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The Rv industry has been the same  death spiral as long as we have owned Rv's and that goes back  to 1985. I will get no better and the Rv industry will continue to sell Rv's.

Helen and I are long timers ..08 F-350 Ford,LB,CC,6.4L,4X4, Dually,4:10 diff dragging around a 2013 Montana 3402 Big Sky

SKP 100137. North Ridgeville, Ohio in the summer, sort of and where ever it is warm in the winter.

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59 minutes ago, richfaa said:

The Rv industry has been the same  death spiral as long as we have owned Rv's and that goes back  to 1985. I will get no better and the Rv industry will continue to sell Rv's.

Yep, and considering 2017 looks like a "banner year" for RV sales, nothing is going to change any time soon.  

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12 hours ago, rebel2017 said:

I guess I'll have to disagree with both of you on that one my dad used to sell Recreation Vehicles for a living he tells me all the time manufacturers no longer care about the product quality they're more concerned about the profit.

 

Meh, it's fine that you disagree, but how about some facts to prove an RV death spiral?  Like Rich said, this death spiral has been ongoing for 30 years or so.

Here are a few facts about the RV industry today; there was a 15% RV sales increase from 2015 to 2016.  In 2016, over 430K RVs were shipped from US manufacturers.  Those numbers come from an editorial in the May 2017 edition of "Trailer Life" magazine.  The editorial also says the numbers correlate to "seven straight years of RV sales increases".  If that is a "death spiral", I know of a LOT of industries that would love to have that kind of death spiral, too.  

Your dad's anecdotal observations are in line with many other people on this forum, including me.  However, there appear to be so many uninitiated buyers accepting what they get, manufactures and dealers have little to no incentive to improve product quality or service.

Yes, Evergreen and Forks are out of business.  But, two marques are NOT an industry.  If the RV industry is circling the drain, there is a big hair clog slowing everything down to a trickle.

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I didn't read every word of the article in the link above, but it largely pertains to NHTSA safety recalls and failure of at least 2 major manufacturers to properly report problems and initiate a recall. After they got fined, low and behold, the number of recalls went up dramatically. There is a parallel to the automobile business of course, when the busy bodies over at NHTSA have nothing better to do, lets poke the car makers and sure enough a bunch of recalls are issued, you hear it about it on the evening news for a little while and then it goes away. 

Statistically the problems that cause the recalls and their relationship to the number of fatalities or crashes is questionable at best. Besides, the vast number of consumers don't care enough to even take the vehicle back to the dealer on most recalls, the uncorrected rate is very high

Most of this has nothing to do with the overall quality of the average RV, as was pointed out in the article. And it is totally inconclusive as to whether it is trending up or down. Most of the people on this forum have  better than average knowledge about things RV. And they are usually disappointed, and have been for years. The RV industry intentionally builds a product for limited use designed to last a finite period of time, and here is the important part, to a price point. They realize that most of these vehicles will sit and rot unused or at least not moved until the entire vehicle has been rendered "obsolete" by passing fashion trends in the business ( how many pure white RV's are being made in 2017? Almost none) 10 years ago it was about the only color you could get). Build it to look nice on the lot, get it sold and move on. If your brand gets a bad reputation, just close the doors and reopen with the same management team 6 months later in another big building about 5 miles away. 

When you get north of say $200k on a motor home you should expect better. But the industry thinking is clear on this one. Average age of that purchaser is upper 50's- low 60's. They are betting that those individuals will "age out", no longer want to deal with motor home anything within 10 years of purchase. So make the vehicle to largely be serviceable for that length of time. It will be "out of style" anyway beyond it. 

It is all marketing 101, I don;t know why anyone is surprised. 

 

Jeff Beyer temporarily retired from Trailer Transit
2000 Freightliner Argosy Cabover
2008 Work and Play 34FK
Homebase NW Indiana, no longer full time

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52 minutes ago, remoandiris said:

Here are a few facts about the RV industry today; there was a 15% RV sales increase from 2015 to 2016.  In 2016, over 430K RVs were shipped from US manufacturers.  Those numbers come from an editorial in the May 2017 edition of "Trailer Life" magazine.  The editorial also says the numbers correlate to "seven straight years of RV sales increases".  If that is a "death spiral", I know of a LOT of industries that would love to have that kind of death spiral, too.

 

There is no doubt that the industry is in a major growth period, but the few companies which stick to high-quality standards also seem to continue to fail or to be bought up by one of the companies with profits placed above the importance of quality control. Quality control is a very expensive proposition that returns no income to the company so most companies do as little of it as they believe can be done and still survive. As long as the majority of those who buy RVs continue to put price above quality and fail to learn how to tell the difference, the industry will not improve significantly. Buyer education has improved but most sales continue to go to the company with the lowest prices with little regard to their history for quality products. 

Another observation of that article is that it does not appear to have any impact on towable RVs but only effects motorized ones. It would be interesting to see an in-depth study of the quality control side of the entire RV industry. NHTSA is not concerned about issues that do not happen on the highways, even if it does mean the RV burns up with the owners inside, as long as that doesn't ever happen while traveling the highways! 

Good travelin !...............Kirk

Full-time 11+ years...... Now seasonal travelers.
Kirk & Pam's Great RV Adventure

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34 minutes ago, Kirk Wood said:

Quality control is a very expensive proposition that returns no income to the company so most companies do as little of it as they believe can be done and still survive.

Er sorry Kirk I would beg to differ. It does return income 'eventually'. The thing is that most buyers are driving product manufacturing based on cost. The manufacturers are building to a price point. Weekend warriors are more about short term use and not long term use/fulltiming. And it's the short term buyer who is by far the largest market. There will always be small custom/expensive builders. Just as there are in the vehicle market.

The consumers are the problem. Buy a new car for $25000.00 and have an issue! And you are protected by warranties and various laws. Buy a Samsung Phone for just a few hundred dollars and the world comes crashing down if there is a problem with it. But buy an RV and you get a token warranty. Token service. Token quality. Buyers want gimmicks. The RV industry knows that. Until buyers are prepared to pay for quality nothing will ever change. 'We' can't complain about what 'we' have created.

 

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18 minutes ago, bruce t said:

The consumers are the problem. Buy a new car for $25000.00 and have an issue! And you are protected by warranties and various laws. Buy a Samsung Phone for just a few hundred dollars and the world comes crashing down if there is a problem with it. But buy an RV and you get a token warranty. Token service. Token quality. Buyers want gimmicks. The RV industry knows that. Until buyers are prepared to pay for quality nothing will ever change. 'We' can't complain about what 'we' have created.

 

Not really a fair analogy.  RVs are very much luxury items for the vast majority of buyers.  Cars and phones, not so much.  The auto and phone buying segment of the population is also MUCH larger than the RV buying segment.  I would not be surprised if people replace their cars and phones at a much higher rate than people replace their RVs, too.  

But, your point on quality is possibly true.  Manufacturers have no incentive to improve quality when building junk is still getting them a profit and increased sales.  Consumers are reluctant to pay more when many know there will be QC issues.  Double-edged sword, perhaps?

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I would point out that the articles referenced by the OP includes a story regarding the mis-designed fifth wheel that has been previously discussed (and de-bunked) on these forums. Reference Page 6:

"Earlier this year, they discovered that although their RV label says the vehicle is rated to hold 18,000 pounds, the three axles on the rig were rated for 5,200 pounds each. So, in reality, their 18,000-pound RV could only safely hold 15,600 pounds." 

This demonstrates such a fundamental misunderstanding of how a fifth wheel carries weight (plenty on weight on the hitch, BTW) that I take the rest of the articles with a grain of salt. 

Mark & Teri

2021 Grand Designs Imagine 2500RL, 2019 Ford F-350

Mark & Teri's Travels

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I've said for years that RVs are basically "junk". Now, that has to be a relative term....as compared to the build quality of a car is an appropriate comparison.  But why is that so?  It is because the consumer demands a cheap price and lots of "flash". SO that is what the RV industry tends to build. The consumer is guiding the process. When you have to meet a price point to be viable, and you have to put in "flash" to sell....what is left for infrastructure and quality components? Not much. And especially true if margin has to to go to a dealer network and not into the RV. 

There are many reasons that companies fail.Missing the market is one. There is not much market space at the top end of the RV industry.....any mis-step and a company is likely to fall out of that space.

Jack & Danielle Mayer #60376 Lifetime Member
Living on the road since 2000

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2016 DRV Houston 44' 5er (we still have it)
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"The RV industry intentionally builds a product for limited use designed to last a finite period of time, " This is true we need to remember that the "R" in Rv stands for recreational and that is what they are built for  not  fill time, long time or extended use. I for one being a long timer, just short of full timer use this 5th  for a lot more than recreation . We live in  it most of the year we did nearly 8K road miles in 2016 which is about average for any given year. Full timers live in them 24/7/365 and many do many more miles that we do. The first 4 rv's we had were used for recreation .Weekend get a ways and if lucky a week or two vacation during the summer.Being way up North our camping season was short

 Our camping trips were usually within a 1 or 2 hours drive. we did maybe  1K or 1.5K a year during that time. That is recreational use and what these things are built for not what we(I) use them for.

Helen and I are long timers ..08 F-350 Ford,LB,CC,6.4L,4X4, Dually,4:10 diff dragging around a 2013 Montana 3402 Big Sky

SKP 100137. North Ridgeville, Ohio in the summer, sort of and where ever it is warm in the winter.

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19 hours ago, rebel2017 said:

I purchased and paid cash for a 2016 Brand New High End 40’ 5th wheel from a company I wish not to disclose.

Why won't you name the manufacturer? Is it a secret? Or is there some other issue involved that keeps you from disclosing the info?

19 hours ago, rebel2017 said:

When I got the 5th wheel over 52 problems existed with the 5th wheel.

Problems such as? Crooked switch covers? Loose molding? 

19 hours ago, rebel2017 said:

The Recreation Vehicle Master Tech notified the manufacture the 2016 40’ 5th Wheel was unsafe for habitation

And what are these issues, that can not be corrected, that made your 5th wheel "unsafe for habitation"? 

There seems to be a lot of "secrets" that you will not disclose that make your story seem rather...uh...shady?

Anyone with as much experience with RV's as you claim should be aware of the points that have been mentioned here. The manufacturers build what the people will buy. I never go to RV shows. They are there displaying their "lite" trailers....junk in other words, but that is what the majority of people want. The weekend trip people. You claim you bought a "high end" 5th wheel but won't name any names. So what do you consider "high end"? I have ordered a new 5th wheel that I consider to be on the high end of "mid-range". It is not "high end" by any means. I won't tell you how good a deal I got but the MSRP was over $160k. So what do you call "high end"?

Do I expect issues with my new 5er? Of course I do. I plan to live in their lot for about a week, going through my new trailer and having issues corrected. I am taking a friend, who owns the largest independent RV repair facility on the east side of Houston, with me. I'm betting the two of us will nit-pick that thing to death. But does that signal a death spiral for the RV industry? Not hardly. I did the same sort of thing with the last house I bought. Does that mean the housing industry is in a death spiral also? 

MY PEOPLE SKILLS ARE JUST FINE.
~It's my tolerance to idiots that needs work.~

2005 Volvo 780 VED12 465hp / Freedomline transmission
singled mid position / Bed by Larry Herrin
2018 customed Mobile Suites 40KSSB3 

2014 smart Fortwo

 

 
 
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4 hours ago, Big5er said:

Why won't you name the manufacturer? Is it a secret? Or is there some other issue involved that keeps you from disclosing the info?

Problems such as? Crooked switch covers? Loose molding? 

And what are these issues, that can not be corrected, that made your 5th wheel "unsafe for habitation"? 

There seems to be a lot of "secrets" that you will not disclose that make your story seem rather...uh...shady?

He must be referring to the Mobile Suites he posted about in other threads.

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Deflecting the conversation onto me with your insults still didn't answer the questions presented although it was a nice attempt. No one here has "attacked" you. I simply asked you a few very simple questions and posted my opinion why the article you posted is inaccurate and questioned why someone with your supposed experience would believe such a one-sided diatribe.

As for the questions I asked, what possible "legal reason" can you have for not posting "true and factual" information about the manufacturer (other than a non-disclosure agreement which your whole rant would seem to violate)? Again, it makes your story seem to lack credibility since no one else here has any "legal" issues with outing the maker of a poor product. 

You also skimmed over this list of 52 defects when I asked about them and totally ignored the issue of your 5er being "unsafe for habitation". 

Quote

 I refused delivery (as should anyone) and got jerked around for a month.   

 After many emails between the factory and myself they took the unit back and gave my money back.

I am really confused now. You have three other threads where you complain that DRV will not fix your issues. Last week in one thread you said "the DRV Service Manager is refusing to fix the problem.". If you refused delivery. as you said here, then why do you care if they fix it or not? It's not your RV any longer, or is it? I'm back to thinking, how did I phrase it originally...shady?

As for the cost of your rig, in my opinion, you didn't make it into the high end of the spectrum. If remoandiris is correct, while it is a nice rig, DRV lacks the custom work that would put them in the "high end RV" bracket (again, in my opinion). 

Happy Easter to all, and don't let anyone fool you....there really is such a creature as the Easter Bunny. 

MY PEOPLE SKILLS ARE JUST FINE.
~It's my tolerance to idiots that needs work.~

2005 Volvo 780 VED12 465hp / Freedomline transmission
singled mid position / Bed by Larry Herrin
2018 customed Mobile Suites 40KSSB3 

2014 smart Fortwo

 

 
 
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Well, $147K is hardly high end now a days in my opinion.  Having bought two custom built high end rigs $147K wouldn't come close to buying either one.  I share Big 5er's curiosity , what would make a rig uninhabitable and why would you not want to share such important info with everyone here for their edification?  Sorry you had such a terrible experience with your rig, Best wishes, Jay

2015 Continental Coach Elegance by Forks RV, 41'; 2015 FL M2 112, DD 13, by 2L Custom Trucks; Trailer Saver air hitch; '48 Navigoddess with a Rand McNally GPS

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