So....Was Big5er Right.....Sorta

[VegasFlyer]

5 hours ago, forxlr8n said:

I have truck insurance (not RV) and a CDL so feel i'm not skirting any laws yet. Other than log books

We have truck insurance too.  Do you have a commercial or non commercial policy, there is a big difference.

[Dollytrolley]

18 hours ago, Hot Rod said:

 

And back on topic...   mine is only an MDT, but I pull a 38' fifth (and formerly 40' race trailer) and had zero questions from state farm getting it insured.  During the time I have owned it it has been licensed and insured both as a commercial truck, and non-commercial (depending on how I was using it in that time period), and my agent could care less, just writes the policy and collects the money.

Hot....

You bring some interesting points to the table......

Sounds like maybe your agent indeed .....could care less  what he gives me a policy since he just............collects the money.....

Now consider this.........THE underwriter  just writes the policy AND depends on "your" and "Their" agent to do THE Due-Diligence to in theory to protect the underwriter from insuring a "commercial" use with a RV-Policy and you also SHOULD be protected by the agent NOT selling you a RV-Policy for a commercial use (but you likely %100 RV at this point??).

 

Anyhow Vegas Flyer has a nice posting that alludes to the BAD JuJu that can happen when a RV policy is used in a commercial use.........grim.....

 

Drive on..........(Agent does not write the......policy......but they do collect....$$$) 

[Big5er]

11 hours ago, forxlr8n said:

I have truck insurance (not RV) and a CDL so feel i'm not skirting any laws yet. Other than log books

Dot number? That's an out of service. COMMERCIAL insurance? Hours of service? That's 10 hours out of service, and so is that log book. Fire extinguisher? Triangles? All your brakes in adjustment? Air leaks? All your lights work, even in the day time? Commercial Vehicle Inspection certificate? And BTW, hanging that dragster on the wall isn't "proper" securement either, so that's another out of service violation.

Naa, you ain't skirting many laws.

 

[Hot Rod]

Hey big5ver-

Just curious, as it has been enforced locally here...   I have a bunch of buddies that race at the local roundy round dirt track, and for decades they had been buying their methanol at the local chemical supply and carrying the 55 gallon drum in the race trailer to save buying the pricey alcohol at the track.  Then suddenly they started getting popped for hazmat violations, which as you know can get quite expensive.  No placards, no training, no hazmat endorsement, you know the list.  So now they all just carry the fuel in the race car plus maybe a 5 gallon jug, and buy the rest at the track.  So the question is, when you stop that race rig, are you checking all the race fuel, nitrous oxide, co2, nitrogen, and all the other scary and possibly placardable things they are carrying in the trailer?  I know the pro top fuel teams had to stop carrying nitro in the trailer for the same reason.  As a hazmat cdl holder, I know that kind of thing is way more dangerous out there on the road than the things that these guys typically get written up for, the triangles and log book and such that you mentioned.

[forxlr8n]

10 hours ago, Big5er said:

Dot number? That's an out of service. COMMERCIAL insurance? Hours of service? That's 10 hours out of service, and so is that log book. Fire extinguisher? Triangles? All your brakes in adjustment? Air leaks? All your lights work, even in the day time? Commercial Vehicle Inspection certificate? And BTW, hanging that dragster on the wall isn't "proper" securement either, so that's another out of service violation.

Naa, you ain't skirting many laws.

 

You mean bolted to the wall with toe clamps and (6) 3/8-16 bolts. Several fire extinguishers (foam) in the the truck and trailer. Triangles check, Yes I keep my brakes in adjustment and a very small loss of air. ACP insurance policey.I'll wait for the officer to calulate to shear strenght for the bolts, wt of the cars and all the other factors in determing whats acceptable.

 

But all of this is a moot point If the prick wants to give you a ticket you're getting it regardless.

   The clamps are not on in these photos

 

[Refuzn-To-Grow-Up]

10 hours ago, Hot Rod said:

Hey big5ver-

 I have a bunch of buddies that race at the local roundy round dirt track, and for decades they had been buying their methanol at the local chemical supply and carrying the 55 gallon drum in the race trailer to save buying the pricey alcohol at the track.  No placards, no training, no hazmat endorsement.  So now they all just carry the fuel in the race car plus maybe a 5 gallon jug, and buy the rest at the track. 

55 gallons of methanol in a trailer.  THAT IS SCARY!  I carry a Yamaha Rhino in my toy hauler garage and I ALWAYS pump out the fuel (about five gallons) before driving it into the garage, for transportation.  Their greed (did not want to buy "pricey alcohol") placed innocent people at risk of injury or a fiery death.

Laws (and we have way too many of them) are created by politicians, in reaction to individuals, whose actions have caused harm to others. 

[Refuzn-To-Grow-Up]

1 hour ago, forxlr8n said:

You mean bolted to the wall with toe clamps and (6) 3/8-16 bolts. Several fire extinguishers (foam) in the the truck and trailer. Triangles check, Yes I keep my brakes in adjustment and a very small loss of air. ACP insurance policey.I'll wait for the officer to calulate to shear strenght for the bolts, wt of the cars and all the other factors in determing whats acceptable.

 

But all of this is a moot point If the prick wants to give you a ticket you're getting it regardless.

   The clamps are not on in these photos

 

I think you missed the point, actually several of them.  The major point is that those of us who use HDT's to tow our RV's do so because it is the safest tow vehicle we can buy.  People who use HDT's, that could be deemed to be a commercial enterprise (per DOT rules) and call themselves RV'ers (to avoid the expense of being commercial) could ultimately cause the insurance industry to stop underwriting our HDT's (as RV's) and government entities to pass laws that will result in us NOT being able to use HDT's to tow our rigs (due to the expense) and forcing us to go back to towing with LDT's.  I do not want that to occur.

Your photos are good evidence that you are commercial.  And, you posted the evidence on the I-net.  Very nice set up, though.  I like it!

Regarding your comment:  "I'll wait for the officer to calulate to shear strenght for the bolts, wt of the cars and all the other factors in determing whats acceptable."  The officer does not need to do that.  But you (or a qualified expert) will, if you want to fight the expensive ticket in court.

Regarding your comment:  "But all of this is a moot point If the prick wants to give you a ticket you're getting it regardless."  The "prick" (your words not mine) is doing his job protecting travelers from people whose actions may result in injury to other travelers.  And, I am one of those travelers.  See my post (above) on racers hauling 55 gallons of alcohol in their trailers to save costs, which is selfish and irresponsible.

Lastly, each of us are ambassadors for the HDT-RV community.  Calling law enforcement "pricks" on a public forum is not a good thing.  There are many LEO's on this forum.  Additionally, I am guessing that this forum is monitored by DOT and Highway Patrol officers to see what is "trending" in our community. 

Safe travels.

[forxlr8n]

 Look I run less than 1500 miles a year. My truck isn't an RV so I'm not messing it up for you. We make several longer trips during the year and that's why we have a 46'LQT We take it camping also.   

MY whole family and some friends are in law enforcement. Not all cops are pricks but I've meet some of them over the years. I'm always nice but sometimes they're in a bad mood or pissed off. Thats the point I was referring to

There is noway that I would ever want to be in law enforcement dangerous, bad hours, low pay, high divorce rate, and have to take crap from road side lawyers. 

Be nice, you would be surprised how often that you'll get a warning.                                                                                                                        

PS you make my .......... get out of his car in the rain because you're being stupid enough he has to pull you over. I promise you're getting a Ticket

 

[cactus]

forxxl8n

For 36 years I drove the Big Road and still thank all the dedicated guy`s like big5er (Phil) and

Chad Heiser for keeping me safe from you.

Oh! Please take you Junior Dragster to Baytown to the NHRA event, Please

[Big5er]

20 hours ago, Hot Rod said:

Hey big5ver-

Just curious, as it has been enforced locally here...   I have a bunch of buddies that race at the local roundy round dirt track, and for decades they had been buying their methanol at the local chemical supply and carrying the 55 gallon drum in the race trailer to save buying the pricey alcohol at the track.  Then suddenly they started getting popped for hazmat violations, which as you know can get quite expensive.  No placards, no training, no hazmat endorsement, you know the list.  So now they all just carry the fuel in the race car plus maybe a 5 gallon jug, and buy the rest at the track.  So the question is, when you stop that race rig, are you checking all the race fuel, nitrous oxide, co2, nitrogen, and all the other scary and possibly placardable things they are carrying in the trailer?  I know the pro top fuel teams had to stop carrying nitro in the trailer for the same reason.  As a hazmat cdl holder, I know that kind of thing is way more dangerous out there on the road than the things that these guys typically get written up for, the triangles and log book and such that you mentioned.

HotRod, technically 1 lb of Methanol is all you need to carry to be all in the regs for hazmat. I'd bet that 5 gallon jug is a pound...BUT with that said, I have no roadside test kit for Methanol. You would need a lab to positively ID the contents of your 55 gallon barrel but why would you want to take that chance. Those regs are there for a reason. 

The carbon dioxide, nitrous and nitrogen are just gases and you would have to be carrying some weight (1000lbs off the top of my head without looking each one up) before they would put you in the regs.

OR,  If YOUR "whole family and some friends are in law enforcement" and you run "less than 1500 miles a year" then you can do as you please and then you can just say that you "feel i'm not skirting any laws yet". 

And on that note, I'm done. 

[VegasFlyer]

54 minutes ago, Big5er said:

HotRod, technically 1 lb of Methanol is all you need to carry to be all in the regs for hazmat. I'd bet that 5 gallon jug is a pound...BUT with that said, I have no roadside test kit for Methanol. You would need a lab to positively ID the contents of your 55 gallon barrel but why would you want to take that chance. Those regs are there for a reason. 

The carbon dioxide, nitrous and nitrogen are just gases and you would have to be carrying some weight (1000lbs off the top of my head without looking each one up) before they would put you in the regs.

OR,  If YOUR "whole family and some friends are in law enforcement" and you run "less than 1500 miles a year" then you can do as you please and then you can just say that you "feel i'm not skirting any laws yet". 

And on that note, I'm done. 

I am too!

It will probably be more productive for me to go try to teach my dog how to whistle....

[Darryl&Rita]

We need to start a drinking game. Take a shot every time Phil gives an exasperated sigh. Prune juice for some, something a little more spicy for us kids.

[Hot Rod]

I did know the minimum for placarding non-flammable gasses like nitrogen was 1000#, but was not sure what the minimum was for the methanol.  I assumed it was less but did not know it was down to any quantity (1#) to placard.  So even the 5 gallon jug is illegal.  Interesting.  One would assume 5 gallons of fuel for your vehicle would be ok, but I would have assumed wrong.  That makes it tough to even buy fuel at the track, you need to buy enough to keep the race car full, and have zero left over in the jug.  Can't pour it out, can't give it back.   OK, that's waaaaay off topic.  Sorry guys.

[Refuzn-To-Grow-Up]

3 hours ago, VegasFlyer said:

I am too!

It will probably be more productive for me to go try to teach my dog how to whistle....

Getting a dog to whistle?  Very easy to do!  Feed them "non-belchless" cucumbers and then about an hour later, when they start belching, feed them a lemon.  The lemon cause their mouth to pucker up and when they belch, they whistle.  They real trick is to get them to whistle "Dixie."  LMAO!

[Steve from SoCal]

Regarding the materials of trade or MOT exemption; the liquid volume is 44 lbs or 20 kilos, gas bottles can weigh up to 220 lbs or 100 kilos and total gas weight is 440lbs.     

 

There is a running debate on the welding web as to the net or gross weight for industrial gases.   

 

Steve

[Dollytrolley]

2 hours ago, Refuzn-To-Grow-Up said:

Getting a dog to whistle?  Very easy to do!  Feed them "non-belchless" cucumbers and then about an hour later, when they start belching, feed them a lemon.  The lemon cause their mouth to pucker up and when they belch, they whistle.  They real trick is to get them to whistle "Dixie."  LMAO!

Refewz............Dang if Grumps was not right again...........he used to say........"well kid, you'll know when to die......it's when the last hard question that has been asked HAS been ..........ANSWERED".......

So.......Refewz until Vegas Flyer came up with the problem of teaching a dog to whistle I felt that I had at least 10 years longer to live waiting for some smart-a$$  to come up with the answer but...........in NO time you come up with a detailed answer so now my future look fairly short at best.......

So......since we seemed to wondered a bit off the original posting I thought I might re-post below to refresh the thread (I drafted the original thread and I could not recall the original subject after the subject went to the ......DOGS..... )

 

Posted Monday at 04:13 PM ·

Every once in a while various threads pop up when someone ask some questions about HDT RV use that crosses the line into commercial use......sorta....or sorta not.....

SOMETIMES......Big5er gets dragged into the thread and often explains what various laws & regs have to say about HDT / RV uses and exemptions and then often some yahoo will pull Phils leash kinda hard and Phil often says something like.........."well someday the Big-Wigs at DOT will notice all these rich RV, Racer, Horsers, 4-H'rs , and Quilters that are driving 23 hours a day to make $$ and "Events" and they are actually driving a "commercial-vehicle" with RV plates and skirting all DOT rules AND then they will eliminate the HDT RV Exemption.......Poof....Gone ".............something like that.

Now a few years ago Phil and I got in a bit of a food fight mostly about a bunch of ropers that had HDT units registered as RV's and for the most part Phil was right and ........I was wrong in that roping events in AZ is outright gambling and $$$$ is the name of the game........so as Phil says "Horsers" and "Racers" are big-time cheaters of the DOT rules ...........Sorta.......Dolly is a pure trail rider and the only $$$$$ flow OUT of my pocket so the Dollytrolley is a pure charity-case.........HOWEVER this is where things get sticky......Dolly might be %1000 trail-horse but IF I could afford a rope Dolly could be a roper-horse.......until Dollymomma found about my "plan" and then I would be dead........

Anyhow here is where I am headed , is that to a DOT inspector a HDT towing a horse just might be a Roper or Barrel Racer of Jumper headed to Buckwheat TX to win big $$$$ and will drive ALL night Friday to get there and Drive ALL night Sunday to get back home with a pocket full of $$$$ and NO LOG BOOK at all or a CDL or a DOT Number or DOT Medical or......or......

Car , Bike, Off-Road racers are likely twice as bad as the Horsers.............

So is Phil right that the DOT will just throw a bolt of lighting and then all HDT RV's be no longer exempt from commercial regs???

I have commented on a few threads that I think that maybe before DOT would act …….that perhaps Insurance Companies might take steps to address the OUTLAW HDT RV'ers……...so…..are we now starting to see the Insurance Companies reacting to various “concerns” regarding HDT RV use???

A lot of folks have become “concerned” about having their HDT insurance dropped by Blue Sky and when they shop around the “HDT RV Insurance Market” seems to be in a “state of change” to say the least…….and not always has the “Change” been for a better or cheaper policy…...IF a policy can be had…..

One of the new “gotcha's” is that many underwriters are trying to “hard-hitch” a specific RV trailer to a specific RV and only allow bobtail operations TO and FROM fuel or close by repair services…….NO daily driver bobtailing……...a few policies allow bobtailing but the underwriters tend to be herd animals and so in the future more and more “Hard-Hitching” will likely be the norm. Trailers are getting a CLOSE look..... any trailer over 34 ft be comes “suspect” and stacker and large garage toyhaulers are very suspect since a LOT of “OUTLAWS” tend to favor these big trailers…...Tandem is a another “alert” “condition”……

Underwriters can be very picky with “Tiny” insurance market sectors such as HDT RV's the unit numbers are tiny and if they perceive that “Outlaws” are gaming the policies the underwriters just fold their cards and go into the next market that looks better……

I have owned a couple of light twin aircraft that fell out of favor a few decades ago and the underwriters folded up overnight and the value of my units fell a few hundred $K AND no one wanted to buy the units because……..where you gonna get insurance?

Now are we there yet…….no …..but where are we headed???

 

Drive on……...(Less insurance…..less bobtailing???)

[Big5er]

2 hours ago, Steve from SoCal said:

Regarding the materials of trade or MOT exemption; the liquid volume is 44 lbs or 20 kilos, gas bottles can weigh up to 220 lbs or 100 kilos and total gas weight is 440lbs.     

 

There is a running debate on the welding web as to the net or gross weight for industrial gases.   

 

Steve

Steve, check 173.6

Methanol is a packing group II, so 8 gallons or 66 pounds would be allowed under MOT, the aggregate (combined) weight of all HM under the MOT exemption can't exceed 440 lbs. Also, the liquid (not the gases in cylinders) would have to be in the manufacturers original packaging, or packaging of equal or greater strength (and I don't care to get outta bed to look that up), and marked with labels, the proper shipping name and the letters  "RQ". 

Then there is still the question of whether operating the race car is the "principal business" of the carrier, which it must be in order to qualify for the MOT exemption.