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Another HDT Insurance Woes Story (Long)


RandyA

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I have been insured by Blue Sky for the past five years.  When I learned that they were not renewing any of our current policies I began following the various comments in threads associated with obtaining insurance from other company's for our HDT vehicles.

My Blue Sky HDT/5th wheel policy was initially brokered through an agent at RV America (Brown & Brown).  The policy had an expiration date of August 29th, 2017.  Knowing we would be traveling in Canada on the expiration date I decided I had best get busy and find another insurer now rather than waiting until the last minute.

I first spoke with an agent at RV America  who responded that Progressive was the only company they had that was willing to write a policy for a HDT and that it would only do so if it was bundled with coverage on the 5th wheel.  I would only be allowed to use the Volvo without the trailer for fueling and maintenance.  When I attempted to ask some questions I was cut off and quickly told “…that is the way things are and no one was writing insurance for our kind of vehicle outside of a commercial policy.”  I felt his response and voice tone bordered on being rude, quickly determined I did not want to do business with them anyway, thanked him for his time and ended the inquiry.

Based on various positive reports from forum contributors I then attempted to get in contact with Chris Yust.  Unfortunately, according to her voice mail message, she was traveling in Canada and unable to take calls. 

Since I couldn't get in touch with Chris, I made a call to Thum Insurance.  I was connected to Shawn Kiiskila that took my information and responded the next day with a quote from National General.  After reviewing the quote I asked why loss of personal items was not included on the Volvo since we carry a lot of our personal items in the Volvo rather than the fiver.  His reply was that the coverage was not available since the Volvo was not self contained and thus not considered a RV by the underwriters.  I responded that the Volvo was indeed self contained and provided Shawn with a number of photos showing how it met the requirements.  He proceeded to get another quote from National General with the Volvo identified as a fully self contained “Toter Home.”  He sent me an email back yesterday notifying me that National General would not insure the Volvo because it was now considered a fully self contained Toter Home.  When I asked if we could go back to the first quote that I was given earlier he told me no.  He said that National General had “red flagged” the Volvo VIN along with my name and they would not honor the original quote or any future requests for a new quote.  Needless to say this created a significant level of concern on my part since I thought we were simply exploring a different vehicle option in hopes of getting better coverage and possibly a lesser price.  I had no idea that the questions would backfire the way they did.

I then called Chris's number again and got the same "traveling in Canada" message.  Feeling somewhat panicked from the response from Thum I left a message that I really needed to talk to her and to please call me as soon as possible.

Felling rather desperate, I decided to call National General directly without going through an agent hoping that I could explain myself out of the toter home mess.  I was connected to Liz and explained all that had transpired.  She indicated that my story was probably a non-issue and there was no record she could access of the reply to the agent from Thum.  I then gave her all the needed vehicle and driver information she would need to give me a quote.  She put me on hold and returned after a few minutes telling me that underwriting would approve a policy on the Volvo/5'er combination and that she found nothing that would indicate a “red flag” on my VIN or name.  After asking me some more questions she determined that I would require full-timer coverage since we were typically out more than six months in a given year.  I thought this was going to be a real budget buster.  But, as it turned out I was able to get better liability coverage as a full timer than I would have as a shorter term camper.  As a full-timer I could get the insurance based on the state of vehicle registration rather than the state where we owned either one of our brick and sticks properties.  Surprisingly, the cost was in line with the first quote I had obtained from Thum.  There were no restrictions on driving the Volvo bobtail.  So, I accepted the coverage and paid the annual premium.  I had my policy and insurance cards via Internet within 10 minutes.

Chris did call me back later that night.  But, I had already secured insurance directly from National General so my "emergency" had passed.  Chris told me National General was the only company she had that would write a policy on a Volvo and I most likely had the best price and coverage I would get even if I used her as an agent.  She did indicate that she could review the policy and coverage with me after she returned to the US in late October.  I thanked her for the quick response.


If there is a lesson or heads-up in this story it is NOT to even consider asking about going the fully self contained HDT vehicle or toter home route.  The second is that if you still own a brick and sticks property and opt for regular RV coverage but stay out more than 6 months a year a claim could be denied due to providing false information.  After that warning, I was very careful to answer all questions accurately.  Lastly, more and more underwriters are apparently unwilling to write a policy for anything larger than a 1-ton pick-up.  With the exception of some HDT’ers getting policies from home-town or state specific insurers it appears that National General is the only company left that will provide insurance for our vehicles and allow bob tailing without being required to purchase a commercial policy.  I know little about underwriting and how they determine specific risk factors, but I suspect that there is some sort of (flawed?) computer software algorithm in use that has flagged us as high risk.  Apparently, human reasoning and understanding of how HDT’s and even MDT’s as a whole are actually safer tow vehicles than an undersized pick-up pulling a possibly overloaded trailer has been replaced by by a new algorithm that only looks at our vehicle’s size and weight.   I believe our insurance future is looking bleak. If National General should decide to follow in the footsteps of National Interstate, Blue Sky, State Farm and other companies that once offered us insurance a large number of us will be literally screwed.

 

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Randy, Nancy and Oscar

"The Great White" - 2004 Volvo VNL670, D12, 10-speed, converted to single axle pulling a Keystone Cambridge 5th wheel, 40', 4 slides and about 19,000# with empty tanks.

ARS - WB4BZX, Electrical Engineer, Master Electrician, D.Ed., Professor Emeritus - Happily Retired!

 

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At what point does the HDT community consider going the self-insured route, or has this homework already been completed?

2012 F350 KR CC DRW w/ some stuff
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Cindy and Tom, Kasey and Maggie (our Newfie and Berner)
Oh...I forgot the five kids.

 

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Well I talked to different agent at Thum perhaps that is the difference. At any rate glad you got insurance that is the main thing. One Escapee Member said he got a letter and a follow up phone call saying he would not be covered bobtail by National General. I like you had the opposite response but if I am bobtailing I am always going to get fuel!!!!!! Of course this is not the first time we have gotten different responses depending on who you talk to at these insurance company's. I have heard there is only National General but others say there is 4 companies that will. Perhaps that depends on the state you live in as I know that made a difference in the past.

If we cannot find insurance other than commercial will have to rethink the whole thing about HDT/5er. Wife says getting older and maybe time to look into a DP instead. I told here when I get old I will; what is the saying "getting older is mandatory but growing up is optional" if that be the case I will never grow up. 

2019 Thor Chateau 28E on a Ford E450 chassis. Maybe awhile but will get a new picture forgive one up there it is my old rig.

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Lots of conflicting info out there. Miller told me that there were at least a few companies that would write coverage for us. Nat Gen does seem to be the best though. That makes me nervous that someone was told no bob tailing with them. Can this be confirmed?

Chris, Tracey, Aria & Lola

2018 Volvo VNR 400, D13 I-Shift

2018 NH 48' Majestic

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2 hours ago, 13speed said:

Lots of conflicting info out there. Miller told me that there were at least a few companies that would write coverage for us. Nat Gen does seem to be the best though. That makes me nervous that someone was told no bob tailing with them. Can this be confirmed?

It can easily be confirmed.  Just look on your policy under coverage and exclusions.  If there is no mention of it within those areas, you are covered.

 

John

Southern Nevada

2008 Volvo 780, D13, I-Shift

2017 Keystone Fuzion 420 Toyhauler 

2017 Can-Am Maverick X3-RS

 

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2 hours ago, VegasFlyer said:

It can easily be confirmed.  Just look on your policy under coverage and exclusions.  If there is no mention of it within those areas, you are covered.

 

I meant that if someone had a policy that said they could bobtail and they just decided to change it one day and send out a letter. "Sorry we changed our minds"

 

Chris, Tracey, Aria & Lola

2018 Volvo VNR 400, D13 I-Shift

2018 NH 48' Majestic

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47 minutes ago, 13speed said:

I meant that if someone had a policy that said they could bobtail and they just decided to change it one day and send out a letter. "Sorry we changed our minds"

 

When you receive your policy, it is written for a specified term, usually six or twelve months.  It is nearly impossible for the insurance company to make a significant change to that policy, during the specified term.  It is not impossible, but highly improbable.  That is why they are so cautious during the underwriting phase.

My lovely DW, resident insurance expert, has taught me so much about the ins and outs of the insurance industry.  She has worked in the business in most aspects, covering liability, property damage and litigated construction defect that involves anything from 100.00 to multi million dollar claims involving multiple parties.

The main point being that she constantly stresses is that it does not matter one bit what an agent or company Rep tells you verbally or even in writing, it is the policy jacket and the terms of that policy that tells the whole story. 

John

Southern Nevada

2008 Volvo 780, D13, I-Shift

2017 Keystone Fuzion 420 Toyhauler 

2017 Can-Am Maverick X3-RS

 

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The other thing to keep in mind, just like criminal and administrative statutes are written to impose limits, not rights, you would probably never find a policy that would specifically cite that you are allowed to drive your truck to Timbuktu without being attached to the covered trailer, You would find a limitation or exclusion which cites that you can not do so.  

 

John

Southern Nevada

2008 Volvo 780, D13, I-Shift

2017 Keystone Fuzion 420 Toyhauler 

2017 Can-Am Maverick X3-RS

 

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1 minute ago, VegasFlyer said:

The other thing to keep in mind, just like criminal and administrative statutes are written to impose limits, not rights, you would probably never find a policy that would specifically cite that you are allowed to drive your truck to Timbuktu without being attached to the covered trailer, You would find a limitation or exclusion which cites that you can not do so.  

 

Well I am just getting a little nervous as things are getting real for us. I sent out a good chunk of cash to Volvo and NH last week and the last thing I want to hear is that insurance is getting harder to get or that they will limit what we can do with our trucks. I am betting the farm that this lifestyle works out well for us.

Chris, Tracey, Aria & Lola

2018 Volvo VNR 400, D13 I-Shift

2018 NH 48' Majestic

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1 hour ago, 13speed said:

Well I am just getting a little nervous as things are getting real for us. I sent out a good chunk of cash to Volvo and NH last week and the last thing I want to hear is that insurance is getting harder to get or that they will limit what we can do with our trucks. I am betting the farm that this lifestyle works out well for us.

While nobody can predict the future, there is nothing that I have seen that would warrant even the slightest bit of panic over future coverage.

When we did our shopping we got multiple quotes from multiple agents with quotes from multiple endorsing insurance companies.

It is true that National General is the winner price wise, the others were not so outlandish to indicate anything other than the fact that National General offers good rates.

Personally, I have watched the helicopter insurance market go in ebbs and flows over the past 25 years.  That market is so unique that it makes the hdt market seem like mainstream.  With EVERY helicopter policy having to be primarily covered through Loyds of London, through multiple layers of providers and brokers, the industry has ran in panic mode for the entire time.

John

Southern Nevada

2008 Volvo 780, D13, I-Shift

2017 Keystone Fuzion 420 Toyhauler 

2017 Can-Am Maverick X3-RS

 

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I do not know if this would be a good thing or not but maybe a insurance company should be invited to a HDT Rally to see what we are all about and hopefully educate them more on the safety and why we use them. I myself would not know how  to do this, kind of thinking out loud here, then would be opening the door to more issues? Any thoughts , good or bad?

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2001 T2000 Kenworth

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8 hours ago, 13speed said:

Well I am just getting a little nervous as things are getting real for us. I sent out a good chunk of cash to Volvo and NH last week and the last thing I want to hear is that insurance is getting harder to get or that they will limit what we can do with our trucks. I am betting the farm that this lifestyle works out well for us.

I am in this position also. There seem to be differences in state by state coverage but not huge differences in coverage. I like the fact I can refer to these posts for more info. 

I started a policy with Progressive and have yet to sign papers and return them. (Today should be done). The agent said they have no language forbidding the separation of truck and trailer, But if there is an accident claim made and I am driving the HDT outside of that agreement, I will be cancelled. 

Kevin and June

2013 Volvo VNL 730    D13 Eco-Torque @ 425  Ratio 2.47 

2014 DRV 36TKSB3 

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here is what we did:

calling Miller, they gave us a quote through National General. Due to the age of our Peterbilt, they only offered liability. But as per Miller, no restrictions on driving.

I then contacted Thum insurance and they got me full coverage through progressive, with the truck considered a motorhome. Truck and Trailer had to be insured through progressive, but yet, both have their own policy. rates were great. The Agent did tell us, that progressive does not like for us to use the truck for anything else, but pulling the camper, fuel. service or food run, while on vacation. However, the policy does not have any restrictions what's whoever. The agent explained, that it is the same with vintage vehicles, that are only supposed to be driven in parades or shows, but people drive it every chance they get and there are not clauses in the policy..

hope that helps

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Quote

 maybe a insurance company should be invited to a HDT Rally to see what we are all about and hopefully educate them more on the safety and why we use them

I think that's a great idea, and would be very enlightening for an insurer.

"There are No Experts, Do the Math!"

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3 hours ago, Sculptor said:

I am in this position also. There seem to be differences in state by state coverage but not huge differences in coverage. I like the fact I can refer to these posts for more info. 

I started a policy with Progressive and have yet to sign papers and return them. (Today should be done). The agent said they have no language forbidding the separation of truck and trailer, But if there is an accident claim made and I am driving the HDT outside of that agreement, I will be cancelled. 

 

3 hours ago, DIESELSUBMARINER said:

here is what we did:

calling Miller, they gave us a quote through National General. Due to the age of our Peterbilt, they only offered liability. But as per Miller, no restrictions on driving.

I then contacted Thum insurance and they got me full coverage through progressive, with the truck considered a motorhome. Truck and Trailer had to be insured through progressive, but yet, both have their own policy. rates were great. The Agent did tell us, that progressive does not like for us to use the truck for anything else, but pulling the camper, fuel. service or food run, while on vacation. However, the policy does not have any restrictions what's whoever. The agent explained, that it is the same with vintage vehicles, that are only supposed to be driven in parades or shows, but people drive it every chance they get and there are not clauses in the policy..

hope that helps

I hope there are no issues down the road for being bobtail as most of you know my plans are to use the truck while traveling 3-4 months per year. I wonder what the issue is with bobtailing? I have never been aware of bobtail tractors running around crashing into things commercially or not. Most wrecks I have heard of or seen were with a trailer hooked up. 

Chris, Tracey, Aria & Lola

2018 Volvo VNR 400, D13 I-Shift

2018 NH 48' Majestic

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19 minutes ago, 13speed said:

I hope there are no issues down the road for being bobtail as most of you know my plans are to use the truck while traveling 3-4 months per year. I wonder what the issue is with bobtailing? I have never been aware of bobtail tractors running around crashing into things commercially or not. Most wrecks I have heard of or seen were with a trailer hooked up. 

I think the issue about bobtail is about the underwriter making sure that you are using the HDT for anything else but pulling your 5th wheel.

I will add that my HDT was insured thru Progressive.  When shopping for my policy having the ability to bobtail as well as pull any other trailer I may own was the difference between deal/no deal.  While the agent selling me the policy (thru RV America at the time) did assure me that is what I was getting, I did not sign the policy until after I actually read the policy and confirmed that I did not have any restrictions or limitations.  Each year at renewal time I again took the time to review the policy to verify that I still did not have any restrictions or limitations.

At the time, I also moved my 5th wheel over to Progressive as well.  It was not required but I felt if I ever did have a claim involving both HDT & 5th wheel that dealing with a single carrier would be easier on me.  I never had a claim so I did not get a chance to test out my theory.

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34 minutes ago, 13speed said:

 

I hope there are no issues down the road for being bobtail as most of you know my plans are to use the truck while traveling 3-4 months per year. I wonder what the issue is with bobtailing? I have never been aware of bobtail tractors running around crashing into things commercially or not. Most wrecks I have heard of or seen were with a trailer hooked up. 

I know the converted HDT's of today handle much differently that the older "day cab" tractors that I drove for 20 years, but with that being said, driving bobtail is much different than driving with a trailer behind you. Unless you've added a lot of weight to compensate, traction on your rear wheels is drastically less, and it doesn't take much to create a problem. I've had small ripples in a road (washboard type) bounce the rears enough to throw me out of my lane even at low speed. In rain or other low traction conditions, the slightest variation in the surface, or even applying the brakes can get you in trouble in a heartbeat. I have seen bobtail drivers in the ditch after an attempted panic stop. Even the relatively light weight of the camping trailers adds a lot of stability, but one must remember that these trucks were designed to safely pull some 80,000 lbs. down the highway. You probably don't see many bobtail related accidents because a commercial tractor running without a load isn't making any money, and is avoided whenever possible.JMHO....

 

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1 hour ago, HD_RIDER said:

I know the converted HDT's of today handle much differently that the older "day cab" tractors that I drove for 20 years, but with that being said, driving bobtail is much different than driving with a trailer behind you. Unless you've added a lot of weight to compensate, traction on your rear wheels is drastically less, and it doesn't take much to create a problem. I've had small ripples in a road (washboard type) bounce the rears enough to throw me out of my lane even at low speed. In rain or other low traction conditions, the slightest variation in the surface, or even applying the brakes can get you in trouble in a heartbeat. I have seen bobtail drivers in the ditch after an attempted panic stop. Even the relatively light weight of the camping trailers adds a lot of stability, but one must remember that these trucks were designed to safely pull some 80,000 lbs. down the highway. You probably don't see many bobtail related accidents because a commercial tractor running without a load isn't making any money, and is avoided whenever possible.JMHO....

 

so if you single out short, the weight increases on the rear axle and if you drive little more aggressive tread tires, shouldn't you be safer while bobtailing?

 

 

 

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I doubt if the extra weight would be significant   I've got several very large chunks of lead hanging just inside the tail, and don't know if it helps that much.  More aggressive tread may actually mean less pavement contact in dry conditions.   In fact I think the longer wheelbase would have more effect than the weight issue.  A longer wheelbase vehicle simply has a longer "lever"--less traction still means less likelyhood to swing around the front.  A short Jeep is far easier to spin on ice than a dual cab PU.  IME, tandem is better than singles for bobtail, just cause more rubber on the road, even if its light.  

I remember one absolutely terrifying moment when we were traveling from the campground to the "attraction"...small country road, whole family in the truck.  Dry and clear.  I was only traveling maybe 45mph, but came around a curve and there was a stop sign you could not see until you were right on top of it.   Hit the brakes, rear end started to come around the truck; thankfully, nobody was coming and I just let up and went thru.   Could have been bad.... 

This is why we encourage everyone to build the bed HEAVY!     

Kinda weird how the insurance companies don't want to insure us...I'm betting the accident incidence is very low.  Guess they just don't want to bother.   I had no problem getting insurance thru Country Companies in IL

No camper at present.

Way too many farm machines to maintain.

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I did hear one reason, Blue sky stopped covering us. Within the last 2 years, there claims had went through the roof on RV use. But you can hear anything. But when I called checking on why we were being dropped. That is what I was told in a round about way.

As for bob tailing,or using  the truck to pull other trailers. When we swapped over to the General. We asked that question. As I pull our goose-neck trailers while at home. As we own land that is 12 and 24 miles away. So I move the tractor and bush-hog to those places. Along with pulling a 16ft dump trailer. That I haul gravel for my own use in. And they told us, that was fine. AS long as it was for personal use. And I was not hauling for hire.

Also told them, it would be only only mode of transportation. So when traveling we would use it to get around. Unless it was somewhere we needed to go. And the truck was an issue. Then we would rent a car to visit there. But when I ran over the road. I did a lot of site seeing. And used the semi, as my personal auto. Even went to Mount Rushmore in a tractor bob tailing.  

 

 


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17 hours ago, Sculptor said:

I am in this position also. There seem to be differences in state by state coverage but not huge differences in coverage. I like the fact I can refer to these posts for more info. 

I started a policy with Progressive and have yet to sign papers and return them. (Today should be done). The agent said they have no language forbidding the separation of truck and trailer, But if there is an accident claim made and I am driving the HDT outside of that agreement, I will be cancelled. 

Outside of what agreement?

John

Southern Nevada

2008 Volvo 780, D13, I-Shift

2017 Keystone Fuzion 420 Toyhauler 

2017 Can-Am Maverick X3-RS

 

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I meant to say, the requirements to only drive my HDT to a mechanic or with a camper/fiver.  I know, there is a discrepancy.  The agent said there is no language forbidding bobtailing yet Progressive will cancel me if I am bobtail and have an incident and there is a claim.  

Another agent told me regular truckers try to use RV insurance to move their trucks around between loads.  Not saying I believe it but that's what one person said. 

Kevin and June

2013 Volvo VNL 730    D13 Eco-Torque @ 425  Ratio 2.47 

2014 DRV 36TKSB3 

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