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So....Was Big5er Right.....Sorta


Dollytrolley

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Every once in a while various threads pop up when someone ask some questions about HDT RV use that crosses the line into commercial use......sorta....or sorta not.....

SOMETIMES......Big5er gets dragged into the thread and often explains what various laws & regs have to say about HDT / RV uses and exemptions and then often some yahoo will pull Phils leash kinda hard and Phil often says something like.........."well someday the Big-Wigs at DOT will notice all these rich RV, Racer, Horsers, 4-H'rs , and Quilters that are driving 23 hours a day to make $$ and "Events" and they are actually driving a "commercial-vehicle" with RV plates and skirting all DOT rules AND then they will eliminate the HDT RV Exemption.......Poof....Gone ".............something like that.

Now a few years ago Phil and I got in a bit of a food fight mostly about a bunch of ropers that had HDT units registered as RV's and for the most part Phil was right and ........I was wrong in that roping events in AZ is outright gambling and $$$$ is the name of the game........so as Phil says "Horsers" and "Racers" are big-time cheaters of the DOT rules ...........Sorta.......Dolly is a pure trail rider and the only $$$$$ flow OUT of my pocket so the Dollytrolley is a pure charity-case.........HOWEVER this is where things get sticky......Dolly might be %1000 trail-horse but IF I could afford a rope Dolly could be a roper-horse.......until Dollymomma found about my "plan" and then I would be dead........

Anyhow here is where I am headed , is that to a DOT inspector a HDT towing a horse just might be a Roper or Barrel Racer of Jumper headed to Buckwheat TX to win big $$$$ and will drive ALL night Friday to get there and Drive ALL night Sunday to get back home with a pocket full of $$$$ and NO LOG BOOK at all or a CDL or a DOT Number or DOT Medical or......or......

Car , Bike, Off-Road racers are likely twice as bad as the Horsers.............

So is Phil right that the DOT will just throw a bolt of lighting and then all HDT RV's be no longer exempt from commercial regs???

I have commented on a few threads that I think that maybe before DOT would act …….that perhaps Insurance Companies might take steps to address the OUTLAW HDT RV'ers……...so…..are we now starting to see the Insurance Companies reacting to various “concerns” regarding HDT RV use???

A lot of folks have become “concerned” about having their HDT insurance dropped by Blue Sky and when they shop around the “HDT RV Insurance Market” seems to be in a “state of change” to say the least…….and not always has the “Change” been for a better or cheaper policy…...IF a policy can be had…..

One of the new “gotcha's” is that many underwriters are trying to “hard-hitch” a specific RV trailer to a specific RV and only allow bobtail operations TO and FROM fuel or close by repair services…….NO daily driver bobtailing……...a few policies allow bobtailing but the underwriters tend to be herd animals and so in the future more and more “Hard-Hitching” will likely be the norm. Trailers are getting a CLOSE look..... any trailer over 34 ft be comes “suspect” and stacker and large garage toyhaulers are very suspect since a LOT of “OUTLAWS” tend to favor these big trailers…...Tandem is a another “alert” “condition”……

Underwriters can be very picky with “Tiny” insurance market sectors such as HDT RV's the unit numbers are tiny and if they perceive that “Outlaws” are gaming the policies the underwriters just fold their cards and go into the next market that looks better……

I have owned a couple of light twin aircraft that fell out of favor a few decades ago and the underwriters folded up overnight and the value of my units fell a few hundred $K AND no one wanted to buy the units because……..where you gonna get insurance?

Now are we there yet…….no …..but where are we headed???


 

Drive on……...(Less insurance…..less bobtailing???)

97 Freightshaker Century Cummins M11-370 / 1350 /10 spd / 3:08 /tandem/ 20ft Garage/ 30 ft Curtis Dune toybox with a removable horse-haul-module to transport Dolly-The-Painthorse to horse camps and trail heads all over the Western U S

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You make it all seem so logical, and scary.  My policy says I can pull ANY trailer, as long as the use is non-commercial, and bob tail anywhere.  I can pull my 25 ton drag, hauling kids on a haunted hayride. (okay, the air hitch might be little light).  But my point is, some day I might get a letter of "non-renewal" too.  Fortunately, we just renewed a couple of weeks ago. (Progressive through Lazy Days RV)  They did require that the truck and 5er be bundled on the same policy.

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As far as the insurance goes, IMHO, it is not changing a noticeable amount, at least for Nevada.

We are card carrying members of the Dumped by Blue club and at first we were a bit anxious to see what we would find to replace an honestly good policy that we had with them, as we have a tandem truck and wanted to be able to use the truck by itself for occasional trips or camping.

What we found, after shopping four different vendors, all offering underwriting through National General, was a comparable policy at less than what we had been paying.  Most also provided great options for uninsured/underinsured coverage, did not limit the bobtail usage and could care less about the tandem.

As stated above, this is purely anecdotal and for coverage in Nevada, though We have not seen anything that would annotate a storm on the horizon. 

John

Southern Nevada

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Rick,

That's my point ..........this is likely how the "slippery-slope" to challenges in obtaining HDT RV insurance in the future........

First "Require" that you bundle the 5er together........next your 5er is the only trailer you can tow.......next no-bobtail.....next......

Think about it........it's likely that your ANY-TRAILER -POLICY has considerable more 'EXPOSURE-RISK" than the next underwriters policy.........so........what is the current trend..........easing of restrictions.....or more restrictions ??????

Seems like a roll of the dice presently ......where you are registered.....what your rig is......

Just pondering what I am seeing......

 

Drive on.........(Ponder,,,,,,,)

97 Freightshaker Century Cummins M11-370 / 1350 /10 spd / 3:08 /tandem/ 20ft Garage/ 30 ft Curtis Dune toybox with a removable horse-haul-module to transport Dolly-The-Painthorse to horse camps and trail heads all over the Western U S

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6 minutes ago, VegasFlyer said:

As far as the insurance goes, IMHO, it is not changing a noticeable amount, at least for Nevada.

We are card carrying members of the Dumped by Blue club and at first we were a bit anxious to see what we would find to replace an honestly good policy that we had with them, as we have a tandem truck and wanted to be able to use the truck by itself for occasional trips or camping.

What we found, after shopping four different vendors, all offering underwriting through National General, was a comparable policy at less than what we had been paying.  Most also provided great options for uninsured/underinsured coverage, did not limit the bobtail usage and could care less about the tandem.

As stated above, this is purely anecdotal and for coverage in Nevada, though We have not seen anything that would annotate a storm on the horizon. 

John I  am not saying that HDT insurance is gone .....what I am saying the the underwriters are few and recently became fewer and with that it might behoove us that we keep in mind what you just posted.......... "after shopping four different vendors, all offering underwriting through National General"   ............I would think that might give one .....PAUSE.....FOUR vendors.....ONE UNDERWRITER.............

When you boil that down you really were shopping.........ONE choice......with four payment options....

Trends support that the fewer underwriters in a given market ........the more "interesting" the markets tends to be.......

 

Drive on.........(What are the REAL .....options)

 

97 Freightshaker Century Cummins M11-370 / 1350 /10 spd / 3:08 /tandem/ 20ft Garage/ 30 ft Curtis Dune toybox with a removable horse-haul-module to transport Dolly-The-Painthorse to horse camps and trail heads all over the Western U S

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DT,

What you are saying is not without merit, though in our case, it is not fair to proclaim that National General is the only option out there.  All four vendors had multiple underwriting options, NG was the most competitive.

John

Southern Nevada

2008 Volvo 780, D13, I-Shift

2017 Keystone Fuzion 420 Toyhauler 

2017 Can-Am Maverick X3-RS

 

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50 minutes ago, VegasFlyer said:

DT,

What you are saying is not without merit, though in our case, it is not fair to proclaim that National General is the only option out there.  All four vendors had multiple underwriting options, NG was the most competitive.

Indeed we are not without a few other underwriters at this point ......it seems that only a couple are likely competitive and then the "restrictions" filter down ........

We are a tiny market so even having a couple of underwriters are better than.....one.

 

Drive on.........(More than one is a better .....number)

97 Freightshaker Century Cummins M11-370 / 1350 /10 spd / 3:08 /tandem/ 20ft Garage/ 30 ft Curtis Dune toybox with a removable horse-haul-module to transport Dolly-The-Painthorse to horse camps and trail heads all over the Western U S

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To bolster your point, I would recommend that every new person popping out of the lurking darkness, be HIGHLY encouraged by everyone here, to obtain formal training.

John

Southern Nevada

2008 Volvo 780, D13, I-Shift

2017 Keystone Fuzion 420 Toyhauler 

2017 Can-Am Maverick X3-RS

 

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1 hour ago, forxlr8n said:

I use my truck to pull my sons Jr Dragster's to the races. Commerical NOT even close. Can we win money a little bit yes, but according to the IRS it's a hobby. 

Ahhh, but the IRS doesn't regulate highway vehicles.  The DOT, in many states, takes an entirely different view of whether it's commercial.

I found out the hard way, that although my state DMV doesn't consider a farm tractor a "motor vehicle",  the game warden says it is.  No more rabbit hunting from the harvester.............

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Dolly, you could be on to something and the DOT may have a bit of a role in the decision.  Are underwriters seeing a trend of policyholders getting popped by the DOT?  The guy then upgrades his license and what ever else he got popped for but is not changing his policy to a commercial policy?

About 3 weeks ago I am awoken to a ringing a phone while in a different timezone while on vacation.  The caller id shows it is my former neighbor.  Now I have not talked to this guy in about 5 years when he left his bat a$$ crazy wife in his rear view mirror when he walked away from her and the house.  So I knew this was not a social call.  After getting caught up on the social issues since we last talked, the reason for the call was reviled.  His employee/driver got popped with a $1700 ticket going thru a the scales in OK for not having a commercial drivers license.

He was confused as to why he got popped.  Truck/trailer scaled in under 26k.  Seemed very cut/dry to me, you pulled in to the scales, only commercial vehicles are required to be scaled, so best have the proper class of CDL.  So after first explaining that in Texas each class of license can be either commercial or non-commercial.  Then I explained the difference between commercial or non-commercial status for the vehicle is the vehicles function not the vehicle itself or it registration.  About the 3rd time I used the word "function" it all seemed to make since to him.  He finally understood what I meant when I said that I have a Class A license, not a Class A-CDL license.  I told him they have been cracking down on hot shots for years now and it would also be best to find out if he should also be running with DOT numbers as the laws have changed in recent years.

Last fall I rented 2 6 passanger golf carts.  The pickup/delivery fee (10 miles) was just as much as the rental of the carts for the entire weekend.  So I hooked up my 24' gooseneck to the HDT to transport the golf carts.  The owner of the business falls in love with my HDT and states that is what he now wants to do for pulling his 5th wheel.  I said great, give me a call if you have any questions.  Then he adds that he can write it off as a business expense and use the HDT for a backup if the regular delivery truck is in the shop or they get swamped with deliveries.  I said wait now the truck is commercial but he wanted to argue that the 5th wheel is the trucks primary purpose.  I then said lose my number cause I don't want to here about it if you decide to go HDT then get popped by the DOT.  I was no longer his new best friend.

So back to my original question, are underwriters seeing a trend?  Based on trends they are seeing are they deciding the market is too small to deal with the cheats?  Is this why we are seeing more and more require the truck and trailer both required and the only trailer the truck can pull is the trailer they insure?

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1 hour ago, forxlr8n said:

I use my truck to pull my sons Jr Dragster's to the races. Commerical NOT even close. Can we win money a little bit yes, but according to the IRS it's a hobby. 

IRS says it is hobby but the DOT says in this case it is commercial.  Standing in front of the judge, the judge is going to agree with the DOT.

I am not saying I agree or disagree with how the law is interpreted but you should not be surprised of how it is going to play out if you get popped.

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2 hours ago, rickeieio said:

Ahhh, but the IRS doesn't regulate highway vehicles.  The DOT, in many states, takes an entirely different view of whether it's commercial.

I found out the hard way, that although my state DMV doesn't consider a farm tractor a "motor vehicle",  the game warden says it is.  No more rabbit hunting from the harvester.............

Hey Rick...I heard that this guy was shooting rabbits from his cab as well.  Be careful out there!  :lol:

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2 hours ago, forxlr8n said:

I don't open the door of the trailer so they won't know what is inside. It has full living quarters in the front so we are always going camping not racing.

 

This doesn't do you any good when you get stopped for a commercial inspection when leaving the race track.  While this is not an every day occurrence, it does happen.  DOT/Commercial enforcement officers have been known to sit outside race tracks and conduct roadside inspections.  They do not need probable cause to stop you for this because it is an administrative stop.  CHP in California has been known to do this and I know of other states that have done this as well.  Just saying, if your racing for money and hauling that racer, in the eyes of a commercial enforcement officer you are commercial.

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2 hours ago, spindrift said:

Hey Rick...I heard that this guy was shooting rabbits from his cab as well.  Be careful out there!  :lol:

Tractor

Oooooohhhh..... Bad day.  It looks like he didn't bend anything, but I bet his britches were soiled. 

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Wow good information and I cannot argue anything said here. When I got the notice of non-renewal and looking typical responses was we do not cover any trailer over 35 feet or we do not cover tandem only single rear axle. The 35 foot did not matter what you pulled it with. Tandem rear axle no matter how you argued it was safer, on and on the same thing. I did not bring up how many single rear axle trucks are commercial. Don't want to give them any ideas that may affect those with single axles. 

From what I understand this is called in the insurance industry as a "hard stop" give up arguing with agent as there is nothing they can do it is a corporate decision and good luck getting to those people I tried. Honestly at this point you can only  go along with it and do the best you can. Hey been arguing I don't need a class A CDL with no luck. Unless your a State Senator not going to change or if there is money in it for somebody. Hey I had a triple heart bypass so now have to have yearly physical with a cardiac stress test. I love Arizona so I do what I have to do to make it work.

Someday if we want to use the HDT at all commercial insurance maybe all that is available with its inherent high premiums. Oh well have to find another way or give it up. As to bobtail I am always on the way to get fuel! Like in the past talk to different people get different answers. National General told me no problem bobtail they have told others no!!! 

As to arguing with Big5er I have not watched and it seems he provides good insight how law enforcement will respond. Bottom line right or wrong on the side of the road he is RIGHT. A judge will decide the final outcome and my experience the LEO usually is listened to and the decision in his favor. Still you may win the argument but is it worth the time and money to win? A personal decision.

Today through the 8th starts the CSVA inspections across the USA so be ready if you get caught up in one. You may need know that LEO perspective on things he sees!!!

Have a great day.

 

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7 hours ago, forxlr8n said:

I don't open the door of the trailer so they won't know what is inside. It has full living quarters in the front so we are always going camping not racing.

 

 

Forx.....

Your alibi is just about "air-tight".........sorta.....

Back in the stone age I had to re-position some aircraft at odd hours and one late night things were "normal" (all screwed up) so I was delayed to the point that I would not land back home at about 02:00  (2:00 AM) and to make matters worse it had snowed about 6 inches while I was gone and all I had at the hanger to get home with was a old Honda Enduro with pretty bald tires........to make matters worse yet I was supposed to go Elk hunting at 04:30 with a buddy that was a old-time city cop........

So......I crammed a bunch of change into the pay phone and called the police department and told dispatch that I might be late to meet Denny for our early morning hunt if the weather was below Instrument approach minimums……..I told the dispatch that if things improved I would likely land at about 02:00 .....dispatch said well Denny might be on patrol near the airport at that time so he might stop by the hanger…...(that would be nice, I could hitch a ride with Denny back town).

So…...I land at about 02:00 and sure enough there was a nice warm cop car with a big thermos of hot coffee…...as I opened the hanger door and fired up the tug and in a few minutes the airplane was tucked into the hanger…….just as I was about to close the hanger door when Denny got a call on the radio that a burglar alarm was tripped at a local restaurant where we were planning to have breakfast at 04:30……...I said oh shucks it take the darn hanger door about a minute to come down and then latch so you better turn your lights on and go shoot the robbers……..Denny smiled and said…….”no big hurry let the door close but I would like to borrow your Little Giant  folding ladder so I can get up on the restaurant roof”

So…..Denny went into the tool crib and got the ladder and crammed it back into the back seat of the car and once the hanger door closed we carefully drove back to town without the red light on…….I ask Denny why don't you drive fast with the flashers on……..he smiled and said “oh heck what's the hurry at this time in the morning …….IT is the dishwasher…….”

I said “what do you mean it's the dishwasher?

Denny said “well a few times each year a dishwasher decides to get rich robbing the restaurant where he washes dishes……..he climbs up on the roof he takes the cap off the stack over the grill and drops down on the grill only to find that the cash register till has no money…..so then he climbs back into the grill stack and stands on the filter frame but……...but….guess what…...the stack has…...grease on the stack walls and he can't get back up to the roof……..”

Denny smiled and then said……..”you see a robber that “smart” …...needs a day-job as a dishwasher...”

Now regarding pulling the wool over the DOT -Cop eyes…. I seem to recall lately that Big5er indicated that most of the time before he even turns the flashing red and blues on he has already run the plate numbers so he knows the name(s) of the truck / trailer owner(s) …….AND…….then he CHEATS……...He Google's the name(s) and low and behold he not only knows about the race car….race horse….Four-H Rabbits…..or whatever…... but he also knows what the latest ET's and speeds for the car's last 12 races and what the $$$ winnings were……..

Sometimes cops are just not as dumb or……..UN-Informed as one might give them "no-credit" for.

Social media has a world full of info just waiting to flow out of any smart phone of cop-car laptop……

Now we might suspect that cops don't play fair by Goggling us but ……...do you think that Insurance Companies and Underwriters don't know how to Google as well…….(or better than cops)…

Shucks, our plain-Jane toybox is only 30 ft long but our truck is 33ft so we just are a tad under the 65 ft legal RV combo for most states ……..I wonder why Insurance companies seem to cast a evil-eye at RV trailers past 34 ft ?

Do you think RV Insurance geeks ever look at the RV forums…….heck no they just pitch a booth at the RV shows and pass out cheap pens so we can sign on for policies for another year…….maybe...

 

Drive on…….(31 years…. Big5er has heard …...lotsa “stories” at the side of the road)

97 Freightshaker Century Cummins M11-370 / 1350 /10 spd / 3:08 /tandem/ 20ft Garage/ 30 ft Curtis Dune toybox with a removable horse-haul-module to transport Dolly-The-Painthorse to horse camps and trail heads all over the Western U S

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7 hours ago, spindrift said:

Hey Rick...I heard that this guy was shooting rabbits from his cab as well.  Be careful out there!  :lol:

Tractor

Can just about guarantee this guy was running GPS steering and not paying any attention.....a look at things to come in the trucking industry, maybe?

No camper at present.

Way too many farm machines to maintain.

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11 hours ago, forxlr8n said:

I don't open the door of the trailer so they won't know what is inside. It has full living quarters in the front so we are always going camping not racing.

 

Dolley done gave away my secrets. Shucks. We don't need ya to open it to know whats in it.

Is this close? How did I do? A quick search on your forum user name took me to a photobucket page. Used the name on the photobucket web page, and the name on the side of the car. Don't ya just love the internet? 

Racing.jpg

If I'm right, you might wanna change that stuff before some dumb old DOT officer stops ya :)

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1 hour ago, Big5er said:

Dolley done gave away my secrets. Shucks. We don't need ya to open it to know whats in it.

Is this close? How did I do? A quick search on your forum user name took me to a photobucket page. Used the name on the photobucket web page, and the name on the side of the car. Don't ya just love the internet? 

Racing.jpg

If I'm right, you might wanna change that stuff before some dumb old DOT officer stops ya :)

Dang........now look what my fat typing thumbs got started......

So.......does the internet work the "other" direction..........you see in the next few days we are planning to wonder Nort out of the edge of Death Valley and take the back roads out of NW Nevada and out across  Hyw 140 through the Sheldon National Wildlife Refuge  and the last time we traveled the 160 miles the traffic was Intense.......ONE Pickup, ONE Jeep.........so since we just got Dolly-the-paint-horse health certificate ($166.21) by email today does that perhaps mean that DOT might send a Livestock-Inspector to meet us at the Oregon State line and escort (Lights Flashing) us the last 250 miles home out across the "outback".........

https://www.google.com/search?q=sheldon+national+wildlife+refuge+camping&oq=sheldon&aqs=chrome.3.69i57j0j35i39l2j0l2.13661j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#q=sheldon+national+wildlife+refuge+camping&rflfq=1&rlha=0&rllag=41848969,-119303762,24947&tbm=lcl&rldimm=2029167350354383457&tbs=lrf:!2m1!1e2!3sEAE,lf:1,lf_ui:1

 

Next time you have FULL tanks...... head out Highway 140 .....the hot springs are awesome.......

Drive on..... (Just gotta love the .......net)

97 Freightshaker Century Cummins M11-370 / 1350 /10 spd / 3:08 /tandem/ 20ft Garage/ 30 ft Curtis Dune toybox with a removable horse-haul-module to transport Dolly-The-Painthorse to horse camps and trail heads all over the Western U S

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1 hour ago, Big5er said:

Dolley done gave away my secrets. Shucks. We don't need ya to open it to know whats in it.

Is this close? How did I do? A quick search on your forum user name took me to a photobucket page. Used the name on the photobucket web page, and the name on the side of the car. Don't ya just love the internet? 

Racing.jpg

If I'm right, you might wanna change that stuff before some dumb old DOT officer stops ya :)

Priceless for sure. And how a guy close to me got busted last weekend.  But he did smart off to the Officer. So karma came back to bite him. Got tickets for pulling a pulling truck. Had the name all over the side o the pull truck. And his nice Peterbilt.

 

 


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14 hours ago, forxlr8n said:

I use my truck to pull my sons Jr Dragster's to the races. Commerical NOT even close. Can we win money a little bit yes, but according to the IRS it's a hobby. 

Ya' might wanna run that one by your accountant.  Typically you have to have a "racing business" in order to deduct the cost of the expenses of racing to offset the purse collected.  Otherwise you are on the hook for taxes on 100% of the purse, and can't deduct the expenses.  I understand that at this stage of the racing game the purses are tiny, the checks likely in your son's name, and the expenses far outweigh the purse, and most are skating on the taxes anyway because the amounts are small.  But at some point (hopefully) he'll win a big enough race that the size of the check triggers an IRS form and you'll be taxed on the whole thing.

And here in our neck of the woods (OH and PA), the dot considers that if you are racing for pay (the purse) you are commercial in their eyes.  And yes, they have set up outside motorsports events and get everybody coming or going.  The DOT is not the IRS.

And back on topic...   mine is only an MDT, but I pull a 38' fifth (and formerly 40' race trailer) and had zero questions from state farm getting it insured.  During the time I have owned it it has been licensed and insured both as a commercial truck, and non-commercial (depending on how I was using it in that time period), and my agent could care less, just writes the policy and collects the money.

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There is an entirely different thing to consider with this dragster commercial hobby thing.

As mentioned above, it is debatable whether it is a commercial enterprise in the eyes of the IRS.  It most certainly is commercial in the DOT world.  Big5er informed you on a County level, Chad informed you on a State level and I will inform you on a Federal level, so you have that taken care of.

The last and probably the potential for the greatest financial hit to you, is your very own insurance.

While you can realistically operate under the LEO radar fairly effectively.  Should your lottery ticket get punched or Karma just happens and you wind up in a an at fault crash, there is a high probability that you will wind up in a very bad spot.  Your carrier would be legally compelled to cover any liability damage you caused, that is not a big deal.  

After that point, however, they can deny payment for any damage to your vehicle(s), terminate your coverage and then take action to recover any money they paid out on your behalf, directly from you.  You would also find it nearly impossible to obtain coverage from any normal risk carrier.  They do not have much of a sense of humor when it comes to that sort of thing.  

My lovely DW can share stories that will make your skin crawl, from such things.

John

Southern Nevada

2008 Volvo 780, D13, I-Shift

2017 Keystone Fuzion 420 Toyhauler 

2017 Can-Am Maverick X3-RS

 

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