Short, Lite, Nimble, Sporty HDT

[Dollytrolley]

So 13 speed started a thread about the NEW truck he was ordering that is to be Short, Lite, Nimble, Sporty HDT  (SLNS-HDT) and a lot of folks chimed in about the concept so the thread got kinda thick in spots.....so........perhaps a new thread here might keep 13 speeds a less off track.......

 

Now out of the kindness of his heart Scrap has "Donated" FOUR brand NEW KWoppers to the thread so we can slice and dice ACTUAL trucks any way we desire........Thanks Scrap.

 

 Lets start with the shortest truck (#3) and it is: 13L 6X2, 197" WB, 100 Gal fuel tank @118", Dry=14,808 Lbs, Steer=9,280 lbs 62.67%, Drive=5,528 lbs 37.33%, C G=73.54"

Lets A$$ume 13 speeds loading for the first cut so.....

Steer is Zero Datum,  

Driver & Pass = 86" sta

Sleeper cargo= 100" sta

Hitch pin = 179" sta  (18" in front of drive axle)

Drive axle= 197"

Loads are: Driver & Pass=340 lbs /// Fuel 600 lbs /// sleeper cargo= 100 lbs/// Hitch and trailer pin load = 8,000 lbs

Results Truck #3 loading 1 :  

Steer= 10,511 lbs  44.07%

Drive= 13,337 lbs  55.93%

C G= 110.18"

Total Wt= 23,848 lbs

 

So.......comments ?  ?

 

So.......what do we want to change next........hitch location......pin load(s)......cabin loads......fuel loads.......tools.......junk...????

 

Come on guys......don't be shy........oh ya.....

 

Drive on........(Scrap Dollymoma wants first truck......purple)

 

 

 

 

 

[Jack Mayer]

Run the same truck with hitch in conventional HDTRV location......Snugged close to the axle, but behind. Assume an ET.  Please....

[Dollytrolley]

2 hours ago, Jack Mayer said:

Run the same truck with hitch in conventional HDTRV location......Snugged close to the axle, but behind. Assume an ET.  Please....

Jack,

Logical 2nd loading to be sure ......see results below.

Loading # 1

Lets start with the shortest truck (#3) and it is: 13L 6X2, 197" WB, 100 Gal fuel tank @118", Dry=14,808 Lbs, Steer=9,280 lbs 62.67%, Drive=5,528 lbs 37.33%, C G=73.54"

Lets A$$ume 13 speeds loading for the first cut so.....

Steer is Zero Datum,  

Driver & Pass = 86" sta

Sleeper cargo= 100" sta

Hitch pin = 179" sta  (18" in front of drive axle)

Drive axle= 197"

Loads are: Driver & Pass=340 lbs /// Fuel 600 lbs /// sleeper cargo= 100 lbs/// Hitch and trailer pin load = 8,000 lbs

Results Truck #3 loading 1 :  

Steer= 10,511 lbs  44.07%

Drive= 13,337 lbs  55.93%

C G= 110.18"

Total Wt= 23,848 lbs

 

Loading #2

Lets start with the shortest truck baseline (#3) and it is: 13L 6X2, 197" WB, 100 Gal fuel tank @118", Dry=14,808 Lbs, Steer=9,280 lbs 62.67%, Drive=5,528 lbs 37.33%, C G=73.54"

Steer is Zero Datum,  

Driver & Pass = 86" sta

Sleeper cargo= 100" sta

Hitch pin = 215" sta  (18" in AFT of drive axle)

Drive axle= 197"

Loads are: Driver & Pass=340 lbs /// Fuel 600 lbs /// sleeper cargo= 100 lbs/// Hitch and trailer pin load = 8,000 lbs

Results Truck #3 loading 2 :  

Steer= 9,049 lbs  37.94%

Drive= 14,799 lbs  62.06%

C G= 122.25"

Total Wt= 23,848 lbs

 

Ok.... we are on a roll.......whats next ?    

Drive axle??? 

How open to "Custom" can Volvo be on a new truck?

 

Drive on.........(Next........?)

 

 

[Jack Mayer]

So how about this one.

Volvo 630, Dual 125 tanks in forward position, 182" wb, assume the following unloaded weights (from my 610 shown below)  Front 10,520  Rear 8640  Actual scale weights with 300 gallons fuel and my "stuff" in the truck body. Represents a pretty realistic weight.

[Dollytrolley]

6 hours ago, Jack Mayer said:

So how about this one.

Volvo 630, Dual 125 tanks in forward position, 182" wb, assume the following unloaded weights (from my 610 shown below)  Front 10,520  Rear 8640  Actual scale weights with 300 gallons fuel and my "stuff" in the truck body. Represents a pretty realistic weight.

Dang Jack......ain't that easy on ones eyes.....the proportions are as good as it gets......If folks had a clue how capable that rig is it would seem that the pickup might on it's way to extinction......only if folks knew.

Now I am going to make a few A$$umsions here........I will assume that the twin 125 fuel tanks about 66 inches aft of the steer axle center line since the fuel door are about the aft edge of the cab passenger door and that's pretty close to what our Freightshaker Century door is.  Now I know where 250 gallons (250 gal X7.2=1,800 lbs) of fuel is, however it is hard for me to guess where the other 50 Gal (50gal X7.2 = 360 lbs) of fuel might be located…..for right now the location of the extra fuel is no problem since baseline machinery weight can be noted with any amount of fuel on-board and the location really only matters IF loading calculations involve higher or lower fuel weights than the original baseline fuel amounts.

Kinda splitting hairs here but often aircraft certified weights are listed with all fuel tanks empty EXCEPT the unusable fuel in each fuel is calculated into each tanks empty weight…...clear as mud huh?

The same type of location and mass of the “stuff” in the cab and body boxes is needed in order to calculate a “dry-baseline-Weight & Balance, however what we have here we might consider as your “Baseline-Dispatch-Weight & Balance” less humans, dogs, or trailer pin loads.

So here is the “Baseline-Dispatch-Weight & Balance”

Steer axle:= 10,520 lbs 54.91%

Drive axle:= 9,640 lbs 45.09%

Total Wt:= 19,160 lbs 100%

C G:= 82.07”

 

So…...how about we A$$ume a ….”Zero-fuel-zero-cargo” truck Weight & Balance with normal oil and coolant levels full………

So, we calculate assumptions as follows:

Truck Dispatch Wt & Bal (as above):

19,160 Lbs @ C G 82.07”

Subtract:

Main fuel tanks ; -1,800 lbs @ 66”

Aux fuel tank; -360 lbs @ 200” (Assumed 200” station location)

Condo Cargo: -50 lbs @ 100” (Assumed some electronics and…...Dr Pepper in the fridge)

Bed cargo (tools) -400 lbs @ 182” (Assumed centered evenly fore and aft of drive axle station location)

Total Subtracted -2,610 lbs

So now our ”Zero-fuel-zero-cargo” truck Weight & Balance with normal oil and coolant levels full is:

Steer axle:= 9,386 lbs 56.71%

Drive axle:= 7,164 lbs 43.29%

Total Wt:= 16,550 lbs 100%

C G:= 78.78”

 

Now the disclaimer…...I have made some assumptions here so.... as I have said before “the devil is in the details” however if you consider the capabilities of our HDT's a few hundred pounds off is mostly a rounding error…...that being said a hundred here and hundred there and pretty soon we find out that we have a extra 1,234 lbs that we just gained somehow…

Anyhow Jack your truck documented here is a pretty trick pony and with the M11 it is darn cheep ride, we really like our M11 it's plain Jane and has all the power we ever need with out fairly light weights…...win , win.

Anyhow maybe nnext it might be fun to hitch up a couple of different trailers to the old white truck next and then the real fun starts when we start .....trailer Wt & Bal abuse.... and watch the spreadsheet catch fire with 36 numbers in the blink of a eye change as we dump the black water tank……..now that's real geezer entertainment!!!

 

Drive on…….(Nice pony ride…..)

 

 

[HERO Maker]

Whoops!  Start those calculations over again.  He said he had 300 Gals of fuel.  Not 250 with your stated twin 125s.

[Jack Mayer]

1 hour ago, HERO Maker said:

Whoops!  Start those calculations over again.  He said he had 300 Gals of fuel.  Not 250 with your stated twin 125s.

That truck did have 300, but I asked for the twin 125. Mainly because you are not going to get twin 300's on with all the pollution stuff now on the trucks taking up valuable space. 

[GlennWest]

Think one could spec it out to be same length as a cc lb dually. That 22'ish. I could do away with Smart car. Dw having her own vechile complicate things. Most parks buck on 3 vechiles.  

[noteven]

Dolly -  Kenworth C500B winch tractor,  ISX 600hp / 2050lbs-ft  18 spd main 4 spd aux 20k front 3 x 35tonne Sisu planetary rears, 78000 Neway air suspension, 50 ton Braden winch live hydraulic crankshaft drive,  not singled

Base numbers: 

Front axle tare full fuel, rigging, big swamper,  18,000 Gross allowable 18,000 

Rear group tare:   28,670 Gross allowable no permit: 50,700

GCWR: 220,000 ...

16 ply rear tires...

sheet metal hood...

front tow hook...

cup holders...

.... this is in the wrong thread, right? 

[DamianF]

We drove through Dallas last Monday morning and saw several semi trucks being driven in a "sporty" fashion, with and without trailers. One more reason not to drive through Dallas again. A sporty semi?

[Alie&Jim's Carrilite]

 A sporty semi?

 

 

[DamianF]

Alie&Jim'sCarrilite, I clearly mean off track driving, as in possibly pulling a 5th wheel camping trailer. Except of course Dallas where the interstate must be on track from my experience. 

[13speed]

4 hours ago, GlennWest said:

Think one could spec it out to be same length as a cc lb dually. That 22'ish. I could do away with Smart car. Dw having her own vechile complicate things. Most parks buck on 3 vechiles.  

Kinda like I am doing I will be right between 21-21.5 with the VNR. My Ram 3500 CC long bed is 21.5. I can park that size anywhere. I will be just a bit taller but nowhere near you guys with 780's or equivalent. Everyone is so worried about playing big trucker with the biggest truck they can get when I am thinking I would rather have a smaller tractor and a bigger house behind it. 

 

[Dollytrolley]

5 hours ago, noteven said:

Dolly -  Kenworth C500B winch tractor,  ISX 600hp / 2050lbs-ft  18 spd main 4 spd aux 20k front 3 x 35tonne Sisu planetary rears, 78000 Neway air suspension, 50 ton Braden winch live hydraulic crankshaft drive,  not singled

Base numbers: 

Front axle tare full fuel, rigging, big swamper,  18,000 Gross allowable 18,000 

Rear group tare:   28,670 Gross allowable no permit: 50,700

GCWR: 220,000 ...

16 ply rear tires...

sheet metal hood...

front tow hook...

cup holders...

.... this is in the wrong thread, right? 

Hey Knot,

So..........

Base numbers: 

Front axle tare full fuel, rigging, big swamper,  18,000 Gross allowable 18,000 

Rear group tare:   28,670 Gross allowable no permit: 50,700

cup holders...

GCWR: 220,000 ...

Lets start with  Kenworth C500B winch tractor,  ISX 600hp / 2050lbs-ft  18 spd main 4 spd aux 20k front 3 x 35tonne Sisu planetary rears, 78000 Neway air suspension, 50 ton Braden winch live hydraulic crankshaft drive:  316" WB, 300 Gal fuel tank @118", Wet=46,6770 Lbs, Steer=18,000 lbs  38.57 %, Drive=28,670 lbs   61.43%, C G= 194.12"

Lets A$$ume Knot / Grumps loading for the first cut so.....

Steer is Zero Datum,  

Driver & Pass = 86" sta

Sleeper cargo= 100" sta

Bed cargo (D11T Cat) = 316" sta

Drive axle group avg= 316"sta

Cup holders (2)= 70" sta

Loads are: Driver & Pass=340 lbs /// Fuel 2,160 lbs /// sleeper cargo= 100 lbs/// Bed cargo load = 230,581 lbs/// Cup holders= 1.02 lbs X 2= 2.04 lbs

Results Truck  loading 1 :  

Steer= 18,317 lbs  6.60%

Drive= 259,376 lbs  93.40%

C G= 295.15"

Total Wt= 277,693 lbs

REMARKS:

Might want to pump up the driver rubber a bit and ........empty the cup holders.....

D10N is somewhat lighter....... might trade the D11 in on a D10??

 

Drive on........(CATing .....around)

 

[I'mdonewiththis forum]

Dolly, I don't suppose this would be an easy one to come up with the numbers, would it? Isaw this one just north of Lone Star, Texas last spring....

[noteven]

Dolly we need a jeep and a wheeler to haul a D11 on the public road... but we could... 

And

For an additional chuckle: here in Alberta you could register the whole shebang as a private truck/trailers for your own personal transport of your own personal D11 to and from your own personal 1/4 section sand box.... 

[Alie&Jim's Carrilite]

48 minutes ago, Mntom said:

Dolly, I don't suppose this would be an easy one to come up with the numbers, would it? Isaw this one just north of Lone Star, Texas last spring....

Rigs like that are common in the oil fields.  Heavy loads that make the roads roll in front of the tires... not that I Ever Saw Any trucks moving oil rigs down Texas state roads..... On Sunday...... at night.... weighing 140,000 plus lbs.  

[Dollytrolley]

10 hours ago, HERO Maker said:

Whoops!  Start those calculations over again.  He said he had 300 Gals of fuel.  Not 250 with your stated twin 125s.

 

9 hours ago, Jack Mayer said:

That truck did have 300, but I asked for the twin 125. Mainly because you are not going to get twin 300's on with all the pollution stuff now on the trucks taking up valuable space. 

My misunderstanding......I A$$umed that the 125 tanks comprised the 250 gal and that somewhere built into the bed was a 50 gal tank......no problem a couple keystrokes and the spreadsheet will update all weights axle %  and C G in a blink of a eye.

I am going to make a few A$$umsions here........I will assume that the twin 125 fuel tanks about 66 inches aft of the steer axle center line since the fuel door are about the aft edge of the cab passenger door and that's pretty close to what our Freightshaker Century door is.  Now I know where 250 gallons (250 gal X7.2=1,800 lbs) of fuel is, however it is hard for me to guess where the other 50 Gal (50gal X7.2 = 360 lbs) of fuel might be located…..for right now the location of the extra fuel is no problem since baseline machinery weight can be noted with any amount of fuel on-board and the location really only matters IF loading calculations involve higher or lower fuel weights than the original baseline fuel amounts.

Kinda splitting hairs here but often aircraft certified weights are listed with all fuel tanks empty EXCEPT the unusable fuel in each fuel is calculated into each tanks empty weight…...clear as mud huh?

The same type of location and mass of the “stuff” in the cab and body boxes is needed in order to calculate a “dry-baseline-Weight & Balance, however what we have here we might consider as your “Baseline-Dispatch-Weight & Balance” less humans, dogs, or trailer pin loads.

So here is the “Baseline-Dispatch-Weight & Balance”

Steer axle:= 10,520 lbs 54.91%

Drive axle:= 9,640 lbs 45.09%

Total Wt:= 19,160 lbs 100%

C G:= 82.07”

 

So…...how about we A$$ume a ….”Zero-fuel-zero-cargo” truck Weight & Balance with normal oil and coolant levels full………

So, we calculate assumptions as follows:

Truck Dispatch Wt & Bal (as above):

19,160 Lbs @ C G 82.07”

Subtract:

Main fuel tanks ; -1,800 lbs @ 66”

Aux fuel tank; -360 lbs @ 200” (Assumed 200” station location)

Condo Cargo: -50 lbs @ 100” (Assumed some electronics and…...Dr Pepper in the fridge)

Bed cargo (tools) -400 lbs @ 182” (Assumed centered evenly fore and aft of drive axle station location)

Total Subtracted -2,610 lbs

So now our ”Zero-fuel-zero-cargo” truck Weight & Balance with normal oil and coolant levels full is:

Steer axle:= 9,386 lbs 56.71%

Drive axle:= 7,164 lbs 43.29%

Total Wt:= 16,550 lbs 100%

C G:= 78.78”

So the update from 300 gal down to 250 gal is:

So here is the “Baseline-Dispatch-Weight & Balance”

Steer axle:= 10,520 lbs 54.91%

Drive axle:= 9,640 lbs 45.09%

Total Wt:= 19,160 lbs 100%

C G:= 82.07”

 

So…...how about we A$$ume a ….”Zero-fuel-zero-cargo” truck Weight & Balance with normal oil and coolant levels full………

So, we calculate assumptions as follows:

Truck Dispatch Wt & Bal (as above):

19,160 Lbs @ C G 82.07”

Subtract:

Main fuel tanks ; -1,800 lbs @ 66”

Condo Cargo: -50 lbs @ 100” (Assumed some electronics and…...Dr Pepper in the fridge)

Bed cargo (tools) -400 lbs @ 182” (Assumed centered evenly fore and aft of drive axle station location)

Total Subtracted -2,250 lbs

So now our ”Zero-fuel-zero-cargo” truck Weight & Balance with normal oil and coolant levels full is:

Steer axle:= 9,350 lbs 55.29%

Drive axle:= 7,560 lbs 44.71%

Total Wt:= 16,910 lbs 100%

C G:= 81.36”

Drive on.........(Light & nimble........nice ride)

[Dollytrolley]

3 hours ago, Mntom said:

Dolly, I don't suppose this would be an easy one to come up with the numbers, would it? Isaw this one just north of Lone Star, Texas last spring....

Tom,

No problem .........the spreadsheet really does not care how many axles the rig has it just crunches the numbers in the bat of a eye.....

I just need the baseline truck axle weights and locations from the most forward axle for each additional axle and then the locations of the variable loads (fuel, humans, cargo) and once the weights and locations are entered all revised axle weights are calculated in a instant.....

 

Drive on........(How many axles do you have today?)

 

 

[Jack Mayer]

Really, a 610 w/ISM fully loaded and ready to go at under 20K is not bad.  The D13 will be close. That is with a pretty hefty steel bed on it, too. That bed, with its contents and hitch added about 4000 lbs to the truck. THAT truck, stripped bare in the back, before the deck went on, and with only about 1/4 tank(s) fuel was just over 14,000 lbs. I almost squeaked under, and could have if I had used more fuel. It tried to get under at the time since in TX it was a registration cost increment.

I think you could build a truck that with a 7K pin weight allocation could stay under 26,000. And still have a body on it. 

[noteven]

 

 

[Dollytrolley]

10 hours ago, Jack Mayer said:

Really, a 610 w/ISM fully loaded and ready to go at under 20K is not bad.  The D13 will be close. That is with a pretty hefty steel bed on it, too. That bed, with its contents and hitch added about 4000 lbs to the truck. THAT truck, stripped bare in the back, before the deck went on, and with only about 1/4 tank(s) fuel was just over 14,000 lbs. I almost squeaked under, and could have if I had used more fuel. It tried to get under at the time since in TX it was a registration cost increment.

I think you could build a truck that with a 7K pin weight allocation could stay under 26,000. And still have a body on it. 

Jack,

You know we might be regressing a bit back to the long-hair and bellbottom days a bit here where maybe ….”Less”is “More”…...sorta

So in the 80's up at some of the well known Low-Speed Wind Tunnels the DOT and just about every truck builder started hogging a lot of tunnel time with some pretty cool concept Truck and Trailers and the numbers were VERY impressive over all…...of course the research led to the “Aero-Trucks” that we have today…..However the trailers while impressive in testing numbers never really have made it to market for several reasons.

The truck AND trailer Aero-Tech is not really rocket science and really not that expensive to design and build for a RV application but I am not sure what the market would be for a 15 MPG AVERAGE HDT RV??

The test number that was most stunning as I recall was the vast DECREASE in cruise horse power required for the Aero-rig combo thereby gaining the impressive MPG increases.

The basic concept was three parts, Aero-Tactor, Active-Faired-Hitch-To-Trailer and then a well faired trailer aft-body…..

Could be a very impressive RV…...

 

Drive on…….(Low drag RV…..)