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Using a gooseneck/fifth wheel adapter with HDT- Opinions?


terreneuve

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Hello everyone,

I am planning my HDT build and will only be towing a 12-16000 pound smaller fifth wheel.

Instead of installing a air ride hitch such as ET Senior/Junior I was thinking of using a gooseneck mount with a E-trailer style gooseneck fifth wheel adapter.

https://www.etrailer.com/Gooseneck-and-Fifth-Wheel-Adapters/Convert-A-Ball/CAB-C5G.html

The adapter is rated 4000 lbs on pin and 20,000 lb tow weight.

Any one have any experience with this setup?

All opinions  welcome!

 

John

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The leverage this produces on the trailer pin box and framing area usually voids the manufacture's warranty.  

Look at the difference in framing a horse trailer or a purpose built goose neck trailer has in the area the neck drops.  Now compare that to a regular RV 5th wheel.

Alie & Jim + 8 paws

2017 DRV Memphis 

BART- 1998 Volvo 610

Lil'ole 6cyl Cummins

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Goose neck trailers are built with goose neck frames.  Fifth wheel trailers are meant to be used with 5th wheel hitches.

Some manufacturers will allow the use of a Goose Box with their frame.  I do not agree with the Goose box design being any different than a goose neck adapter with an added cushion.  

You notice that ALL of the big rig over the road drivers use a 5th wheel hitch, not a goose neck.

 

Ken

Amateur radio operator, 2023 Cougar 22MLS, 2022 F150 Lariat 4x4 Off Road, Sport trim <br />Travel with 1 miniature schnauzer, 1 standard schnauzer and one African Gray parrot

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The lighter the trailer, the less robust the frame will be particularly in the frontal area where the pin box is. It will most likely be a Lippert frame. Google Lippert frame issues, you'll get an education. Trailer this light is a perfect candidate for air pin box adapter, it would definitely be too light for an ET.

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Phoenix - Can you please expand on this?  

My trailer is about 12500 empty with a 3000 pin (Mfg Spec).  Gross is 18000 which makes the pin approximately 4300.  Would this also, be too light for an ET?  This is what I was planning for my HDT build.  Am I going in the wrong direction?  What hitch should I be looking for?

I want to be able to have the capacity if we ever change trailers to something larger.  This isn't the plan today but who knows what tomorrow brings.

Av8r3400
2012 Volvo VNL 730 D13 iShift & 2021 Grand Design Momentum 397TH

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I'd rather die trying to live - Than live trying not to die.   -Leonard Perry

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The ET was designed originally for trailers with GVW of 18K and above and pin weight of 4K to 6K. The airbags on ET Sr. are max rated at 100 psi and 10K total capacity (all airbags are max rated at 100 psi with 200 psi being the max pressure for "jounce"). The "sweet spot" is 40-60 psi (design area) which says that 4K-6K is the ideal pin weight for the ET Sr., the airbags are linear.

Nothing bad happens if the pin weight is above that (my fifth's pin weight is 6,500 lb), or below that, but too far in either direction and the airbags become less and less effective. Too soft (and "floaty) below 3,500 lb and too hard above 7,500 lb.

For higher pin weights I designed a Super Sr. (and I'm working on something even "moosier"), as far as the "floaty" issue I have prototype that will address that for lower pin weight rigs. I'll have it at the ECR.

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7 hours ago, Alie&Jim's Carrilite said:

The leverage this produces on the trailer pin box and framing area usually voids the manufacture's warranty.  

Look at the difference in framing a horse trailer or a purpose built goose neck trailer has in the area the neck drops.  Now compare that to a regular RV 5th wheel.

X2. There is a reason goose-necks are usually seen as stock/horse trailers or for medium-duty hauling. The goose-neck trailer chassis are designed and built much differently than a fifth wheel RV and installing a goose-neck adapter on a fifth wheel RV is putting your pin box and the front of the trailer chassis at risk for failure. There are reasons 18-wheelers aren't goose-necks.

Rob 

2012 F350 CC LB DRW 6.7
2020 Solitude 310GK-R, MORryde IS, disc brakes, solar, DP windows
Full-time since 8/2015

 

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With our dually, it was a pain to get the gooseneck ball lined up and that was with a rear window. I can see it being a real pain with an HDT. We did the reverse and switch our gooseneck to a 5th wheel pin as it is much more forgiving when trying to hitch up and works well with a simple camera to see it with the HDT.

Dave

2005 Freightliner Century S/T, Singled, Air ride ET Jr. hitch
2019 46'+ Dune Sport Man Cave custom 5th wheel toy hauler
Owner of the 1978 Custom Van "Star Dreamer" which might be seen at a local car show near you!

 

Check out http://www.hhrvresource.com/

for much more info on HDT's.

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9 hours ago, phoenix2013 said:

The lighter the trailer, the less robust the frame will be particularly in the frontal area where the pin box is. It will most likely be a Lippert frame. Google Lippert frame issues, you'll get an education. Trailer this light is a perfect candidate for air pin box adapter, it would definitely be too light for an ET.

As this is a learning curve for me am I correct to assume you recommend a "air pin box adapter" with a gooseneck hitch? Even a ET junior would not be a good match?

I hope to be at ECR . (Phoenix2013)Are you there for the whole event as If you wouldn't mind I would like to show you what I am trying to achieve with my deck HDT design.

It's very hard to explain here but I won't need to plan for expansion to a bigger/heavier trailer as I will max out on overall length.

Thanks to everyone great input!

 

John

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You should look in to the Andersen ultimate hitch.  http://www.andersenhitches.com/catalog/ultimate-5th-wheel-connection.aspx

All the advantages of a gooseneck and none of the disadvantages.  Lightweight - 35 lbs - easy to install/remove and no slack in the hitch.

******************************************************
John, Jean and (the late) Molly & Mea (the puppy) Springer Spaniels
2016 F250 CCSB w/Andersen Ultimate Hitch
2014 Shasta Phoenix 27RL XLT
BataanMissing.com - AirSafety.com
******************************************************

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51 minutes ago, JohnNJean said:

You should look in to the Andersen ultimate hitch.  http://www.andersenhitches.com/catalog/ultimate-5th-wheel-connection.aspx

All the advantages of a gooseneck and none of the disadvantages.  Lightweight - 35 lbs - easy to install/remove and no slack in the hitch.

John,

He is planning to use a HDT to pull his trailer. The Anderson hitch might be OK for a LDT pickup but I have never heard of or seen one on a HDT. They are not the best choice in the application in my opinion.

2017 Kenworth T680
2015 DRV 38RSSA Elite Suites
2016 Smart Prime

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9 hours ago, GeorgiaHybrid said:

John,

He is planning to use a HDT to pull his trailer. The Anderson hitch might be OK for a LDT pickup but I have never heard of or seen one on a HDT. They are not the best choice in the application in my opinion.

Sorry, I missed the HDT part.  Andersen does make a shorter model for flatbed trucks, but it may be to tall for an HDT.  May be possible to use a regular gooseneck ball and the Andersen kingpin adapter.

I find the Andersen hitch to be a huge improvement as it not only takes all the slack out of the hitch, but isn't likely to disconnect if the hitch malfunctions or someone pulls the lever.  It is limited to 24,000 lbs, though.

******************************************************
John, Jean and (the late) Molly & Mea (the puppy) Springer Spaniels
2016 F250 CCSB w/Andersen Ultimate Hitch
2014 Shasta Phoenix 27RL XLT
BataanMissing.com - AirSafety.com
******************************************************

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11 hours ago, terreneuve said:

As this is a learning curve for me am I correct to assume you recommend a "air pin box adapter" with a gooseneck hitch? Even a ET junior would not be a good match?

I hope to be at ECR . (Phoenix2013)Are you there for the whole event as If you wouldn't mind I would like to show you what I am trying to achieve with my deck HDT design.

It's very hard to explain here but I won't need to plan for expansion to a bigger/heavier trailer as I will max out on overall length.

Thanks to everyone great input!

 

John

John, it's all a question of matching the trailer to the fifth pulled or planned to be pulled. ET Jr, in spite of the Jr., is a high capacity hitch, trailers close to 30K GVW and 7K pin weights are being pulled with it. The only reason for the Jr. is that it has slightly smaller and lower profile. It was designed to be use in a space previously "occupied" by other smaller air hitches and on trucks which already have a bed preventing installation of the ET Sr. ET Sr. has to be slid in from the rear of the frame rails.

Also ET hitches want to see around 4,000 lb of pin weight as a minimum to properly activate the airbags. Pretty much any hitch will work if you match it to the trailer. There are scores of hitches that work well with trailers pulled by pickups, there are pinbox air hitches to provide cushioning (on smaller trailers), frame mounted air hitches, etc.

Recently, a trailer manufacturer was installing air pinboxes on sizeable fifths as an "accessory" that would take care of the hitch need. They had to stop when customers were reporting that they were blowing out the single airbag in these. That single airbag was never designed to carry over 4,000 lb in pinweight.

I know of a customer running a TrailerSaver with over 8K in pinweight. He "gingerly" watches as it inflates to 135 psi. At that pressure those airbags are as hard as a rock and pretty much useless. 

There is another issue besides can the hitch carry this or that pinweight? Can the hitch carry the GVW of the fifth pulled? 4K or 5K or 6K pinweights can come with 18-22-27-32K GVW trailers. If the hitch can carry the pinweight but then it's overall construction is lightweight, or frankly flimsy, it will not be in a pretty shape in 2-3 years of pulling. There is a reason why ET weighs 750 pounds.

We plan to be at the ECR for the most of the week (might leave early), I'll be happy to give you any advise on hitches or bed building.

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8 hours ago, phoenix2013 said:

John, it's all a question of matching the trailer to the fifth pulled or planned to be pulled. ET Jr, in spite of the Jr., is a high capacity hitch, trailers close to 30K GVW and 7K pin weights are being pulled with it. The only reason for the Jr. is that it has slightly smaller and lower profile. It was designed to be use in a space previously "occupied" by other smaller air hitches and on trucks which already have a bed preventing installation of the ET Sr. ET Sr. has to be slid in from the rear of the frame rails.

Also ET hitches want to see around 4,000 lb of pin weight as a minimum to properly activate the airbags. Pretty much any hitch will work if you match it to the trailer. There are scores of hitches that work well with trailers pulled by pickups, there are pinbox air hitches to provide cushioning (on smaller trailers), frame mounted air hitches, etc.

Recently, a trailer manufacturer was installing air pinboxes on sizeable fifths as an "accessory" that would take care of the hitch need. They had to stop when customers were reporting that they were blowing out the single airbag in these. That single airbag was never designed to carry over 4,000 lb in pinweight.

I know of a customer running a TrailerSaver with over 8K in pinweight. He "gingerly" watches as it inflates to 135 psi. At that pressure those airbags are as hard as a rock and pretty much useless. 

There is another issue besides can the hitch carry this or that pinweight? Can the hitch carry the GVW of the fifth pulled? 4K or 5K or 6K pinweights can come with 18-22-27-32K GVW trailers. If the hitch can carry the pinweight but then it's overall construction is lightweight, or frankly flimsy, it will not be in a pretty shape in 2-3 years of pulling. There is a reason why ET weighs 750 pounds.

We plan to be at the ECR for the most of the week (might leave early), I'll be happy to give you any advise on hitches or bed building.

Great! Will you have  any Jackalopee units with you for sale?

John

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