1-2-1--3-4-1--1-2-2-3-32-ff-1704-4-169480 "There are No Experts, Do the Math!" 2014 Freightliner Cascadia DD16 600hp 1850ft-lb 18spd 3.31 260"wb SpaceCraft S-470 SKP #131740 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix2013 Posted June 21, 2017 Report Share Posted June 21, 2017 jc, bronze bushings do not perform well in an application where there is impact combined with only partial rotation (such as swing arms). They like to see 360 degree rotation and no impact, otherwise they will work flow and become egg shaped in ID. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcsteele Posted June 21, 2017 Author Report Share Posted June 21, 2017 1 minute ago, phoenix2013 said: jc, bronze bushings do not perform well in an application where there is impact combined with only partial rotation (such as swing arms). They like to see 360 degree rotation and no impact, otherwise they will work flow and become egg shaped in ID. That was my limited understanding of bronze bushings as well.... thanks for the confirmation!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkennell Posted June 21, 2017 Report Share Posted June 21, 2017 1 hour ago, phoenix2013 said: jc, bronze bushings do not perform well in an application where there is impact combined with only partial rotation (such as swing arms). They like to see 360 degree rotation and no impact, otherwise they will work flow and become egg shaped in ID. Is THAT why the pivots on idler arms on combine belt tension pulleys wear out so fast!? Add an offset load, and they wear crooked real fast. Then the pulley sits in at an angle, then the belt runs off.... Steel to steel and grease @ 10 hours---never have an issue with those pivots, come to think of it. I've always found it extremely interesting that sometimes WOOD is the best bearing material! I know of one application...rotary motion, slow speed (10 rpm) , fairly large surface, low load, lots of dirt. Wood blocks lasted for 5-6000 hours--with NO grease or anything. Didn't really wear the shaft much either. The company tried replacing the "old fashioned wood" with greasable cast aluminum blocks, bronze bushings, & seals. Had to be greased every day and lasted < 1000 hours. Everybody took them back off and put wood back on. Not to mention the wood cost $20...the other $200. Isn't engineering FUN? No camper at present. Way too many farm machines to maintain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix2013 Posted June 21, 2017 Report Share Posted June 21, 2017 jkennel, one industry that had a bitch of a time with this problem was the excersize equipment manufacturers, since most of that machinery moves over some angle and not fully around. The solution was composite bushings. But there is a lot of engineering that goes into that because there are multitude of composite materials and performance specs to choose from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dollytrolley Posted June 21, 2017 Report Share Posted June 21, 2017 On 6/19/2017 at 6:58 PM, 13speed said: Is there anyone on this forum that is not a damn Engineer Henry and I were literally talking about that earlier this afternoon and I told him I am just a dumb truck driver and cannot possibly keep up with all of you super brainiacs Maybe after I pay for my hitch I can talk him in to making me a honorary Engineer wannabe PS, A ET will be a bit more than 2-3K......just sayin Shucks 1 3........you don't want to be a E n G i N e A r........all the girlz will giggle at you and a lot of you try to do will end up in the dumpster (per Henry posts) and IF.........Just IF......by chance you stumble and get anything to halfa$$ to work......some darn geezer here will come up with 13 ways to "improve" what you did to make it work.........trust me 1 3 , your far better to be president than being a engineer ........few folks like engineers...... Drive on..........(better to be a geezer than.........E n G i N e A r.) 97 Freightshaker Century Cummins M11-370 / 1350 /10 spd / 3:08 /tandem/ 20ft Garage/ 30 ft Curtis Dune toybox with a removable horse-haul-module to transport Dolly-The-Painthorse to horse camps and trail heads all over the Western U S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
13speed Posted June 22, 2017 Report Share Posted June 22, 2017 8 hours ago, Dollytrolley said: Shucks 1 3........you don't want to be a E n G i N e A r........all the girlz will giggle at you and a lot of you try to do will end up in the dumpster (per Henry posts) and IF.........Just IF......by chance you stumble and get anything to halfa$$ to work......some darn geezer here will come up with 13 ways to "improve" what you did to make it work.........trust me 1 3 , your far better to be president than being a engineer ........few folks like engineers...... Drive on..........(better to be a geezer than.........E n G i N e A r.) But you guys have such big brains....like the alien guys in "Mars Attacks", How can I not be jealous? As far as being President....I don't think I could do any worse than the current guy...few folks like him either Chris, Tracey, Aria & Lola 2018 Volvo VNR 400, D13 I-Shift 2018 NH 48' Majestic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoDirectionHome Posted June 22, 2017 Report Share Posted June 22, 2017 This is an example of where You don't have to engineer anything. Speak to an engineer at a supplier and let them specify a solution for you. There are multiple places where you can apply this practice. "There are No Experts, Do the Math!" 2014 Freightliner Cascadia DD16 600hp 1850ft-lb 18spd 3.31 260"wb SpaceCraft S-470 SKP #131740 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sculptor Posted June 22, 2017 Report Share Posted June 22, 2017 On 6/20/2017 at 11:12 PM, jcsteele said: at least in my brain, so far the only thing I can't get ironed out is an adequate pivot material... I would make it greasable but I am trying to find an adequate hardened bushing in the 1.5" to 2" ID size range. My 2 cents of encouragement: http://websales.amtektool.com/viewitems/ejector-pins-blanks-sleeves-bushings/shoulder-bushings Kevin and June 2013 Volvo VNL 730 D13 Eco-Torque @ 425 Ratio 2.47 2014 DRV 36TKSB3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALLOY Posted June 22, 2017 Report Share Posted June 22, 2017 Who's keeping track of the hours.......... 2011 Cameo 34SB3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix2013 Posted June 22, 2017 Report Share Posted June 22, 2017 Product developments is the most expensive task corporations undertake. R & D departments usually consume anywhere from 10-15% of the corporate budget. In start-up companies it's 100% of the budget until you have something to sell and then you are suppose to get it all back in 2-3 years selling the stuff. It's known as ROI, Return On Investment. Most of the time it doesn't happen, the original developer gets replaced by a management team that knows how to make money, they might keep him around or he looses the whole thing. I spent my whole life doing this. Real companies with real R & D department, that had to pay guys like me, will set aside $100K on product development that will end up with a $500-1,000 product, $250K to come up with $3,000-4,000 product. Military is different, A system that went into 11 navy ships I was designing had a budget of $18 million. I spent three months designing the ET and $6,500 out of pocket, the guy I was working for then (I saw him in the mirror) payed me nothing for my time (the cheap bastard). Considering what my engineering pay grade was at the time, I don't believe ROI has been met yet, 10 years later. Although I'm hoping that shortly I might claim that I earned $5 bucks an hour for the effort. Why did I do it? Because, I'm an ornery old bastard, because I could, because I was retired then and had ton of free time on my hand, I was bored and needed a challenge and there was that nagging question of the old age, do I still have the stones, coohones, etc., etc., ............................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJohns Posted June 22, 2017 Report Share Posted June 22, 2017 You tell then Henry! Go Henry!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 2002 Beaver Marquis Emerald C-12 Cat 505 HP 2014 Volvo 630 D-13 I Shift SOLD 2017 New Horizons SOLD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VegasFlyer Posted June 23, 2017 Report Share Posted June 23, 2017 16 hours ago, NoDirectionHome said: This is an example of where You don't have to engineer anything. Speak to an engineer at a supplier and let them specify a solution for you. There are multiple places where you can apply this practice. Ummmm, that might work in a few instances, but highly doubtful that you would get any useful information for a product as complicated as an air hitch. As a couple examples of what I am talking about, what sort of load factors are you going to design to? What sort of force is a (10,000, 20,000 or whatever capacity trailer load you are designing to), going to place on the load carrying arms or pivot components, such as Heim joints, in a fore and aft plane, with the fifth wheel at it's maximum travel limits in a vertical plane. For rub bar material selection, what sort of lateral forces could you reasonably predict that the fifth wheel plate will exert on the rub rail material while the fifth wheel is moving in a vertical plane, such as reacting to a bump in the road, with high lateral loading in a tight corner with braking forces applied. It may not seem that complicated to some folks and as expressed on here already, plenty of folks have already built there own version of a hitch. Still it is important to remember that we are talking about something that is imperative to be sound and safely built. At a minimum, if you poorly design it, you will go through a lot of raw material perfecting your design. Or blow through consumables such as heims that wear out in a couple hundred miles. John Southern Nevada 2008 Volvo 780, D13, I-Shift 2017 Keystone Fuzion 420 Toyhauler 2017 Can-Am Maverick X3-RS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyA Posted June 24, 2017 Report Share Posted June 24, 2017 On 6/21/2017 at 8:44 AM, phoenix2013 said: jc, bronze bushings do not perform well in an application where there is impact combined with only partial rotation (such as swing arms). They like to see 360 degree rotation and no impact, otherwise they will work flow and become egg shaped in ID. Which is also why the wet bolt bushings used on a 5'er leaf spring suspension still wear out so quickly - forget about the plastic things that come OEM. Lippert came out with composite bushings (Never Fail) a few years back to replace the bronze. Kinda pricey but I bought a set. Much to my amazement they looked like new when I checked a few weeks back (6,000 miles of use) and they require no greasing. If you have a Volvo or other HDT with leaf springs on the front there is a similar problem with the front spring eye bolts. To help counteract the egg wear problem Volvo wants us to grease those points with the front wheels off the ground. Henry showed us a new bushing for the ET at the ECR a couple of years back using the TrailerSaver bushing wear issue as an example. I still remember...... amazing! (not just the bushing - remembering the presentation is also amazing.) Randy, Nancy and Oscar "The Great White" - 2004 Volvo VNL670, D12, 10-speed, converted to single axle pulling a Keystone Cambridge 5th wheel, 40', 4 slides and about 19,000# with empty tanks. ARS - WB4BZX, Electrical Engineer, Master Electrician, D.Ed., Professor Emeritus - Happily Retired! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix2013 Posted June 24, 2017 Report Share Posted June 24, 2017 The composites came a long way and are making their way into heavy industrial machinery, shaft diameters up to 3 inches. The ones I use in the ET will work from -212 F to +482 F and are rated at 26,000 pounds per square inch or 82,000 pounds per each bearing installed. There are 14 of them in the ET, 10 in the hitch and 4 in the Super Binkley head. In case you guys are wondering why "other" hitches or "home made ones" are cheaper than an ET. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Av8r3400 Posted June 24, 2017 Report Share Posted June 24, 2017 ...and it's a very impressive unit! Looking at mine closely it's very impressively built. To bad more things aren't built with the same amount of pride. Av8r34002012 Volvo VNL 730 D13 iShift & 2021 Grand Design Momentum 397TH I'd rather die trying to live - Than live trying not to die. -Leonard Perry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix2013 Posted June 26, 2017 Report Share Posted June 26, 2017 Do you have a camera on the hitch so you can see what's going on when your are pulling? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Av8r3400 Posted June 26, 2017 Report Share Posted June 26, 2017 21 minutes ago, phoenix2013 said: Do you have a camera on the hitch so you can see what's going on when your are pulling? Not yet. It's on the list. I really like the cab-cam setup that fits into the dash. I will do one of these eventually. I can see the front of the trailer in the mirrors moving with the road bumps. Av8r34002012 Volvo VNL 730 D13 iShift & 2021 Grand Design Momentum 397TH I'd rather die trying to live - Than live trying not to die. -Leonard Perry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix2013 Posted June 26, 2017 Report Share Posted June 26, 2017 I'm after more videos with the new up motion limiters. It a very "gentle" hitch in normal operation, you should see the motion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Av8r3400 Posted June 26, 2017 Report Share Posted June 26, 2017 Okay. I read you. I have an action cam that I will put on it while towing and send you the video. See my YouTube channel... Av8r34002012 Volvo VNL 730 D13 iShift & 2021 Grand Design Momentum 397TH I'd rather die trying to live - Than live trying not to die. -Leonard Perry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HERO Maker Posted June 26, 2017 Report Share Posted June 26, 2017 Cool video! Thanks. Rocky & Sheri Rhoades '01 Volvo 770 2016 DRV Mobile Suites, HoustonHERO Makers Ministry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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